ThunderJam

Redstar's new map, quantum arena's tiles, halo's new map Altho I havn't bee on ss in like a week due to some temporary stuff thats come up irl

It would be totally uncons!@#$%^&*uional to ban homosexuality and therefore of course I wouldn't support it.

You're the only one playing word games astro. You say the preachers are teaching we should hate gays, and then you back up a step and say they are just teaching that gays lifestyle is morally wrong. Theres a difference. Find me a protestant preacher who is preaching that we should HATE gays and I will paypal you a couple bucks.

What an ugly skin

Lol that actually made me laugh, I can just imagine you saying that while rolling your eyes.

You simply don't know what your talking about. Isn't that their right like anyone else? Are we in Saudi Arabia? If we are then I give this one to you. If not then why is religion suddenly holy and any criticism not allowed? What happened to democracy? Are gay people not afforded the same rights as everyone? Like NB said' date=' what? lol When is religion suddenly holy? your really a case astro You obviously think my beliefs are wrong, do you hate me? I doubt it. Hate is a very strong word my friend. And no, there aren't plenty of protestant preachers teaching it. And even if the majority of the christian leaders are dead set against gay marriage, that STILL doesn't mean they hate gays. Like NB said, you have all had us pegged as these crazy radical neocons when really we are not much different from the rest of you. I really think the reason why you guys say "Every christian i've met has been... x y and z" is because you havn't realized how many seemingly "normal" people you've met are actually Christians.

You just said it again. Saying we hide gay hating with the bible is stating that we hate gays. And no one thinks the bible is telling us to HATE gays. How many times do i have to say this? Do you think that you either love or hate someone? Do you see everything in black and white? We think it's wrong, i personally think its gross, but we're not gonna go around refusing to talk to a gay person, committing hate crimes, shooting gay people, you need to stop thinking all christians are these radical people who go nuts over every little thing the bible speaks out about. Thank you bak. I don't know about LOVE gay people, but you obviously think the same thing I do. As to marriages, the only thing that really bugs me is the photos and everything of gay people flaunting their weddings. Like you see the outrageous pictures of one in a gown and their leaving the chapel all happy. Give me a break that's like trying to shove their gayness in tradition's face. I don't care if they have some small state ceremony to confirm their legal status together and then go shred their buttholes for the rest of their lives. I just hate them doing a parody act of a religious service.

I know, but im the main person arguing my side of the debate so I'm kinda taking the statements as if theyre directed to me.

That's what I wanted to hear. So you can have a conservative democrat, and therefore I could like some of what they say. Just like you could have an atheist who agrees with some topics of mine. And again bashing christians saying we HATE gays. How many times we gotta say that isn't the case? I honestly think you just calculatedly say stuff to try and incense me, your just being plain obnoxious.

Thought this was gonna be kept tighter than it has been. We have a ton of people now who really don't do much development for the community. Basically the people who say "I can make maps and tile maps" or "edit settings." I wish it was kept harder to get into so the only people in it are people that zones would seriously pursue to help them. As it is right now, aqua and me alone probably match the rest of the team's development output (cept coders), 2 vs how many?

Since this is a hot topic, ill address the woman serving man deal. Yes you're right the bible does say that God created them to serve man and in many places it specifically says the man is the head of the house, etc. Make sure you also take into consideration the lifestyle differences. The jobs that were available back then were hunting, farming, metalwork, carpentry, none of which are physically easy, and thus the men were obviously more suited to the tasks. Don't peg me as someone who says women aren't capable, I live in a household with several very athletic and capable girls. I'm just stating that at a time when men were bringing in the majority of the income/sustenance for the family, it's more understandable to say woman were "serving" them. Although personally I wouldn't value running the home as any less worthy than working a job. Sever: Government making being gay illegal? I don't see how that's even possible, but ill continue on as if you meant gay marriage illegal. My own opinion on gay marriage is simply that I feel its a shame to change such a long-time tradition of marriage being between a man and a woman. I have no problem with gays living together, and adopting a child (even though I think that might not be good for the kid) because, legally a man and woman could do that too. I just don't really like the idea of the marriage ceremony and all that. I'd prefer something more along the lines of common-law marriages, where your considered married for legal benefits, etc. Touchy topic. And astro, rofl, theres like no christians that want evolution in schools banned lol. You think of us as so oldschool dude. I just wish they acknowledged evolution as a theory in schools. Fine with me if they don't explain creationism as another theory, but at least say that evolution is a theory, and that other theories exist. A whole generation is growing up thinking that evolution is the only idea out there, when the truth is neither evolution or creationism or w/e else can be proven to be true.

I then read Astro's post which said: And i thought, being against gay marriage is exactly why Christianity is not about "love, love and more love". Gays love eachother and that love is no less significant than the love felt between a man and a woman. Christianity is about loving the few and hating the many. So if you're gay, or have an abortion, or support either of these things, or are a member of another religion, or are an atheist or even a critical agnostic, then prepare to be hated on by hypocrites preaching love like it's the be all and end all when it clearly isn't. Gay marriage is considered wrong by christians because God created man and woman to be counterparts to each other, and love was specifically designed to be between them. Homosexuality was written to be a perversion of God's creation, etc. However saying we hate gays is wrong. I don't mind gay people. I mean, i personally think its disgusting and wrong and don't wanna hang out with gay people, but if they want to be gay, whatever, they can gay. I would still think this if I wasn't Christian too, so astro saying that our morals only are how they are because of our religion is also wrong. I don't hate people that have abortions either. I mean I think its cruel, but I can understand where their coming from, I think theyre probably making the wrong choice in most cases, but I don't hate them for that. The thing is astro, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not "we are christians, ugh now we gonna live by what the bible says, be just like jesus, need to agree with the morals the bible says." Rather, its "Looking at things logically, i believe the bible to be true, its morals seem good to me, I want to abide be them." You keep saying non-christians just live by what they think are good morals because they think its the right thing to do, thats the exact same with us. Christianity is with the exception of conversions that mostly happen with poor, uneducated people is pushed on toddlers by conditioning them from very early on because they have no ability to reason whether it is true and then later on in life when they can reason mostly start with the premise "Christianity is true" and work from there rather than allow for free reason. For me it took years to be able to throw off my parents' conditioning and become an agnostic. I can tell you it was a miserable experience realizing people probably die and that's it and there's probably no higher purpose other than what we make of it. I could easily see how some people are too weak to be willing to realize how impossible Christianity is and accept the unknown. What you seem to ignore is the fact that while agnostics and atheists are forced to have morals based on empathy since they don't believe in a watching deity Christians do so because of this deity. This philosophy causes this empathy development to be stunted due to the lack of need and thus Christian morality tends to be more about rigid scripture and less about logic. That's what makes it so dangerous. This is easy to manipulate and someone like Bush can come in and say he's a man of God and people like you will follow him simply because you think he's sincerely Christian. Sever to be fair you can justify anything with the thousands of pages of often conflicting scripture. The way you find a line in the bible opposing gay marriage you find one supporting slavery and you find lots supporting sexism. The groups that reject a literal interpretation or one manipulated for personal hatred are fine, but those are in the minority in the US and when they try to be progressive they are bitterly opposed by the rest. Christians' empathy is stunted? What are you smoking? Sure most Christian parents raise their kids to believe their religion from an early age, I assume you will probably raise your kids to believe that Christianity is wrong. Is there a problem trying to teach that what you believe is right? Of course their trying to say that a true atheist is liberal. Just like how they're trying to say that every Christian is a hyprocrital, baby-killing, gay-hating, m!@#$%^&* murderer. They're blanketing me and the others here with general statements when they know nothing of what our faith is really like.

The thing is astro, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not "we are christians, ugh now we gonna live by what the bible says, be just like jesus, need to agree with the morals the bible says." Rather, its "Looking at things logically, i believe the bible to be true, its morals seem good to me, I want to abide be them." You keep saying non-christians just live by what they think are good morals because they think its the right thing to do, thats the exact same with us.

So much for not going to post any more :/ Guess I can't bring myself to back down as long as some people keep bashing. You can be pro-life and no-sex-before-marriage and no-gay-marriage, without being a christian. I would still vote for someone who was pro-choice If i liked enough other things about them. You put words in my mouth saying "I know you don't want to admit to yourself that you'd never really vote for an atheist." Stop bull!@#$%^&*ting me. I know myself perfectly fine, and am a strong person or else I wouldn't be posting here arguing my faith. And yes we think we shoudl try to emulate Jesus, but that doesn't mean that we don't see the truth in every other reason for being moral. You say "I try to be moral because its the right ting to do and because I consider the repercussions." I'm really no different, I think its the right thing to do, and part of that rightness, in my opinion, is because it is emulating Jesus. And you make emulating Jesus out to be this burdensome duty. It's not like religion is forced on me and it's a weight to emulate him. I want to. If you believe someone was perfect and sinless and the son of god, why not want to be like him? Just like you said earlier, "If I admire someone, I try to emulate that person." That's exactly what us christians are doing, and your mocking us for it and calling it a flaw.

I didn't say as long as he has "christian values." If I like his stances on topics, and if I agree with his morals, That's a plus, he doesn't have to be christian. You don't have to be a christian at all to have the morals or the stances. Half of everyone's posts have been saying that non-christians are still good people, and now your saying that they woudl have to be christian to have my morals? Your dumb. You say that christians try to be good like everyone else in one post, and next your saying that non-christians couldn't have the same morals as christians? Which is it? All you do is twist words astro, you play devils advocate, try to bring out the worst and pick apart every post, and you don't acknowledge any of the good, grounded logic we use. And AGAIN you say we were raised from day 1 to be good "because God is watching." DID YOU EVEN READ MY LAST POST? DO YOU HAVE EYES? Hopefully this is going to be the last post I make in this topic, because im tired of arguing with you when you just ignore my statements, and continue !@#$%^&*uming and typing crap. A debate goes two ways, and your only talking and not listening.

Good morals in my perspective, aka morals that are similar to me. Obviously I'm not saying everything person who calls themself a christian just has good morals, but if I think a political candidate is a genuine christian, they his morals will probably be similar to mine, which will be a positive reason for me to support them. And yes the bible does say its by faith, read before you say we twist everything. It does say to do good works and everything else to, but it does not say that it is these thigns that get you into heaven. And having good morals because "God is watching" is not our mindset either. AGAIN you are bringing up tactics of old fire-and-brimstone teachers who tried to scare you into belief. I believe I should act well because I'm tryign to honor God through my actions. If we are made in God's image, we should try to live as close to his standards as possible, and since God is holy, that standard is one that we can continue to improve towards forever.

I don't see any reason I would lie. I would have voted for Bush in his first election, but voted against him after his first term. Also, I would not have any problem voting for an atheist, as I don't think the candidates religion really matters. In my mind being Christian would be a plus, but it would more be a plus because I would ensure me (possibly unjustly) that the candidate has good morals. Sure, I'd vote for an atheist as long as he has morals and stances that I still like.

I guess I should have been a little clearer, I didn't mean they didn't read anything in church, but again, it is stuff the church is reading to them basically, there not going out on their own, and reading the bible daily, learning from it. It's like being s!@#$%^&* fed, but only getting what the church wants to feed you. Sure the catholic doctrine says the believe in Jesus, but they've become more and more focused on works, to the point that works is the primary concern. And yes, I know plenty of catholics that go to church weekly, because they think if they don't they won't get into heaven, but besides that, their lives show no impact from christianity at all. Some of them treat it like a chore. Im not denying that there are catholics who are GENUINE, because I also know a smaller percentage who have genuine faith and really follow the bible, but that group is a minority among the other catholics. Sigh astro, do you even read my posts? I AM IMPOSING MY BELIEFS? I AM CLAIMING AMERICA IS ONLY CHRISTIANS? IM DENYING THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE? You're a joke, if your're going to debate, then actually debate and stop being a fool. Otherwise why don't you leave. I have never said america is only christians or denied the separation. As for imposing my belifs, read below, which is what I said LAST POST:

Almost all of Christianity falls under the category of protestants or catholics. In your 30,000 denominations your including thousands of groups that have created their own name for the tiny littledoctrine variations, which do not have any serious effect on the underlying message of the gospel. The major doctrinal differences are between catholics and protestants, as categories. Since we're all under christianity, and christianity takes a strike, we all get a strike? That's the same mentality behind racism and I think that is innapropriate. protestants also prosecuted catholics. Also, what makes you think protestants are so special? Catholics don't teach that attending service once a week and saying repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers gets you into heaven. But protestants do teach that simple belief is all it takes. I mean, nothing in our world even happens simply because you believe one way or the other. How great of a religion that is, where simply by thinking you can get to heaven. Hmm, give me an example of when the protestants persecuted catholics? There might be some isolated cases, but for the most part, the protestants have never had much power compared to the ins!@#$%^&*ution, banking, land, and power the catholic church has so there really isn't much of a way for protestants to have done so. Catholics believe in redemption by works. That is why you hear "Good CAtholic" and "bad catholic." They think that their entrance to hinges relies heavily on their works, ritual, repe!@#$%^&*ion of prayers for forgiveness. My church would call this "legalistic," they are hung up on details but don't focus on the mindset that should be behind those details. I live in a HEAVILY catholic area, and the majority of those people read the bible maybe 3 times a year. When the Bible says the that only way to teh father (in heaven) is through jesus, and they think its by works, and praying to saints, that's not true christianity to me. Problem is, the average catholic doesn't realize this flaw because they never friggin read the bible to discover that what they've been following in church is not supported in the bible. And in case someone brings this up: Yes protestants still beleive would should commit good works, be servants, but we don't think thats what merits us pasasge into heaven. Hmm, ok good point on Salem Witch hunts. I would point out however, these are more of an internal affair within the religion, rather then persecuting people outside the religion. Meh, nevermind, guess you still got me on that one. Pushing the massacre of american indians on the protestants is a stretch though, and even suggesting the holocaust was because of protestants is outrageous. Britain killing in the name of "converting the heathens," mhmm, valid argument I guess. Are you going to hold every African tribe who conquered neighbors in the name of their religion at fault too though? Do protestants today conquer other nations to try and force our religion on people? We don't even have a unified government, army, etc, so obviously not. And te KKK, would you say the KKK is a group sponsored/supported by Protestants in general? Obviously not, its a bunch of radical dipASSS who by their own beliefs shouldn't even qualify as the christians they claimed they are/were. Thank you, again are protestants commiting m!@#$%^&* murder today astro? Are we enslaving/imperializing with our non-existant armies? The problem is that there are still a lot of people like Pull who walk around saying we're all !@#$%^&*ed unless we convert to Christianity. Christians are still trying to impose their ideas upon non Christians. All of these tragic events started off harmless. You can't expect people to blindly trust a group or groups responsible for many of the man caused travesties of the past two millenia. Pull is a flash to old fire-and-brimstone evangelical preachers. This is just a venture, but I would be willing to suggest that the reason you guys say that SO MANY christians are pushy and trying to convert and stuff like that, is because all the Christians who aren't doing that, you haven't recognized as Christians. For example, if you met two people in real life, me and a "pushy" Christian, you probably would walk away thinking, the only christian of this group is pushy, typical, not even realizing that I was a christian too because I wasn't being pushy. I think that theres this whole group of Christians out there, that is so much more normal than you think, that you're not even recognizing them to be Christian. Out of the several protestant churches I have attended, all have stressed a certain pattern of evangelizing. We can promote the Lord simply by being the people who are nice, who always seem joyful, who are being serving, etc. People around us, fellow students, co-workers, whoever can recognize us as being different, and after getting to know us, might wonder or ask "What fuels you to act how you do?" And through this, you have been given the chance to spread the word. Nothing pushy about that.

I gotta agree with vegita, the protester was plain stupid and trying to cause a problem. Free speech doesn't mean you say whatever you want, it ends when it violates "disturbing the peace" or rules that are instated in private events in which people who enter have given implied consent to abide by the rules.

For heaven's sake how many times can't you guys incorrectly use this as an argument against me and the other's arguing on Christianity's behalf. I believe that everyone arguing for christianity here, maybe except wub, who I don't know, is a protestant. When you talk of all the persecution and the inquisition, and all of that IT WAS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH everyone knows has been corrupt. They even persecuted the Protestants, so stop trying to use this argument. In my experience, very very very few catholics are genuine Christians. Most them havn't read the bible, and jsut think that by mindlessly attending a service once a week and saying a few repe!@#$%^&*ive prayers, they automatically get into heaven. Think again.

Seems like you've totally missed some things I/we have said. You said "There are abotu 5 billion people who are not christians, so they are born with no chance at heaven?" Not at all. You're not born a christian. It's like no the jews who are a race and you're born a jew and guaranteed entrance to heaven (so they believe). I know people who were put away for drugs, only to turn to christ later. I'm not sure what you meant or were thinking there... And "Lord knows how many billions of people who acme before Jesus were not jews." Ok seems like a fair question, since I've already addressed what happened to jews before christ, but never addressed non-jews before Christ. Consider this, in our belief, the first people made by God, became the founders of the jewish race. The jews were the first people, made by God, and hence God's chosen people. Where did the other billions of non-jews come from? Somewhere down the line of their ancestors they had to come from jews, so at some point in their past, their ancestors had the chance to follow God. Was it God's fault that people split away from him? Consider, again, that he then sent the flood (Noah's ark), killing all of earth's inhabitants except for Noah's family. AGAIN starting with ONLY jews. Everyone from that point on had the chance to follow God. Obviously people broke away from this calling, and thus there were non-jews. So maybe non-jewish individuals before Christ didn't have much of a chance, but it's just speculation, no one knows except God himself. I do know tho, that at one point, their ancestors had the chance. Did the ancestor's split ruin their future generations chance at getting into heaven? We simply can not know. (Noticed similarities to the idea of "Original Sin," that adam and eve's sin in the garden was inherited by their children, thus why human's are naturally fallen.)

Thank god geez

Mav did you ever here back from this guy? I used to have the problem a long time ago, don't remember why/how it stopped, but now im curious to know how this was resolved

Uhm, I believe its called.. light from distant stars is "red-shifted." Something to do with how the light bends throught the spectrum or something because of the expansion of the distance it's traveling to earth. Can't exactly remember, look it up. Oh and aren't the you the person there was a big anti-ds thread about... If i didn't think you were dumb after that, I do now.