I've seen Delics map and I like it... it has a few flaws, mainly the large tube through the bases but little flaws can be fixed. I've seen balling on the current map for at over 2 years and everytime I play it seems Teamwork is decreasing. Tonight was proof of that... I have been playing 17th for the past week because of Vile's tournament and it has appalled me to see the complete lack of teamwork. Everyone has their own agenda, their own personal want and thinking they have supposed skills. Its quite sad and even worse to watch. I have just played in a 8 vs 8 of which myself and Don1 who barely did any work scored 6 goals but lost 6-8 - why? Because it always seems one team wants to ball and the other team doesn't. Only 4 people were working on the opposite though and everyone else was fighting. Of course those that DID join in pissed me off because of their lack of thought or action. Attaching to cloakers, staying on people, kaming in pointless situations etc. 'for the team'. -*BAD WORD*-, 17th pub has degraded its self into a huge newb fest that frankly its shameful to be apart of. I can see why alot of people don't enjoy it - its lack of compe!@#$%^&*ion and teamwork is horrible. This new map and pub idea by Delic has potential, it heightens teamwork for terms of flagging and killing, admittedly no ball game although I feel a small ball game might be useful so it doesn't just seem like endless killing but whatever to that comment, but overall Maka has an idea that I think could work. Put it up some friday, think about it and prehaps go back to the roots of 17th a bit.