I don't find much that i can agree on in that post Vile, but ill just post my thoughts about some things that caught my eye. "A zone has 8 ships, all should be designed in one way or another to be useful in events (alternativly, the event should be designed for the 8 ships, either works)." Thats not part of the "the true spirit of 17th Parallel". 17th parallel settings werent made balanced, they werent even meant to be that, and its just pure stupidness if you want to play any leagues with unbalanced settings. 17th parallel pub was made to be lame, "in 17th parallel no1 is truly safe". Jav was the only playable duel/event/league ship and that is what this zone was based on. Jav needed skill to master. "Look beyond the nose of your brown ship for a minute and think a bit. Two examples: DSBL, which has 600+ people in it and features all of their ships, and AML, IML, and Pro, the Premier Leagues, which are SVS (need I say more?)" DSB is the only zone i have played from those, but the difference between 17th parallel and dsb is that the dsb ship settings are balanced. Every dsb ship vs any other dsb ship battle is fair, there are no mentionable advantage in any ship against any other ship. Zones like TW and 17th with unbalanceed pub ship settings are made to have leagues of same ships vs same ships. "(I get at least 2 category wins in pub every soccer match I play in thank you very much, and Veg is the consummate veteran)" 1337 ahihi "but as Joker said, we are all in this together, arguing solves nothing" rofl..joker rly said that? "Sure, taking a newbie's opinion over a vet's is a pretty stupid idea" All this crap of newbies vs vets and pubbers vs league players is stupid. What "vets" are trying is to do is to keep this zone as it was. You have no right to ruin it even if you have superleet imaginary skills in pub. We have to respect the real creators of this zone. "Truth be told, as Maka said earlier, this zone is a very small skillset in the larger realm of Subspace." maybe in the realm of subspace you know. I have won 2 dsbl championchips and so has nycto and arcane i think. Epion and seraphim atleast are full of good dsb'ers and tw'ers. Besides we are not talking about other zones here so this discussion is pointless. "Many of the people that were there when it existed have either left the game or found some other zone. The settings have changed and the next generation has setteled into the zone." Correction. All the loyal 17th players left _after_ the settings were tweaked. And about this new generation: They are just a bunch of skill-less newbies who will not be loyal to this zone. Omg that blabbering about nurples, zeke, you and perni is -*BAD WORD*- and i dont even care to read it with thought. -Hece