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Granted, people do dumb things for dumb reasons all the time in the name of their religion. But would you die for something you know you fabricated? Its like saying the pen is blue when its really red. You know its red, everyone else knows its read, but you say its blue just to mess with them. Someone threatens to kill you for it, would you still say the pen is blue? If someone was willing to whip you then crucify you, would you still say the pen is blue? Other historians from other parts of the world acknowledge the presence of a man named Jesus who performed miricles. Josephus, a jewish scholor (I realize he was not from a different part of the world) acknowledged that Jesus existed. Plato of all people even said there was a man named Jesus who came from Isreal and traveled to India. To say "no one wrote a historical do-*BAD WORD*-ent for him" would be wrong. The gospels have acctually been dated to within 10 years after the death of Jesus, and Matthew was written in hebrew (Jesus was a jew, he lived in isreal, he was surrounded by jews, everyone spoke hebrew, he knew hebrew...) The apostile Paul wrote everything in Greek because everywhere he traveled to they spoke and read greek.

they better have something good if they're bringing up charges against him. In '93 there were no charges filed, it was settled before it got to court, this time its different.

Time to rabbit trail from my own topic empirical? I don't think 20 people consi!@#$%^&*ues as empirical. The whole religion of Christianity started with one man, and has become the most wide spread religion on the planet. Explain to me how 12 people sharing their views and beliefs is empirical. The romans, who at the time knew death very well, pronouncing Jesus dead, stabbing him in the heart, guarding his tomb, still had no explination for his missing body. People can debate that the dicpiles stole the body, but after Jesus was crucified, there were few left. And who would try to steal the body with romans guarding it? Why would these people be stoned, boiled in oil, crucified, be-headed, mocked, beaten, etc for a lie? They had nothing to gain and everything to loose. Would you give your life for something you mocked? I know I wouldn't. Explain to me why within 50 years of the death of Jesus the strongest empire on the planet (romans) fell to christianity. The christians didn't show up with swords and kill everyone and make them believe, so how is that empirical? They showed up, shared what they believed, and people started experencing the same. Now, if you want to use something like the spanish inquision for a reason to call christianity empirical, I can debate that too Christiantiy was already wide spread by the time the spanish inquisition started. Just about every major religion has had their periods like this. Islam was, and still is, being spread "by the sword" so to speak. Either way, the origin of Christiantiy was not started by empirical motives. It was started by a few who shared their story, and had people believe. The apositle Paul didn't go to Corinth with a sword and make people believe like the romans so often did. Now, to get back on the topic, SVS does make a good point about Moore basicly mocking the system by refusing to follow a court order, and I'd have to say I agree with him. The part that ticks me off is that the court order never should have been put in place. And if they want to make a court order to remove a 10 commandments monument, then they should make one to remove all crosses from national cemetaries (sp?), the site of the Oklahoma City bombing and WTC center, as well as court orders to remove crosses from road sides where people died. Its the same basic princible. I don't see a difference between a 10 commandments monument in a court house and a cross on a grave in a national cemetary (sp?) run, operated and owned by the government.

1. "catholic or christian" - Catholisim is Christianity 2. "most people recognize the bible as a bunch of hogwash" - I'll debate the authenticity of the Bible any time with ya if you want (notice I said "debate"). 3. The U.S. was founded on God and Christianity. "In God We Trust" is the motto of this nation, a nation where half the population doesn't care about what is right and wrong, hence forth they have no reason for even concidering the Bible as truth. A nation where its "o.k" to abort a baby before it's born, yet its murder to put it in a bag, sufficate it, and put it under your mattress right after the child is born. 4. "mostly spout intollerance, injustice, ignorance" - Please give examples of where you see "intollerance, injustice and ignorance" in Christianity. I do realize there should be a seperation of church and state in a country where people can freely express their religous beleifs and opinions, but the fact still remains, the laws that this country was built upon, the laws that are still enforced today, were based on Christianity, reguardless of weather you accept it or not. I was watching the news on this subject, and a guy said that the monument should be removed because no one is above the law, referring to God. From my personal standpoint, if anything is "hogwash" it would be that statement.

Bues, a chief justice of the Alabama supreme court was removed from office after he refused to remove a momument of the ten commandments from the enterence of his court building.

Nov. 13: "A special court today ordered the removal of Alabama's suspended chief justice, Roy S. Moore, after unanimously finding that he had committed ethical breaches in a dispute over church, state and the Ten Commandments that gained national attention" * Thoughts, comments? *-Sited from the New York Times

awwww. I was owned...

Not true, Abyss has their own section without any sub forums, granted it's the zone owned by the owner of the forums, but thats becides the point.... ain't it?.... ..... *waits for deletion*

You can pretty much kiss any forum hosting good bye... gg

Surgical already has a forum on OF's forums. Why have one here too?

I don't remember, and it doesn't matter. Its a post count. Post counts hold no meaning to me. Set it to whatever you want, if you want.

Was wondering if you could rename me to Mx Thx.

LOL Not very many "thrid world countries" that have nuclear and biological capabilities. Just because they live in a desert doesn't mean they are third world. The middle east is far from thrid world.

I didn't bother reading everyone's posts, mainly because Im tired. So Im just going to leave my two cents on the subject. P2P is going to be around no matter what these huge companies with unlimited bank accounts do. Shut down kazza, napster, whatever. It doesn't matter. If you think about it, email could be concidered P2P. Does this mean the RIAA is going to shutdown ever email system on the planet? I think the RIAA needs to read my reply on the legalizing pot thread in this forum. The one thing P2P leads to that has the RIAA up in a bind is that it leads to gloified tape dubbing. Most of you probably won't remember this, but back when they found out how to copy tapes, and record music off the radio onto a tape, a bunch of higher up company exec's got all bent out of shape too. Thats exactly what this is. Glorified tape dubbing. These whinning -*BAD WORD*- millionare bands need to stfu. I don't have $20 to spend on your -*BAD WORD*- cd and make you even more rich. Its like; why bother paying $7 for a beer @ a bar, when I can go get 24 of them for $15. It costs what? 15 cents to make a cd. If even that... and they want to mark it up almost 200%. Eat me. I'll buy the cd and make the -*BAD WORD*- thing for 10 times less than that. These uppidy millionares really peeve me. "It vexes me. Im terribly vexed."

The U.S. government could tax the -*BAD WORD*- out of pot and make more than the tobacco companies are lining their pockets with. 1200 ppl wouldn't die every day due to pot, and frankly, if our congress and president were tokin up in the oval office and the house of represen!@#$%^&*ives we wouldn't be having this pissing contest in the middle east which is just causing the death of more lives than it's saving. This whole world needs to lighten up. If the government processed the pot, it would be clean, pure good pot, and more people would be apt to smoke it. Everyone would do it for a while, then it would die down, and be a casual thing like over in Holland. Although, having our government distributing mind altering drugs to the public kinda disturbs me in a way. They could lace that pot with anything, and do whatever they wanted.