MonteZuma

We can use anything we like to help explain our world view. We aren't debating facts, we are debating ethics.

Feel free. I like fluid discussion as much as you do. The topic is abortion, so you haven't gone OT at all.

I agree. An abortion potentially takes away more 'future life' from an embryo than is taken from a murdered adult. But I believe the zygote/embryo has no rights, and nor should it, until it becomes conscious/sentient/whatever.

Which of those definitions do you think applies to abortion? -edit- Ah. I just noticed that you were referring to definition 3. I think you are using this definition out of context. It may be correct, on a hot day for example, to say "I'm so thirsty I could murder a cold beer". But that doesn't mean that it applies to everything that you can 'put an end to'. We wouldn't say that you murdured your dog if you took it to the vet and had it put down. We don't say that a prisoner is 'murdered' when he is sent to the electric chair. This murder debate is a red herring. -/edit- We could all list our academic accomplishments, but I don't think anybody cares? I think that in ethical debates, academic accomplishments don't mean much. I don't have a problem with you choosing to call a zygote 'human'. Sperm is human. But the development of a zygote is definitely a 'dice roll'. A zygote could become a human. Or it could become 2 or more humans. Or more than likely it will become a stain on a sanitary towel. I'm not convinced. Ok, and? Whether or not zygotes, morulas, blasotcysts, embryos or fetuses are 'special' is at the core of this debate. Twins demonstrate that what you have up until the point of the split (and in my opinion for sometime after) is an organised collection of human cells - not a single human being. The argument has not swayed at all. You have stated that "the second the collection of cells thats formed by the combination of a human sperm and a human egg comes into existant, those cells are a human being" and that the "bottom line is its not ok to kill another human being". That must mean that you are opposed to the use of the morning after pill. One thing that the morning after pill does is stop the "collection of cells thats formed by the combination of a human sperm and a human egg" from attaching to the uterus. Therefore in your view the morning after pill is used to kill a human being. Zygotes are as relevant to this debate as morulas, blasotcysts, embryos or fetuses. The start of life (or the start of 'being' or 'individuality' - whatever you want to call it), is one of the issues that is key to the debate about abortion. We are still having fun aren't we? Awwww. Maybe not.

Given that 43% of women in the US will have an abortion in their lifetime, I'd suggest that a large part of America does support abortion - possibly even a majority. Not really. It isn't murder because it isn't unlawful (whether or not it is a verb). I also don't think that it is correct to call an embryo a 'child', but I guess that is open to interpretation. I don't think that it is necessarilly wrong to describe an embryo or a zygote as a 'human'. But the core of this issue is whether or not it is ok to have abortions. Any judgment that is made on that score should be based on moral and ethical considerations that transcend dictionary definitions. They also thought the earth was flat in past times, "past times" isn't a very good reference in any discussion.I believe that it is very useful to look at past times when considering important ethical issues like this. Past times shaped society's moral code. I believe that an embro does not have any rights. I believe that zygotes and embryos (at least in the early stages of development) are not sentient. Yes I think that is possible and can be proven. We could argue whether or not a zygote/embryo has a soul, but that would be a purely religious debate that cannot be proven nor disproven. OK. I think it is time that we all had a discussion about the birds and the bees: When a sperm cell fertilises an ovum it becomes a zygote (by your definition, this is a human being). Well...unfortunately, most zygotes (human beings?), do not succesfully implant themselves in the womb. Most end up embedded in sanitary towels or tampons and end up flushed down the toilet or sent to landfill. Supposing this doesn't happen, it will take up to 14 days for a zygote (now a blastocyst) to attach itself to the uterine wall. Of those that do attach, 25% will eventually be lost through miscarriage (often the women will not even know she was pregnant). Others will be lost through accidental abortions. What this tells us is that, at least as far as mother nature is concerned, fertilised ovum just aren't that special. Most of them do not become people. I could complicate things by alerting you to the fact that it can take up to 14 days for a zygote/blastocyst to split into 2 to form a twin (or even later to form a conjoined twin). Every zygote has the potential to form a twin. So given that you believe that a human being is created at the time of fertilisation, this must mean that twins are one human being with two bodies and conjoined twins are one human being period? I'd argue that it takes a little more than fertilisation to become a 'being'. Did my birds and bees talk help? Is it appalling that a thing that never knew it existed doesn't end up existing? Do you mourn for all of the zygotes that get flushed down the toilet without anybody at all knowing that they existed?

In some cultures it is ok to kill human beings - the death penalty for example. I guess we can also include switching off hospital equipment for people that are brain dead or otherwise beyond help. An extreme example are honour killings. Human life is not always considered sacrosanct. Self-awareness is not the only criterion that I would use to decide whether or not an abortion should be allowed. Aileron claimed that a 5yo was less sentient than his/her aunt. I pointed out that they were equally sentient. A zygote or embryo on the other hand is not sentient. Sentience is a fundamental difference between a zygote/embryo and a child/adult. The relevant part of the definition is the word unlawful. Terminating a pregnancy by having an abortion is not unlawful. Therefore abortion is not murder. It doesn't matter if you consider the embryo to be a human being or not. My foreskin was nothing other than human. My sperm is nothing other than human. These are all debatable philosophical points that will probably never be resolved. In past times, life wasn't considered to begin until the quickening (when the baby kicks). My personal view is that human life becomes sacred with sentience. Justifying abortion because an embryo is not sentient is not a demostration of ignorance. Most people probably would agree that abortion is appalling (most medical procedures are), but so is an unwanted pregnancy. An embryo doesn't realise anything at all. Its is mindless - literally. As much as I like the idea of a father being able to look after the child if the mother doesn't want it, I think this idea raises other moral and ethical issues. Ultimately it is the woman's body and it should be her choice.

A 5yo is no more or less sentient than an adult. Murder is murder. Murder is "unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being". Zygotes and embryos are not sentient and destroying them is not murder.

It is hard to find reliable stats, but it seems that 75% of women who have abortions will only ever have one abortion in their lifetime. Those that have more than one are from disadvantaged backgrounds (example). Behavioural problems (when they exist) need to be recognised and treated. But I believe that most women that have abortions do not have any more behavioural problems than you or I.

We all make mistakes. I agree that abortion is a lousy form of birth control, but I reckon most people will have sex without birth control, and not want to have a child as a result of it, at some time in their lives. We are fallible creatures.

So? I am in favour of any kind of counseling or support service that helps, but pregnancy isn't a disease of the mind or the body. I'm not sure that treatment is the right word. These women aren't ill. You seem to assume that women aren't capable of seeking out the support that they need without some kind of force (legal?). I think that most women are very well informed and make their decision based on good information. I think that all society needs to do is ensure that the community are well-informed about the issues. Maybe. But doctors aren't charity workers. They work so that they make money. If they make money and women get the abortions they want then why intervene?

I think that this boils down to the fact that some people think that zygotes and embryos are sacred, and others do not. There is no scientific solution to resolve this. The only question that remains outstanding in my mind is whether or not people who think that zygotes and embryos are sacred should be able to impose their will on those that don't. Again, this will probably never be resolved. The way I look at it, the embryo does not have an opinion either way. It has no willl to live. It has no plans for the future. It has no awareness of itself or its situation. Why should an embryo have rights that over-rule those of a living, self-sufficient, conscious, informed woman with an ability to make complex decisions based on information, personal experience and personal cir!@#$%^&*stances? To say that women can't sensibly make these choices, or that their will should be ignored in favour of the will of anti-abortionists or the rights given to the embryo by law-makers strikes me as an insult.

Sure. But what is your definition of human life? I think human life begins with consciousness. Until that point, there is no more human life than there is in sperm or ovum. I don't subscribe to the 'potential life' idea. Every sperm and every egg is a potential life. Every Sperm is Sacred There are Jews in the world. There are Buddhists. There are Hindus and Mormons, and then There are those that follow Mohammed, But, I've never been one of them. I'm a Roman Catholic, And have been since before I was born, And the one thing they say about Catholics is They'll take you as soon as you're warm. You don't have to be a six-footer. You don't have to have a great brain. You don't have to have any clothes on. You're a Catholic the moment Dad came, Because... Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. Children: Every sperm is sacred, Every sperm is great, If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate. Little Girl: Let the heathens spill theirs, On the dusty ground. God shall make them pay for Each sperm that can't be found. Children: Every sperm is wanted. Every sperm is good. Every sperm is needed In your neighbourhood. Mother: Hindu, Taoist, Mormon, Spill theirs just anywhere, But God loves those who treat their Semen with more care. Men on toilets: Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. Women: If a sperm is wasted, Children: God gets quite irate. Priest: Every sperm is sacred. Bride and Groom: Every sperm is good. Nannies: Every sperm is needed Babies: In your neighbourhood! Everyone: Every sperm is useful. Every sperm is fine. Undertakers: God needs everybody's. Male mourner: Mine! Female mourner: And mine! Corpse: And mine! Nuns: Let the Pagans spill theirs O'er mountain, hill, and plain. Statues: God shall strike them down for Each sperm that's spilt in vain. Everyone: Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is good. Every sperm is needed In your neighbourhood. Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite iraaaaate!

In that case, I reckon that you will probably have many 'despicable' friends in your lifetime. I think most abortions are a lifestyle choice.

Is he a bum? Some people get dealt a really bad hand and nobody teaches them how to play it. Not always. Sometimes kids are better off without their father in the picture (and/or the mother too!) You think the best thing is for two drugged up delinquents to raise a child? Yeah. But some people don't have the life skills to get or hold down a job. Unfortunately raising kids requires emotional resources, engineering solutions don't work. Actually they probably won't. Children that grow up in troubled families often have trouble becoming successful, contributing members of society. I agree 100% that social issues should be given top priority. I think you've made too many !@#$%^&*umptions about women's views after an abortion or having kids. I think many women question whether their decision to have kids was the right one, and many women whove had abortions also question there decision. But I suspect that most women DO NOT regret having gone through their abortion. I agree, because it isn't a solution at all, but that isn't to say it doesn't have a place in our society. I agree 100% Be careful...you might end up being labelled a bleeding-heart liberal! One thing about this discussion though is that many of the women having abortions are affluent, middle-class white women who have made a lifestyle choice. This isn't just about the poor.

QUOTE(SD>Big @ Oct 24 2005, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>what if a 16 year old girl with let's say everything ahead of her, top of her class, etc etc etc... then she's raped and becomes pregnant, what then?Dunno, but using your clear-cut moral code, she would be a murderer AND a rape victim if she had an abortion. Is the girl in your example in a more tragic situation than a 16yo girl with nothing going for her...dysfunctional family life, victim of abuse, drug addicted, no emotional or financial support or resources, etc, etc... getting drunk or stoned one night and falling pregnant to some equally disadvantaged boy who disappears as soon as the pregnancy test results come through? Fwiw, the 16yo in your example is probably better equipped emotionally and financially to raise a rapist's child than the girl in my example is for raising her own child. Life is complicated. Children make life even more complicated. If the emotional pain of an abortion is less than the pain !@#$%^&*ociated with rearing the child then the woman should have the right to choose. Why should our moral standards be imposed on others? I've known a few women who've had abortions. It wasn't an easy decision and they didn't feel good about it. I don't feel the need to rub salt into their wounds and label them as murderers. I suspect that I've actually known many more women that have had abortions, but are too ashamed to discuss it. Who knows? Maybe your mother had an abortion when she was 16? Maybe your best friends mother? Maybe the girl in Physics class? Maybe the women in the cubicle opposite? You'll never know, but the stats are mind-blowing. 43% of women will have an abortion by age 45. Do you really think it is fair to label over 20% of the population of the US and other countries as murderers and another 20% or more (the fathers and famillies) as accomplices to murder? EDIT...just realised how crappy my math was here....If abortion is murder then 20% of the population are murderers! - not 20% of women.

If you're loaded, you can make a responsible decision to waste money. Anyway. I think we agree it is wasteful.

If it isn't too late H, I'd advise you to make love and not war! If you wanna do something for your country, volunteer for Meals on Wheels or something instead! Other than that, I agree Hacksack. Good luck with your career!

True. I have learned from my statement that analogies can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said causes anybody to misunderstand my true feelings. Vegetables and their families deserve our respect, admiration and total support. Ducky, it is very clear that even though I thought I had said something that clarified the situation, to many people it was still unclear. I'm sorry if anything that I said caused any offense or pain to those who have such fond feelings for Mr Potato head, the greatest potato of our time. Nothing, nothing should ever be said to demean or diminish his great personality. I'm also sorry if anything I said in any way cast a negative light on other fruits and vegetables. I went to market earlier. When you look in the eyes of the potatoes, you see your son and daughter. They are the best. I never, ever intended any disrespect for them. Some may believe that my remarks crossed a line. To them, I extend my heartfelt apologies.

Abortion is ugly, but up until the point where a fetus has consciousness, the mother should be able to choose what happens to her body. If she chooses an abortion then that is her choice and she can live with the consequences. You and I and the president of the united states should mind our own business and concentrate on protecting the rights of living people, rather than parasitic agglomerations of cells that have no more awareness of their own existance than a potato.

Yeah, as Aileron says, cancelling the prom doesn't achieve much. I'm not sure that this is about fiscal responsibility. If the kids or their parents can afford it then it can be fiscally responsible to blow big bucks on a party. The problem is conspicuous consumption. The kids are learning this from their parents (and from television shows like OC and Desperate Housewives, etc, etc). Over consumption and competetive spending became trendy in the 80s and they are habits that haven't disappeared. The school can make their feeble protest, but this won't lead to a social revolution that changes society's distorted value-systems.

Aaaah. I'm not crazy afterall.

Universities are breeding grounds for rent-a-crowd mobs like this one. It is hard to take them seriously.

We don't really have a prom tradition in Australia, so it is hard for me to understand this issue. On a related note, virtually all Australian public schools have a school uniform. One of the biggest arguments for this is that it puts disadvantaged and advantaged kids on a level playing field. Kids can't wear designer brand clothes to impress and poor kids don't need to try to compete. Compe!@#$%^&*ion and peer pressure are big issues for teens. Anything to alleviate that (other than academic compe!@#$%^&*ion) is probably a good thing.

Astro is making a move on Bajan. If that was a pic of Bajan, then I think it would be important for me to stress that Bajan's scores are more like mine than Astro's. I think Bajan and I could be soul mates. Also, I am more sexay than Astro. ;p If that is not a pic of Bajan, then.....Meh.

Heh. Usenet taught me bad habits. Fwiw, btw, afaik and imho for example.