GC6

Ironic given his penchants against speccing and 'false' population. And sad for the inability to allow other players in CZ to have an opinion about the zone settings.. ..even when nothing changed for it... *shakes head*

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j242/sokuraama/MISC/pops.jpg http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j242/sokuraama/MISC/botpop.jpg

Heya Cap! See ya in zone!

I would vote for this too... 15 min and remove the streak expiration timer.

After talking to more flaggers last night, and arguably one of the top, most active flaggers in the zone other than Axe ; I think we can find a clear consensus to remove the prize rewards entirely. It was a simple question I posed actually.. "would you still flag if you got no green reward for it?" The reply : "yes I would definitely flag" followed by : "I dont even like the green reward ~ the green reward was designed to get some non-flaggers started doing it...it hasnt worked that well" I guess I'll make this my 'final position' on this matter... Remove the prize greens entirely, leave the rest of the flag game as it is. Flaggers that enjoy flagging for the sake of flagging, still get flag points, and will still flag by the looks of it. As well, not handing them fully stocked ships for the priviledge might make flag games run a bit longer (making higher jackpots) and require a little more action than the constant cat and mouse game it is now, as there should end up being more parity between the flaggers and everyone else. Flaggers will have to actively green to remain strong, like everyone else in the zone.... And thus really concludes my thoughts on this matter... Thank You everyone for the discussion... I'd like to say we'll see something happen, but thus far, the silence of those that can make changes is deafening... not that I think they aren't listening - just be nice to see some 'official' word on things... anything really... not just this... Anywho..carry on.

I agree, I figured it was right around there some place... So, given my original suggestion, and using the 'bty to reset' as the base : we should lower the initial flag timer to 90 seconds... Frankly I think if we link Bty to reset, flag timer, and team greens to the same number - we'd have a slighly better balance when it comes ot making the flaggers and the 'normal' players more equal in regards to the risk/reward cycle. This is to say I'd go with : 120 second flag timer. 120 bty kill to reset the timer. Team green share stops at 120. Reduce the prize greens for all flag wins. The act of flagging, resetting the timer, and winning the points should be what we're after for flagging... not giving them incentive which allows them to forego the majority of chaos play to be equally as powerful as those that do not. Remember, the second we start going towards "flag to keep up with flagging" that makes us a flag zone, not Chaos. Whether or not you choose to participate in flagging to me is irrelevant - as the rewards for flagging are better than not flagging when it comes to what generally allows advantages to occur in this zone.

Another test today: Entered CZ - 75 start BTY - took a warbird. 3 non bots in spec, and I was the only one flying around. Jackpot was 869 points. Took me roughly 1 minute to gather all the flags and I inadvertantly picked up 2 greens along the way, I got 63 greens for that effort - making my total bounty after the win 140 (starting prizes in brackets) For those 63 green prizes I got : 2 Bursts (0) 3 Reps (2) 2 decoys (0) (no brix) (0) 3 thors (1) 1 rocket (0) 3 ports (3) I then respawed the same ship (Warbird) And greened it to 140. It took me approximately 3 minutes and 4 seconds. I got one multiprize (11 greens) during this time. I ended up with: 0 Bursts (0) 3 reps (1) 1 decoy (0) 3 thors (2) 1 brix (0) 1 rocket (1) 3 ports (3) But, this also puts me squarely in the middle of the map to grab all these greens... where the flags were slightly outside the green radius - as shown, I managed to grab all the flags in a minute, without really greening at all and I was on the outter edges of the green patch, not right in the thick of it where I'd be a much larger target, and I was 'exposed' for a much shorter time while flagging.. It's this metric that makes flaggin appear to 'reward much better for less effort' than playing CZ and avoiding the flags to get to the same place ship strength wize.

We could orate for days on this subject, but it seems we're all just going 'round and round' on theoreticals... Lets see if we can whittle all this down into some easy to read and reflect upon points that have come up thus far. 1: default flag carry time may be too high for the size of the map and the aggregate population of CZ at this time. 2: We don't know what the minimum bty needed via kill to reset the flag timers are - but it seems low whatever it is. 3: Prize rewards for flag games - particularly those with little to no flag points accumulated - or low pop times are too high - this gets exponetially worse as population sees upticks as the more people in the zone, the higher the reward scales. 4: The averge non-flagger is at a effort/reward disadvantage compared to flaggers given equal time in the zone. 5: We give non-flaggers on freqs with flaggers massive green prizes they have not earned at all via participation in flagging, but cap team greening at 100 - because giving away too many free greens to people is "ridiculous". If I were to make any suggestion based on any of the input this far, this is approximately what I'd do. 1: Flag timer set to 120 seconds, or 2 minutes (Down from 3 right now) It's too high right now for the size of the map, and the average zone populations - one can easily win a flag game within the base 180 second timer - the timer should be just enough to get from flag to flag, and or accomodate a fight either with another flagger or qulifying BTY for reset... Yes, you get less time to do it, so, you better be good at finding and engaging your targets and finishing the kill... not just avoiding everyone else till their timers expire. (For what it's worth ; if we're going to say it's 'justified' that flaggers can run to make timers expire to win a flag games via non-engagement, then it's equally as valid for normal players to avoid flaggers so they can't reset their timers. -can't have it both ways, sorry. 2: Whatever the flag timer is set at, set the minimum bty to kill to reset the flag timer to exactly the same number.. 120 second flag timer, have to kill a 120 bty ship to reset it. 100 seconds, 100 bty, 180 seconds, 180bty... This should theoretically do two things ; 1: Level the playing field a bit between flag winners and the average joes they encounter in so far as ship strength. 2: Going after other flag carriers , instead of non-engagement forcing them to drop, becomes necessary, as timer resets with a flag kill regardless of the carriers bounty. Ie, it should turn the flaggers inward on eachother and create more play between active flaggers than there is now, buy making the odds of refresh for a flag kill better than non-engagement strategies or trying to find the needed minimum bty to reset it alone. Coupling these two things together I think forces them to actually participate in the majority of zone play while still maintaining their flag game as close to what it is as possible, and without getting too mad with the Bots and the like... these two things are 'vanilla' settings. Now, while I think the two settings above by themsleves could be changed and acheive the desired effects - I'd also reduce the prize rewards for a flag win, as well as increase the team green share to match whatever the Kill bty to reset the timer is. If you need a 120 bty to reset the flag timer, then team greens should go to 120 too...or what ever that number becomes, provided it doesn't go lower that 100.. consider it likea good faith offering to flaggers... If we say you need 120 bty to rset your timer, we should take care to put that sort of target in their reticals, or making it more common. But again, these are ancillary for me, and more or less 'fine tuning' adjustments we can also look at down the line as or if things progress... At the very very least, I think if we touched nothing else at all, reducing the carry timer to 120 would help, and looking at reducing either prize rewards, or increasing team greens to equalize the rewards would be easy to manage, and not blow everything else up too much. I will add that Axe makes some good points too... it would seem that flagging has a very very slight 'higher regard' for preservation when it comes to CZ right now... It's a touch unbalanced compared to typical CZ zone play - and in some cases, flaggers/flagging seems to get different 'protections' as it were than preserving CZ zone play does.. Ie: are we trying to hard to keep flaggin alive and missing how it's current implementation does not actually forward the goals and ideals of general Chaos play? I get that without flags in CZ, SVS flagging is done, dead as a door nail, stick a fork in it... if we don't use it, it dies - but it can't be parasitic in it's implementation and anything that starts making CZ more "you MUST flag to keep up with flaggers - because they are the most powerful" - makes CZ a Flagging zone, not a 'Chaos' zone. But as I said from the onset, the way we've shoehorned flagging in here - this was bound to happen eventually. ~Edits for spelling and calrification of idears.

All that for : People that are happy don't often complain? I get that.. However, I see even the active flaggers suggesting the game rewards too well for what it is, and allows one to basically avoid the rest of the actual zone play. I think even within the scope of the current game it would be easy to make some changes to bring it more in line with the CZ game play. Some ideas... Lower the drop timer: More like 60 or 80 seconds - it should be low enough that in order to collect ALL the flags, you can't just : 1: get them all within the time limit or 2: just hide around the outside of the map waiting for timers to expire.. ....you're going to need to fight and keep the timer refreshed to hold them all to win the game. 2: Raise the kill bty needed to refresh the timer .. I don't know what it is right now, but with the fact that the flag game craps greens for a win, it should be a lot higher, say, 120 or over - they should have to fight ships roughly on par with their own to keep up the timer. 3: In line with #2, increase bty share on regular teams to match whatever the Kill bty for reset is. If it's 120, team greens to 120 or whatever... Flagging should not supplant greening as a way to get a powerful ship, at the very least, it should be on par. If people that in no way shape or form are flagging, on a freq with a flagger gets ridiculous bonus greens for it, then we need to up the green share for teams that do not flag to keep them competitive with the flag rewards...beside, with all the whining and crying I see about low bounty 'recyclers' rocketing across the zone - it would seem that most people rather get some reward for that risk and have good competitive fights... Maybe if those F3 heros have 120+ bty people will be more likely to engage them instead of run away and waiting for them to green, which they never do. 4: Lower the prize rewards. Pretty much self explainatory.. We could do any one of these, or some combination of all of them.. I just think there is better balance to be had, and based on the current populations, the flag game hasn't really kept up balance wise, IMHO..

I wanted to mostly open a discussion, but truth be told, I'm with you NFS, I'd prefer if they were just turned off entirely in CZ, but didn't figure that would be fair to the process, or those who might enjoy them.. I do think it's worthy of discussing further. To elaborate on one thing... Flags easy to find : I didn't really intend this statement in order to hinge on it as a flaw that needed 'fixing' as it were, just to generally state, in any flag mode type, finding the flags is easy ?flags is a default command.. so finding the flags in this manner is intended. I mostly mentioned it to contrast it against the risk/reward for greening normally with the same results given the size of green rewards for winning a flag game. ...more to come

Specific to this game type : I think the Green rewards for a win are way to high across the board. I think that we've removed a very important balance to this game type - in that ships on the winning team are not reset after a win. This in turn makes the game self sustaining and self perpetuating. And allows active flaggers to basically avoid the rest of the zone for the most part while remaining highly powerful. It's odd that we stop 'green sharing' at 100bty for 'normal CZ game play' but if you're on a freq with a flagger, and never touch a flag, or help kill a flagger, or even see the flagger on your freq while they flag - you get a rediculous reward too. ...meanwhile, everone that doesn't flag is left with the wonky nature of greening and ship cycles on spawn... flags are EASY to find, and what they reward, absolute. No guessing 'will that be the rep I so desparately need' - it'll be a rep, and 2 more reps, and damn near 3 of everything else...even for low flag point wins. And the answer here cannot be "then flag" , because then, we're a "flagging zone" - and that undoes all the work to shoehorn flagging into CZ as a "play style" like it's NOT its 'own game type with its own inherant play styles'. I don't even think we use the right type of flag game in here... we should have a game with periodic rewards, that rewards flag points only based on how long you can hold a flag while getting the needed kill stats to keep your timer refreshed and otherwise being part of the active play in the zone. Right now, our game encourages avoiding 98% of Chaos, and rewards well for doing so.. ...there are a lot of things we can do is basically what I'm saying... I don't think the flag game We currently employ serves the goals of Chaos very well to put it bluntly. I think we can do better. What about You?

I think the view is : It's doesn't hurt the zone. That is the impression I get from this thread, the original poll, and from a few conversations in the zone. I beleive this view is independant of Axe's wants and wishes. What we did identify is - when someone goes AFK on a pub freq - THAT can have a negative effect. But, all we can do is ask, as I did, if you know you're going to be AFK for an extended time, please go to a PRIV freq. Axe has done this so far as I can tell, hell, he's been in axe0chaos arena most this reset so far... so he's obliging with the request. Right now, I think this is over and done...and.. ....it's time to address how the flag game type we use encourages non-participation in the zone...

It was a good reset, Gratz to all!

I sincerely 'Thank You' that you choose to do this with your time, because not everyone can, or would even if they could. I'm also an exception right now... once business picks up, time will be more limited.. ..I also play Minecraft with my Son a lot on a private server. It is what it is.

If you want to be treated well act well Same goes for You.. It's as valid a suggestion for consideration as anything You're asking. Anyway, I've known you in this game since the beginning Axe, I have nothing against you. I don't claim to be better than anyone, I've always played to better myself, not anyone else. I said what I did about our interactions in zone to show everyone else that "It is possible to play this game, and do well without having to always fight you" - Ie: You aren't the ONLY person in the zone or something.. there are plently of targets and no need to always only fight You and You alone. Anyway, see you in zone.

Why do you care who uses what alias Axe? players are players...the game is the game, and aliasing is part of that - take your own advice, care less about who's who, and just play. Besides, I thought you didn't care about names, and only that people play - your constant string of contradictions doesn't do you any favors either. But since you insist : GC6 or B22, Axe... and with either of them, you basically avoid me (Axecept for last nights sordid, sorry rocket/thor fiasco , which you didn't even get me under 1000 NRG with... lol... Why anyone worries about your abilities , I'll never know. Again... 1: have no problem with the safe timer.. and 2: don't really care about your play style. I just think you could (as you have the last few nights) tone down your rhetoric. (Especially if people might consider playing if it were) The fact is, you're an Axeception , not everyone has the luxury of being able to stay logged in 24/7 or play 65hrs a week. You need to be more mindful that some people that would play have limited time, and that your rhetoric and actions do have an affect on people choosing to play here. Lots of us over the years have had to change our play styles, and put up with changes that affected us on more personal levels... EVERYONE - you aren't free from it either. In that regard you aren't an Axeception at all... no matter how much you play.. And that for Me I think is what is worst about this.... so many players watched this zone trade them for changes that today, had ZERO effect on bringing in these "newbs" that don't exist and instead alienated playing players... what’s the saying -Hind sight is always 20/20? Maybe it's time to pick up the red carpet, and realize that no newbs are going to come here - and even if they do, not in sufficient numbers to matter and quit acting like everything we do in here must revolve around players that do not exist. I've axed only for your common sense in this. It takes more than just showing up and "playing" this game to keep it alive Axe, Everyone knows that, I suspect even You do. Is axeing you to axe like it really so far out of the realm of possibility for You? Anyway - to anyone that WON'T play because Axe is here... Grow a pair. It's entirely possible to play an entire reset 1/3 as much as Axe plays, and perform at a top 5 level without ever having to fight Axe... I've proven it's possible - so this is why I don't really care.. ITS NOT HARD GUYS.... and I can't believe that any old vet, or current league player can't 'manage' it... unless they don't want to. I have two people in my squad, and even though I won't qualify for the squad reset winners, I'm still top 5... if you have 3 people that play AT ALL - you can be a top squad or players in this zone... IT IS NOT HARD. There has to be give and take... no one will ever see you as serious about making Chaos a place where we can all play - if we don't actually PLAY - and instead hold it hostage over changes that would make You play - and especially over something as silly as Axe ... someone who's 'persona' has existed in this zone FOREVER... always someone in here acting like him ... before him it was Real Picard... Before Him it was SuG, before Him, it was Corp Canada, and before him it was Ethyl. We all act like "Axe" is a new phenomenon in here.. give it up... Get in there and play - it's the only way anything we suggest would be taken seriously... If you won't, you're just showing that your silence is concent. ~GC

I wouldn't go that far B-Hole... I don't care if he plays, I want him to play... I just want him to knock off his annoying schtic. As the meme goes "You're not helping" Thats all... He was being pretty decent yesterday actually, and everyone was having a good time... Was that so hard?

I agree with Bargled.. these "newbies" are largley fictional and I don't think we need to keep treating every thing like it's going to keep some magical throng of newbs from showing up and ressurecting the zone. I think it's time to recognize the chances of getting a new player to actually stay here and be active is less likely than getting already established players back into the game or back into the zone, even if it's between matches in another arena. Beyond that.... Axe, has it ever occured to You that your hubris and seeming self imporatance outwieghs any good that comes from your having a bazillion bty and sitting in safe for 8+ hours at a time does? Here's a great example : "Over the last few days as a punishment i have played less in response to ban axe demento and don't stay on a public freq. Let me know how the numbers have been. I'll bet they have been less." You punish the zone if you don't get your way?? Who does crap like this? Wait, I know, My son when he was 3 and didn't get his way. Guess what, the zone was just fine over the 24hr period you weren't in it. And so long as we want to trade anecdotal barbs about the worth of such actions, I heard SEVERAL people say the reason they played that day is because you weren't there. But this isn't just to pick on YOU alone Axe.......For the record, I don't really like that Ninespike is basically doing the same thing.. "I'll play and so will my squad if you change X" I think trying to hold the zone hostage over "who do you want in it more, Me or Him" is about a low as it gets, and makes you both look like you don't actually care about the zone, but only yourselves. Makes it hard to beleive any real attempt to help won't be belittled and undermined under a pile of selfimportance and hubris of those holding the zone hostage if they don't like it. And THAT is what is going to be the final nail in this game. So keep hammering away, becuase you're doing a fine job thus far. ~GC6

Safe timer really doesn't affect Me or factor in my choosing to play. Activity does. If I'm going AFK, and for some reason desire to remain in the zone, I try to move to a private freq so I'm not screwing over a pub freq. That is my biggest gripe to be honest, when we have 3 or 4 man freq's and 2 of your team is perma AFK, and there is no where else to go because the other freqs are full AND active. My lesser gripe I struck those comments as they are my feelings on my perception of the situation, and I admit, that peception is not comlete, and thus has no place here, so sorry about that if anyone took offence to any thing insunuated by it.. not what I meant by it after reading it again... Arguing about the merits of which form of inactivity is best for Chaos and enabling it I think is the least of things we can be doing to move forward... as far as I'm concerned, make it 24hrs, and I'll green an alt on my media server and leave it logged in 24/7 if thats really what We're going for.. lol.... it's a little silly to me is all. To add a solution: I guess I'd just ask ; If you're going to actually be Inactive and stay in a safe zone, please change to a private freq. How do we define 'inactivity' - Lets discuss it. What time limit do we place on it? - Discuss it. Do we need to police it? - shouldn't need too.. I think if you claim to actually care about this zone, and keeping it running at all, it's a resonable request, and easily do-able. A lot of people do it now anyway.. I even see Axe do it from time to time. So it seems to be something already in play. I'm just asking you all to consider it, you know when you're not going to be active, don't take up a spot on a pub freq, and we won't need to maybe change the safe timer or get into this type of argument, attacking one another... I think people will be more likely to hop in (especially etsablished players) if they know they won't be on a freq with an inactive player(s). Thanks for the input. ~GC6