Political Bans in Metal Gear

[spin]

http://www.hermes-press.com/big_man.jpg

TestTube & Metal Gear players

 

Hackysack and Bak,

I stand behind my last post ("Can you smell it")

 

Your last posts back me up too, Thank You!

 

I was censored for typing at about a ratio of 1:15 in public chat. (one commet for every 15 comments posted by other players)

 

What I typed was political in nature.

 

I was banned for a year because the talk was political in nature, "As this is known by most by some its not. please keep political discussions out of pub chat in the game thanks" - TestTube

If others talk about politics in Metal Gear they will be under the same restriction. As it has been pointed out to me, owners of the servers hold all the cards, the players are not contributers to the game, but looked on as subjects to the owners whim.

 

Excessive bans for questionable rules makes the whole SSC network look bad. Bush's creep toward fascism makes America look bad. (see source links in my last post)

Spin

[Trained]

Will someone ban this idiot, and his stupid political views.

[Bak]

trained: no

[Aileron]

Trained...political talk is not illegal here. Being an extremist is not illegal either.

 

Bak, professional journalists do apply to almost the same definition of libel. The difference is that they are extremely carefull and can get the same degree of sensationalism without making factually incorrect statements.

 

I'm probably guilty of slight exaggeration but spin himself exaggerates everything. He hasn't really cared yet and this forum's long term members haven't cared either, because face it, at this point I have enough to give spin a formal warning, but I'm not, because he's improving...his first big post contained no logic, and the more recent big post contained bad logic. My hope is that he tones down his rhetoric into stronger, more disciplined thinking, and maybe his next post will contain sound logic. (I know, he moved from 0.0 to 0.1, but I'll give my optimism some time.)

[»SOS]

This is getting inredibly funny

 

I notice spin seems to like taking things out of context/distorting them in most of his paragraphs Bad spin, bad!

 

I mean, like those 14 points. Hah. The sexism one, for example. And all the rest, I think. The first one, of course. Hahah

 

I'm not going to argue here since... well my eyes simply auto-avert themselves from such text :sos:

[spin]

R E S P E C T.. what that means to me.

 

The problem is some of you are having trouble respecting my opinion and respect other peoples opinion much more. This dynamic can lead to someone wanting my opinion banished or otherwise dismissed.

 

Lets consider that I do not respect SOS's opinion in his last post.

SOS- I DON'T RESPECT YOUR OPINION!

 

How do I show my disrespect? What could I do?

What would a fascist do?

 

I could just ignore you!

Example - "I'm not going to argue here since... well my eyes simply auto-avert themselves from such text " - SOS

 

I could make false claims without backing the opinion up!

Example -"I notice spin seems to like taking things out of context/distorting them in most of his paragraphs Bad spin, bad!" - SOS

 

I could belittle your argument, perhaps even pick on the weaker points.

Example - "I mean, like those 14 points. Hah. The sexism one, for example. And all the rest, I think. The first one, of course. Hahah" - SOS

 

Heck, I might even be able to bury the story with a bunch of comments that are not analysis of the original, but designed to re-frame and dismiss the argument.. You know what I mean, I might put up a long post that says nothing of substance, a smear job... using half quotes, making a comment that is designed to tell others what to think, but not a comment designed to give honest objections to the original post.

Example - Review Bak's response to my post "Can you smell it?"

 

I could stop someone I disagreed with by stopping them from posting.

Example - I have been blocked from 2 of the 3 forums I posted my objection to TestTube's political talk ban. One locked forum in TW's general discussions, and one in the SSC rules forum.

 

I could censor someone and use a twisted legal argument.

Example - Aileron, while well intentioned and wanting to not break any laws as he understood them, did just that.

 

 

As I mentioned earlier I believe some of this was done simply because I am the new guy, and TestTube has been around for awhile.. It's simply a matter of respect for some.

 

I respect people for the respect of how they treat others, and the validity of their arguments and actions.

 

I believe that some of you have another reason for your respect of TestTubes argument, for example it could be that you respect TestTube's argument over mine due to knowing TestTube longer. No matter how I may have good arguments, some that respect TestTube based on how long you have known him will be much more likely to back up TestTube and belittle my arguments.

 

I know, I know what your going to say, "Spin, there are all sorts of reasons for respect to develop, your just guessing that I have known TestTube for a long time". To those that make that claim, YOUR RIGHT!. I am simply guessing and there are many reasons for respect to develop.

 

I just know that sometimes a false type of respect can trump my type of respect.

 

Take American politics for example, sometimes people form a respect based on "one hand washing the other".

Believe it or not, it is possible for someone to buy anothers respect-- I see it happen everyday!

For example, that guy who was head of FEMA before he did that poor job and got fired, he got the respect of Bush, he helped election campaigns for GOP figures, Bush respected his fund raising abilitys and made him head of FEMA.

 

http://www.blackcommentator.com/41/41_images/41_cartoon_large.gif

In American politics sometimes respect for big business trumps the respect for the individual.

 

Now back to who I respect - I have a growing respect for Aileron

Aileron, since your definition of liable related to political discussion has evolved over the last day,

I was wondering, would it be ok for me to rebuild what your good intentions tore down?

Aileron, could I place the images that you censored in my post back up?

Seeing the error of your ways is great... admitting that you were mistaken is great --- DON'T GET ME WRONG.

If the original objection is now a mute point, the damage should be repaired --- isn't that something we could all respect?

 

Sorry for this little side track, I will get back to my protest of TestTube giving me that excessive ban in Metal Gear for "talking about politics" in my next post. I just couldn't help but think that some of you are taking TestTubes side because you have known him longer.

Spin

[LearJett+]

I don't know either of you. You seem like a person who ignores factual evidence against your statement and who takes whatever they can get to support theirs (using whatever sources, reliable or not).

 

Your stupid cartoons don't help your argument, they just make me have to scroll down further to read what you wrote.

 

I'm open to your ideas... however you don't present any. You put down Bush, etc, but you don't ever give a reason. You hide behind pictures and biased sources.

 

Give us something to discuss, Spin - at least we'll have that since it doesn't look like you'll be unbanned any time soon.

[Manus Celer Dei]

I have to stop reading this thread, I think spin is trying to make me stupid.

 

[late edit] Godwins law. [/late edit]

[Aileron]

First off I can't...I didn't save the url addresses

 

Secondly I've been generous to you...most mods would have either removed your entire post or given you a formal warning by now. However, it would be insulting to Hackysack and Testtube to put those pictures back up. The desires of two override the desires of one, so I'm afraid I'd be disenclined to do so if I was able. That is after all a democratic principle...power goes to the majority, not the person who is yelling the loudest.

 

 

You also missed the biggest factor about nazism. Without it they are just a political party and with it they are evil. The Nazis committed genocide. Thus it is innaccurate to describe any person not committing genocide as a nazi.

 

 

(Besides...the nazis weren't religious fanatics, they were secular fanatics...they tried to evolve jews out of the human gene pool.)

 

You should also sort your enemies and discipline your thoughts...is your enemy Testtube, Bush, businesses, Hackysack, or SOS? Rage gives you a feeling of power, but it in truth drains your strength by clouding your judgement and messing up your focus.

[Hackysack]

First off I can't...I didn't save the url addresses

 

Secondly I've been generous to you...most mods would have either removed your entire post or given you a formal warning by now.  However, it would be insulting to Hackysack and Testtube to put those pictures back up.  The desires of two override the desires of one, so I'm afraid I'd be disenclined to do so if I was able.  That is after all a democratic principle...power goes to the majority, not the person who is yelling the loudest.

 

 

You also missed the biggest factor about nazism.  Without it they are just a political party and with it they are evil.  The Nazis committed genocide.  Thus it is innaccurate to describe any person not committing genocide as a nazi.

 

 

(Besides...the nazis weren't religious fanatics, they were secular fanatics...they tried to evolve jews out of the human gene pool.)

 

You should also sort your enemies and discipline your thoughts...is your enemy Testtube, Bush, businesses, Hackysack, or SOS?  Rage gives you a feeling of power, but it in truth drains your strength by clouding your judgement and messing up your focus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like you....

Spin so far has done nothing but try to avoid the real reason he was banned. For everyday spin talked politics in pub, he was warned by a mod. Daily warnings lead to his ban, not TT disagreeing with what he had to say. Spin, I warned you this is what would happen to you if you brought your arguements off MGs pub and onto somewhere where people know what they're talking about. I warned you in pub before you were even banned. Its sad that it took you to get banned to finally come on here. -_-

[spin]

Aileron and Hackysack - odds and ends.

Remember you history (or at least learn some!)

 

1. Aileron, I have the links, I could have the censorship of my post repaired in a second, but I see that you have a new reason that I will comment on in a second.

 

2. Germans were secular? WOW, news to the Germans! Now, recall that point about how fascist use religion....

 

>>>8 Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

 

See http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm to see how Hitler capitalized upon the Germans religion, THEN compare to how GW Bush pays special attention to America's religious tradition.

 

3. Bush is moving us toward fascism, and in much the same way as Hitler did. You can keep your opinion that fascism isn't evil unless they comment genocide, but you can not call fascism democratic or American. Take note that the America's grassroots fascist movement- the KKK, for a long time focused mainly as a tool for genocide. I would ask of you to consider that GW Bush's War on Islam is a war of genocide for oil. Yes, I know that GW said that this isn't a war on Islam, but he sure isn't doing anything to stop his propagandist from sayen that it is, or it needs to be. (See links I have all ready posted). Most of the time in Metal Gear I hear a slur toward a Muslim, not a terrorist.

 

4. As far as your new reason to censor my images, the reason you gave is NOT American Democracy, its called "mob rule". The difference is that our Cons!@#$%^&*ution and Bill of Rights can not be over ridden by the mob, but as I have stated before, it sure as !@#$%^&* can be over ridden in sub space! (Mostly done by Americans that SHOULD know better).

 

And for Hackysack's history lesson, learn to read what I have posted. I HAVE mentioned the reason for me being banned in Metal Gear SEVERAL TIMES since I have been posting on the subject, even used you as a source! And will directly address this topic in the next post.

 

Spin

And learjett -- I have posted several links, and I have said something about you shileding your thoughts from things that you do not like. Go back and read my comments directed toward you. Heck, I would like for you to take one of my links you think is bogus and start a new thread about it

 

And I am not angery at anything or anybody, simply calling TestTube's rule that got me banned as being fascist. Was using SOS's comments as a example.

[MonteZuma]

...The desires of two override the desires of one, so I'm afraid I'd be disenclined to do so if I was able.  That is after all a democratic principle...power goes to the majority, not the person who is yelling the loudest.

It is moot, but fwiw, democracy isn't simply a case of 'majority rules'. The desire to protect the rights and respect the opinions of minorities is a tenet of most democracies, even if this sometimes occurs at the expense of the majority of citizens.

 

The Nazis committed genocide.  Thus it is innaccurate to describe any person not committing genocide as a nazi.

That is another example of inductive reasoning gone wrong. Nazis come in different flavours. In any case, it seems to me that the nazi jibe is not intended to be literal. Soup nazis and grammar nazis don't commit genocide. Nazi is basically a metaphor of fascist.

[Bak]

I might put up a long post that says nothing of substance

leooelol

 

ok spin, you've convinced me your ban in MG is unjust and due to facism and the government should interfere in how TestTube runs his server, similar to how the government interfered in private businesses that practiced segragation. After all, free speech is a God given right which nobody has the right to revoke.

[Aileron]

Monte...your point is valid about the sentence I used, though not the situation...in this case the majority have a right to come here without being compaired to murderers.

 

I don't know if the nazi jibe was intended to be literal or not...until I can see otherwise I must assume it was.

 

 

As for nazism...the movement was an unusual one in politics. Most of the time in politics one is dealing with good people...conservatives and liberals have their differences but usually share a common goal and vision of how things should be. The nazis were different in that they were evil people. They had a twisted image of what the world should be like. They valued destruction and unhappiness. They were essentially liberals who turned to evil and twisted every liberal ideal to be the opposite of what it normally means.

 

It textbooks this was falsely labeled conservatism because textbook authors don't have a concept of good and evil...to them the opposite of liberalism is conservativism.

 

I can only offer two proofs of this off of the top of my head.

 

1) Adolf Hitler started his career as an artist...a profession that is almost mutually exclusive from conservatives.

 

2) The term NAZI was an acronym. The "Z" stood for "socialist" (obviously something got lost in the German - English translation)

 

Basically negativeliberals take every liberal ideal and do the opposite...liberals value democracy, so the nazis put all their power into one fuhrer. Liberals value intellectuals, so nazis ignored them. Liberals are tolerant of other races and cultures, so nazis tried to destroy them.

 

Compaire these with conservative ideals and you see slight differences...conservatives value federal systems with checks and balances, thus they wouldn't be comfortable with an all-powerfull fuhrer. Conservatives value professionals, thus they appreciate intellectuals because society needs them to produce professionals. And while some of the radically conservative were racist, they tried to ENSLAVE other races, and wouldn't value the nazi policy of putting human life to waste.

 

That's only my opinion, so there will not be a source that backs me up on this.

 

 

As for Bush's policies...

 

First off, the entire reason liberals hate Bush Jr. any more so than Reagan or Bush Sr. is that Bush launched an offensive on Iraq. Lets start with the stated reasons fo Operation Iraqi Freedom:

 

1) Iraq had remained to be an imminant threat upon her neighbors.

2) The Baathist regime routinely killed innocent civilians for political gain.

3) A true democracy in the middle east would be a boon to the War on Terror.

4) Iraq was believed to have WMDs.

 

Now, as liberals massively point out, it turned out that the fourth justification was wrong - Iraq actually did get rid of their WMDs...to everyone's amazement. However, there are three more points.

 

The second was is the most important...as someone here pointed out that about 50 more people died per month due to the Baathists secret executions than the total death toll (counting everybody...even the idiots who had the explosives strapped to their chests.) in the war. If you lose 99 lives to save 100 lives, the 99 lives were well spent. That means that this justification alone completely justifys the war, albeit barely.

 

The first one is ignored and often forgotten. The Gulf War never ended...there were routine engagements between US air forces and iraqi anti-aircraft installations, as well as engagements between the Kurdish rebels and the Baathist forces. This conflict wasn't given media attention, thus a lot of people tend to think it didn't happen. That is also why Operation Iraqi Freedom was legal in international law, because it was an escalation, a completion of a conflict that was in both legal and actual sense always going on.

 

The third justification is also critical. The muslim world generally lacks a good example of a properly functioning democracy. If Iraq becomes a democracy and then becomes prosperous (thus giving the irony that oil actually is important), then muslims in neighboring countries will stop blaming us for their problems and put proper focus on their own governments. The democracy isn't even in place yet and there are already signs of improvement...Syria pulled forces out of Lebanon, and there is even reason for cautious optimism that the Israli-Palestinian conflict will finally come to an end.

 

 

Now to prove that Bush isn't commiting genocide for oil: The sunni population is alive.

 

 

Another thing the m!@#$%^&* media likes to imply is that there is currently a three way conflict between Iraq's three races. First off, this can't be true because three way conflicts are inherently unstable...the two forces who are the least pig-headed will always form a truce, pounce on the third group...and settle their differences later, with a second conflict if necessary.

 

In this case the Shi'ites and the Kurds are the two. They both have been under Sunni oppression for decades, and they would be perfectly willing to live side by side, perhaps even united, if it means a chance at first-class citizenship.

 

The Sunnis are the bad apples here. They have gotten used to being allowed to rob (not literally) the other two groups, and to them any deal that doesn't allow them to do so is unreasonable. They are used to having somebody lift them up on their shoulders, and now that they are set on their own feet they feel short. The Sunnis are the only domestic population producing terrorists, and the Sunnis are the only ones who have major problems with the new cons!@#$%^&*ution.

 

If Bush had any genocidal tendencies, the Sunnis would be the race to go. But as I said, they are alive and unharmed.

 

 

Bush cannot be censoring the media, because if he was censoring the media the messages would be twisted to favor his agenda...when in fact they are twisted to meet his enemies' agenda. The Japanese media for example is completely unbiased (they have no stake in this situation at all), but they make no secret that they believe the coalition forces to be the good guys here.

 

The media has MADE THINGS UP about Bush. Last election CBS (I'm not quite sure I'm right here, but is was a major network, not biasedidiots.com) claimed that Bush deserted out of national guard service, and admitted that they made up the whole thing the following december. Another network made the false claim that a guard in Guantanimo Bay flushed a Quran down a toilet. The defense department admitted some details were true, but the story was mostly overexaggerated. This greatly damaged American prestige and indirectly Bush's prestige...it is especially sick that they would take the prestige of an entire country down a notch in their grudge against one man.

 

If Bush was censoring the media, the true stories about him wouldn't make it to publishing. We are seeing false negative stories about him. That makes it all the more impossible for Bush to be overseeing censorship here.

 

Sorry for the incredibly long post, but that sums up every arguement I have made on the subject during the past 3 years.

[Hackysack]

Aileron and Hackysack - odds and ends.

Remember you history (or at least learn some!)

 

1. Aileron, I have the links, I could have the censorship of my post repaired in a second, but I see that you have a new reason that I will comment on in a second.

 

2.  Germans were secular? WOW, news to the Germans!  Now, recall that point about how fascist use religion....

 

>>>8 Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

 

See http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm to see how Hitler capitalized upon the Germans religion, THEN compare to how GW Bush pays special attention to America's religious tradition.

 

3.  Bush is moving us toward fascism, and in much the same way as Hitler did.  You can keep your opinion that fascism isn't evil unless they comment genocide, but you can not call fascism democratic or American.  Take note that the America's grassroots fascist movement- the KKK, for a long time focused mainly as a tool for genocide.  I would ask of you to consider that GW Bush's War on Islam is a war of genocide for oil.  Yes, I know that GW said that this isn't a war on Islam, but he sure isn't doing anything to stop his propagandist from sayen that it is, or it needs to be.  (See links I have all ready posted).  Most of the time in Metal Gear I hear a slur toward a Muslim, not a terrorist.

 

4.  As far as your new reason to censor my images, the reason you gave is NOT American Democracy, its called "mob rule".  The difference is that our Cons!@#$%^&*ution and Bill of Rights can not be over ridden by the mob, but as I have stated before, it sure as !@#$%^&* can be over ridden in sub space! (Mostly done by Americans that SHOULD know better).

 

And for Hackysack's history lesson, learn to read what I have posted.  I HAVE mentioned the reason for me being banned in Metal Gear SEVERAL TIMES since I have been posting on the subject, even used you as a source!  And will directly address this topic in the next post.

 

Spin

And learjett -- I have posted several links, and I have said something about you shileding your thoughts from things that you do not like.  Go back and read my comments directed toward you.  Heck, I would like for you to take one of my links you think is bogus and start a new thread about it

 

And I am not angery at anything or anybody, simply calling TestTube's rule that got me banned as being fascist.  Was using SOS's comments as a example.

 

As far as your ban goes, I know how MG works. Ive played MG since its top population was around 15 people at any given hour. Im pretty sure I know how it works. Not to mention the fact that from my stay in MG Ive grown to know and talk with all the mods. Also not to mention the fact that Ive talked to mods about banning you. So this is no big surprise that you were banned. Now quit being a crybaby and get over it. Instead of believing everyone to be facist, why dont you first understand what your talking about. I dont need to mention anything about the "history" part, because as of the looks of things, Aileron owned you yet again. Maybe you should try to argue something eles besides politics. Maybe... Weater Mcdonalds is better then Wendys. Maybe then you could win an arguement. That is until you bring up that they're facists too.

 

 

 

 

 

ok spin, you've convinced me your ban in MG is unjust and due to facism and the government should interfere in how TestTube runs his server, similar to how the government interfered in private businesses that practiced segragation. After all, free speech is a God given right

 

I dont know if that was sarcasim or not, so im going to go with it not being sarcastic.

#1- TT has OWNERSHIP of his OWN server. He can do whatever he wants with it. He's the one who invests HIS money into it. This is a free internet game we're talking about here. Where players don’t have to pay 1 cent if they don’t want to. Yet you're trying to tell him how to run it. HAH! That’s like telling an owner of a sports team he cant fire one of his players. He can do whatever he wants!

#2- As far of freedom of speech goes, people try to use that stretch that term into justifying what they did. Can you walk up to a police officer and call him a pig to his face and not expect anything to happen? Nope, didn’t think so. Did you know that you can be arrested for threatening to kill the president? Its true. Look at our school systems. What happens if you use vulgar language? You're disciplined. The fact is there are rules that limit your freedom of speech in certain places and times. MG had made the rule that political talk in MG pub wasnt allowed. This was before spins ban. If spin never read the rules thats his fault. Thats like getting those free PS2s and Ipods. If you dont read the fine print, you pay for it in the long run. Spin had been warned in the past for his political talk in pub. Its his fault he continued to do so every chance he got. -_-

[spin]

MORE ODDS AND ENDS! Hackysack and Aileron are back.

 

 

Hi everyone! Spin here,

I am still not in Metal Gear thanks to TestTube's oppression of the First Amendment of the country that TestTube calls home.

http://www.skywriting.com/misc/pics/free-speech-pen/land-of-the-free.jpg

But I am here in the free speech zone!

 

Alleron, WOW- well lets correct some of your facts you got wrong as it relates to this thread. Perhaps if someone challanged your views in a area outside Rush Limbaugh's control you would of corrected yourself by now, like say Metal Gear... oh wait, nevermind.

 

Aileron you said "I don't know if the nazi jibe was intended to be literal or not...until I can see otherwise I must assume it was."

Well here is what I have said so far on this subject in this forum.

From my post "The following 14 points of Fascism is derived from comparisons of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet.. The original link sites GW Bush's actions, policys, wars, and new laws to indicate just how far we are sliding off the right side of the scale and into Fascism. So Bak and Aileron, to answer your angry little rants-- Yes, you can link Bush to the above leaders, not just Hitler" - Spin from the post #20 "Can you smell it?" Alleron, please go back and review the links I provided, I encourage you to start a new thread if you find that the links I provided are in error.

 

As for your views on what a Nazi is/was.. WOW you are VERY VERY VERY off base. You said it best "That's only my opinion, so there will not be a source that backs me up on this." - Aileron. However you are correct that Nazi does imply socialism in that name. Hitler implied socialism but it was not socialism. This helped in 2 ways, it was a way to get the German people on his side ("compassionate conservatism" is a new slicker version of this tactic) and to get German capitalist more profit (private companys carried out the "social" programs.)

 

As for you view on Bush's Iraq war, your equally confused or flat out wrong on many topics that is worthy of a new thread.

 

Aileron, the vast majority of what you discussed (90% or more) is flat out wrong, a lie, not correct, misleading and is EASILY verifiable that you are wrong. Ask yourself, how did you get to be so wrong on so many important issues? That is worthy of Astros thread "what burns me". But it also relates to how fascist back up their policys- propaganda, it has been done before, and it is happening now in America. TestTube's censorship of such subjects is only a cog in the machine of Bush's propaganda, same mechanism worked in Germany and other countrys where fascism and totalitarianism was the norm, Central America's "Banana Republics" is another example of this. (goggle "Banana Republic" to research how this phrase was developed)

 

Now, Hackysack

I have never made a threat on anyone just in case you are saying that I have, nor have I ever gone outside the bounds of America's first amendment., nor have I ever said anything not true (well, I try to be 100% accurate, I suspect that I am only 95% when I post my comments in Sub Space.)

You said "TT has OWNERSHIP of his OWN server. He can do whatever he wants with it. He's the one who invests HIS money into it."

 

Well, that is what this protest is all about. TestTubes control of the server that he owns stops where OUR First Amendment rights begin. After all doesn't Bush and his propagandast tell you that we are exporting America's Democracy to Iraq? Or will both America and Iraq get stuck with a Corporate-Religious Dictatorship making propaganda points about "Democracy" when it suits their needs?

 

Spin

[Hackysack]

Now, Hackysack

I have never made a threat on anyone just in case you are saying that I have, nor have I ever gone outside the bounds of America's first amendment., nor have I ever said anything not true (well, I try to be 100% accurate, I suspect that I am only 95% when I post my comments in Sub Space.)

You said "TT has OWNERSHIP of his OWN server. He can do whatever he wants with it. He's the one who invests HIS money into it."

 

Well, that is what this protest is all about.  TestTubes control of the server that he owns stops where OUR First Amendment rights begin.  After all doesn't Bush and his propagandast tell you that we are exporting America's Democracy to Iraq?  Or will both America and Iraq get stuck with a Corporate-Religious Dictatorship making propaganda points about "Democracy" when it suits their needs?

 

Spin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didnt say you threatened anyone. As far as free speech, if its in the rules that certain things aren't allowed, those are the rules. Obey them or be punished, which you were.

[LearJett+]

People also have the right to control their own property, Spin. TestTube is doing what he wants with it. You have the right to free speach all you want in your own zone, but when you're in someone else's you obey their rules.

 

 

 

 

PS. It wouldn't kill you to visit a non-SSC zone, would it?

[Kolar]

#1 Disliking Bush and conservativism is not undemocratic, neither is liking it.

 

 

#2 The American Constution or any country law do not extend to the administration of server property. More specificly freedom speach (with you I like to call that "the right to be an annoying !@#$%^&*er") is not protected, it's a free service.

 

 

#3 TestTube and SSC can do anything they want with you Spin.

 

 

#4 Drowning people out with text and stupid pictures of Bush in a clown suit, in a political forum is NOT a political discussion.

 

 

#5 Nor is posting Macros on a free online game to insight anger.

 

 

Umm.. Forum Admin, just be done with him.

 

Spin, There's a difference between being a facist or having a different political ideology AND just not caring to hear Propaganda 24/7 from you.. If removing all political discussion was needed to get you out then TT put too much work into this, i'm almost certain that's not the case. TT said you were spamming political Macros over months of being told to stop, that's why you were banning. Not for having an opposing polital view.

[MonteZuma]

I don't know if the nazi jibe was intended to be literal or not...until I can see otherwise I must assume it was.

It is fair to object to being given a label of nazi (or fascist), whether the label is intended to be interpreted literally or not. But the satire in spin's posts is obvious.

 

The nazis were different in that they were evil people.

Not all nazis were evil, but I agree that most, if not all, "had a twisted image of what the world should be like". Some were evil.

 

They valued destruction and unhappiness

Not true. Their propoganda films show that they valued order, beauty and perfection.

 

They were essentially liberals who turned to evil and twisted every liberal ideal to be the opposite of what it normally means.

The nazis were liberals? By definition, liberals value protection of civil liberties. Nazis did not. The nazis were fascists.

 

It textbooks this was falsely labeled conservatism because textbook authors don't have a concept of good and evil...to them the opposite of liberalism is conservativism.

I doubt that any text book would declare a nazi to be a conservative. By definition, conservatives oppose radical changes or reform.

 

Nazis were neither conservatives or liberals.

 

1)  Adolf Hitler started his career as an artist...a profession that is almost mutually exclusive from conservatives.

You think that this is 'evidence' that he was a liberal??? I think you need to do better than that.

 

2)  The term NAZI was an acronym.  The "Z" stood for "socialist" (obviously something got lost in the German - English translation)

Despite the name, Hitler hated socialism. Hitler saw socialism as part of a Jewish conspiracy.

 

Basically negativeliberals take every liberal ideal and do the opposite...liberals value democracy, so the nazis put all their power into one fuhrer.  Liberals value intellectuals, so nazis ignored them.  Liberals are tolerant of other races and cultures, so nazis tried to destroy them.

That seems like proof enough that Hitler was not a liberal. Doesn't it?

 

First off, the entire reason liberals hate Bush Jr. any more so than Reagan or Bush Sr. is that Bush launched an offensive on Iraq.

I think there are other reasons why liberals (and others) hate Bush.

 

The muslim world generally lacks a good example of a properly functioning democracy.  If Iraq becomes a democracy and then becomes prosperous

What if it doesn't? I don't think you can force a country to be democratic.

 

Now to prove that Bush isn't commiting genocide for oil:  The sunni population is alive.

Onbviously Bush isn't committing genocide, but that is not to say that oil is not a big part of his decision-making process.

 

The Sunnis are the only domestic population producing terrorists, and the Sunnis are the only ones who have major problems with the new cons!@#$%^&*ution.

Strangely enough, the majority of Kurds are Sunnis, and these were the biggest supporters of the US. It just isn't that simple.

 

Bush cannot be censoring the media, because if he was censoring the media the messages would be twisted to favor his agenda

He isn't censoring the media. He is using and manipulating the media.

 

I could comment on the rest, but I think you know my views well enough. In short, I disagree.

[LearJett+]

To Ail:

 

Hitler hated Stalin and Communism/Socialism. I would go find quotes but I'm too tired.

 

 

 

To Monte:

 

Of course oil was part of the decision. It's politics and Bush is a politician. The question is: How much of a role did it play in his decision?

 

 

It seems to me that most liberals hear "facts" on CNN newsand in Forwarded emails about how X number of people are dying in Iraq and Bush knew about 9/11, etc and believe what they hear. Then they think they're so smart and try to actually do something about it or complain about it.

^I know that I'm probably wrong, I just can't help thinking so.

[Aileron]

I didn't say Hitler was a liberal...I said he was a negativeliberal...a completely different group that is extinct in any normal time. The point is that he took every liberal ideal and does the opposite, and that doing the opposite of every liberal ideal doesn't equal conservativism.

 

(Its wierd, I'm making up my own weird political doctrine, so...)

 

As for Iraq, I don't have the time right now, so I'll argue about that later. It is afterall irrelevant to this particular topic...I just wanted to force Monte to post.

 

 

 

Spin, welcome to the politics forum. The two big fish here are Montezuma of the left wing side and myself of the right wing side. Neither of us is to be beleived when we post, our words are carefully sculpted to push our respective agendas.

 

Debating a lot of times is like a game of chess. You could if you wish just use sensasionalism and images to try to muscle your point accrossed, but this will never work because you are trying to outmuscle the wills of multiple people, and you would soon find yourself at odds with your environment, and they would dispose of you.

 

However, the smart way to do it involves knowing when to attack, when to retreat, when to make a mad rush at your defensless opponant, and when to stick your head in the sand and hope that he shuts up before he completely destroys your point. It takes practice and discipline to learn these things.

 

It harder, but when you do it the smart way people actually respect you and listen.

 

 

For now, you should watch what Monte does. When it was just you posting, he stayed out of it so that he could distance himself from you. He only posted when I used the opportunity to attack the left, in an effort to remind me that he is still here.

 

Basically, if you back Monte up, attack when and where he attacks and don't defend issues he is unwilling to, you would soon get a knack for this sort of thing.

[spin]

SPINSANITY IS TALKING POLITICS-- SO SHOOT ME!!!

 

It's funny, everywhere outside of Sub Space and the Fascist first instinct is to shoot a dissident--- BUT not in Metal Gear. In Metal Gear they just ban you, give you warnings, or censor you ability to send messages and other commands.

 

What I do does not interfere with game play, when it does I move it to private chat.

 

 

Strikezone> i don't know y ppl say laggot and !@#$%^&* i mean wats the point the ppl are still gonna play even if they do lag. and i think they no that they lag

Aileron> They were essentially liberals who turned to evil and twisted every liberal ideal to be the opposite of what it normally means

devilsbloo> lol

Ciraxis> hehe

Strikezone> i lernt my lesson lol

MonteZuma> The nazis were liberals? By definition, liberals value protection of civil liberties. Nazis did not. The nazis were fascists.

Moderator Warning-- Political Talk Not Permitted ***

 

Remember, This will get you punished in Metal Gear, Because TestTube owns the server has decided that OUR First Amendment rights have no place in his zone. Not because it interferer's with game play. If TestTube was interested in game play he would be banning the people that set in spec for hours and banning players that leave the keyboard for minutes at a time.

 

Short post

Spin.

 

Side notes

1. MonteZuma - your comment about Nazi's not being conservative, while true technically is a bit misleading, about as much as me saying that Nazis were conservative. This technicality it important, BOTH are Right wing, Conservatives that move to Fascism is the base of the Fascist, with the "New Deal" type of liberals joining them. But like you said, Conservatives are not Fascist, on the other hand Neo Conservatives (the group controlling bush and a good deal of the Republican party and propaganda machine (any idiot on right wing radio) are in that group that are moving toward fascism very quickly... MANY Conservatives have complained rightly so that the stuff LearJett and Aileron are hearing on Limbaugh is not conservative.

 

2. LearJett - There are many cases where our laws limit what people can do with their property (can't do a denial of service attack with a server, can't keep Mormons off your bus), at the same time there are limits on free speech. The question is... can TestTube launch a denial of free speech attack on YOU or Kolar or hackysack?

 

Rather than TestTube banning me, he should be shooting me!

[Aileron]

Wow, I can't believe I'm writing this, but spin is actually calming down a bit...he went through an entire post and only called TT a fascist once. He also actually made a logical arguement.

 

 

The problem is though spin that most of us hate talking politics in the game. I for one would rather not have such distractions as I play, and know that good political discussions take time that the real time chat doesn't give you. We don't care that we are not allowed to talk politics for months on end in Metal Gear's pub chat. There are plenty of alternative venues.

 

What if a sports commentator was talking politics in the middle of the Steelers/Patriots game? NFL fans wouldn't want to hear it, they want to hear discussions on the football game. If a sports commentator talked politics during every NFL game he announced for a month, he would be fired and replaced, and this isn't a violation of free speech. This isn't to say that a commentator can't make an occ!@#$%^&*ional light side comment...its just that if he wanted to talk politics he should have applied to C-Span.

 

Metal Gear isn't a government. It has no cons!@#$%^&*ution. This is offset by the fact that its not real life. Its no big deal if you can't speak your mind there. Metal Gear has no society that will collapse without free speech. If somebody gets banned, its no big deal...they just find another zone to go to.

 

You obviously have never been to SWR or met ShadowRipper.

[MonteZuma]

It seems to me that most liberals hear "facts" on CNN newsand in Forwarded emails about how X number of people are dying in Iraq and Bush knew about 9/11, etc and believe what they hear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think liberals and conservatives can both be gullible.