SeVeR Posted January 25, 2006 Author Report Posted January 25, 2006 Its impossible to say how many guns reach the black-market from the legal process but the number is significant. 1. Stolen Guns.2. Straw-purchases.3. Gun-Shops selling illegally. Are three common ways of guns getting into the hands of criminals that wouldn't exist if guns were illegal. I do think guns are useful in the hands of ordinary citizens but its not much use if the criminal uses his gun to threaten you because you can hardly pull yours out. A gun is useful against a criminal with a knife or bat but that would only encourage the criminal to get hold of a gun after. The question is whether the sacrifice is worth making. Criminals will always get guns through imports but this will force the price right up and will likely take guns out of the hands of the thugs you're likely to meet on the street. The professional criminals with the money and connections to import a gun will not be mugging you on the street with it. As for taser guns, well you have to consider the weather, multiple targets and range. In the home they would be useful because there will likely be one attacker within range in good conditions but outside is a different kettle of fish.
LearJett+ Posted January 25, 2006 Report Posted January 25, 2006 The question is whether the sacrifice is worth making. Criminals will always get guns through imports but this will force the price right up and will likely take guns out of the hands of the thugs you're likely to meet on the street. The professional criminals with the money and connections to import a gun will not be mugging you on the street with it. Yea, they'll just sell the guns to thugs and make millions. They would just become the bootleggers of gun prohibition.
SeVeR Posted January 25, 2006 Author Report Posted January 25, 2006 The point is that the price of guns will go up cutting out most of the thugs on the street. Unless someone is going to buy a gun and then sell it at a massive loss then i don't know what you're getting at.
quickspy Posted January 26, 2006 Report Posted January 26, 2006 If you live in dangerous cities that require yourself to defend yourself you probably wont be able to afford a Taser(~$400). Also many times attackers are quite big and under the influence of drugs. Many times a taser attack may just piss them off which would make the criminal even more dangerous. Cities try every day to enact new laws/regulations to prosecute criminals and prevent crime. But in reality there always will be murderers, rapists and criminals and I believe that we can all agree that there will never be a time where our world will be clean of all criminals. There will always be situations where a victim will be face to face with another person that wants to inflict harm. In these situations the police may not be able to respond fast enough and many people in the city cannot afford expensive alarm systems. During these times it would be crucial to have a firearm to protect yourself or your family until law enforcement arrives.
MonteZuma Posted January 26, 2006 Report Posted January 26, 2006 There will always be situations where a victim will be face to face with another person that wants to inflict harm. In these situations the police may not be able to respond fast enough and many people in the city cannot afford expensive alarm systems. During these times it would be crucial to have a firearm to protect yourself or your family until law enforcement arrives.Around the world, many countries with strict gun laws have lower rates of crime, especially violent crime, than do countries that have much fewer gun control laws. Clearly it is not crucial that individuals have guns to protect themselves. There are better ways.
LearJett+ Posted January 27, 2006 Report Posted January 27, 2006 The point is that the price of guns will go up cutting out most of the thugs on the street. Unless someone is going to buy a gun and then sell it at a massive loss then i don't know what you're getting at. Just because America outlaws guns doesn't mean the international price of guns would go up. People would buy them from other countries...
MonteZuma Posted January 27, 2006 Report Posted January 27, 2006 Just because America outlaws guns doesn't mean the international price of guns would go up. People would buy them from other countries...In post 9/11 USA, how do you propose that Mr and Mrs Joe Average will illegally import firearms?
quickspy Posted January 27, 2006 Report Posted January 27, 2006 Most of the countries which have stricter gun control laws are in a different type of situation. The amount of firearms in civilian/criminal hands is much higher in the US and there is no effective solution to remove those firearms that may endanger households. Again I agree that if our civilian population was relatively gun free strict gun-control laws probably would work. But stricter gun control laws in America would just take firearms from responsible owners and leave them in the hands on irresponsible owners. Monte you probably know borders around the Southern border are still weak. If you can sneak carloads of illegal immigrants in the country i'm sure you can sneak a truck load of glocks and ak-47s.
MonteZuma Posted January 27, 2006 Report Posted January 27, 2006 Most of the countries which have stricter gun control laws are in a different type of situation. The amount of firearms in civilian/criminal hands is much higher in the US and there is no effective solution to remove those firearms that may endanger households. Again I agree that if our civilian population was relatively gun free strict gun-control laws probably would work. But stricter gun control laws in America would just take firearms from responsible owners and leave them in the hands on irresponsible owners.I disagree. If you reduce the number of legal guns in circulation, you will also reduce the number of guns available to criminals. Monte you probably know borders around the Southern border are still weak. If you can sneak carloads of illegal immigrants in the country i'm sure you can sneak a truck load of glocks and ak-47s.You can say the same thing about the borders around Europe/Eastern Europe, and yet gun ownership and gun crime are much lower in Europe. The US isn't a 'special' case. In any case, most weapons that cross the USA/Mexico border are moving south. 95% of weapons confiscated from suspected criminals in Mexico were first sold legally in the United States. It is much harder to obtain a firearm in Mexico than it is in the US. Therefore reducing the availabiliy of guns in the US will have the secondary effect of lowering gun crime in Mexico. Your argument seems to be that gun control won't work because it is too hard to keep ALL guns out of the hands of criminals. The aim of stricter gun control laws is not to achieve 100% success, but to reduce crime and death. I'm yet to hear a logical argument that can be supported by evidence suggesting that less legal guns means more crime victims. It just doesn't make sense when you know that most illegal weapons started life as legal weapons.
SeVeR Posted January 27, 2006 Author Report Posted January 27, 2006 Monte's on the ball again with this one. It's a common opinion that overall crime is an indication of how civilised a society is. It may be of interest that the overall crime rates (independent of population) for the USA and UK are almost identical. Yet when one looks at the murder rates the USA is three times higher. Bear in mind that this is overall murder rate, the firearm homicide rate in the USA is 27 times higher. For me this proves one simple theory: Guns elevate crimes that would have been mere !@#$%^&*aults to the status of murders. With identical crime rates you're three times more likely to be murdered in the USA and about 67% of these murders are with a firearm. The following graph indicates this to be a high percentage with the USA being far to the right of the trendline: http://www.nationmaster.com/plot/cri_mur_w...ir/cri_mur/flag All stats are from: www.nationmaster.com
Aileron Posted January 27, 2006 Report Posted January 27, 2006 While firearm related crime is down in Europe, violent crime rates are going up. It is true that less criminals are using guns, but there are more criminals who just use a weaker weapon. Instead of having one gun-brandishing rapist, they have two knife-brandishing rapists. (Not to imply the rate is 200%)
MonteZuma Posted January 27, 2006 Report Posted January 27, 2006 While firearm related crime is down in Europe, violent crime rates are going up. It is true that less criminals are using guns, but there are more criminals who just use a weaker weapon. Instead of having one gun-brandishing rapist, they have two knife-brandishing rapists. (Not to imply the rate is 200%)What are your sources? I would be surprised if violent crime rates in western Europe are higher than in the US. I also doubt that many rapists brandish a gun (even in the US) - maybe not even a knife. When it comes to gun crime, I think rape is irrelevant.
quickspy Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 Aileron's statement is correct. I believe reading about a specific situation in England where they adopted stricter gun-control laws and violent crimes went up. (John Lott- More Guns, Less Crime) It is a biased book but presents statistics that do!@#$%^&*ented by non-biased organizations.
MonteZuma Posted January 28, 2006 Report Posted January 28, 2006 Aileron's statement is correct. I believe reading about a specific situation in England where they adopted stricter gun-control laws and violent crimes went up. (John Lott- More Guns, Less Crime) It is a biased book but presents statistics that do!@#$%^&*ented by non-biased organizations.Got links? I've got no time to read books How did he confirm the cause-effect link? Maybe the crime rate went up because of other reasons? For example, in 1998 and 2002 the method for recording crime in England and Wales were changed. Both changes resulted in an increase in the number of crimes recorded. Certain offences, such as minor violent crime, were more affected by these changes than others. Present some links or quotes and I'll have fun shooting them down in flames - pardon the pun.
Aileron Posted January 29, 2006 Report Posted January 29, 2006 Alright, I'll give you a link, but I'm too lazy to search the web for a good one. Some Blog I got this by putting "Crime Rates Europe" in google...this was the second link on the list. This isn't a good link, it is definitely a right-winged site, but some of the links this guy used as his citation are good. Maybe this one is even better than the first: Another Blog I'm not law-enforcement, so I can't cite Interpol's crime statistics directly. So, I am stuck with secondary sources and all secondary sources have an agenda...so I only have a choice between right-winged and left winged cites. But, as the first guy pointed out (though he went off the deep end a little), this may not be just firearms, and probably isn't. It probably has more to do with the entire culture of our countries than any one aspect. Still, the entire point of all topics is to prove that too-much leftwingedness is dangerous and unstable.
MonteZuma Posted January 29, 2006 Report Posted January 29, 2006 You need to do better than that. I could post some links to left-wing blogs that say the opposite. Fwiw, I clicked the first link in the second blog (ie Interpol) and this pops up: "The International Crime Statistics are only available to authorised police users". I clicked the second link, and learned this: "However, robberies, house burglaries and thefts of and from vehicles (in the UK) showed falls - of seven, four and six per cent respectively. Overall crime rates remained "unchanged". There were 1,526,000 crimes recorded in the second quarter of this year, compared with 1,463,000 in the previous three months." and "Hazel Blears, the Home Office minister, said: "The risk of a fatal shooting in England is still one of the lowest in the world but every crime involving a firearm is a serious concern."" and "Experts agree that few high-quality, military guns and ammunition are being used. More than 70 per cent of weapons seized by Operation Trident, run by the Met squad tackling gun crime in the black community, have been modified from air guns, blank firers or previously de-activated weapons." and "The figures show that since November last year there have been year-on-year reductions in the number of firearms incidents." Heh. And that was the type of information this guy used to prove his point that the UK is much more dangerous than the US. The fact that you can only come up with a couple of biased blogs to support your argument says something.
SeVeR Posted January 30, 2006 Author Report Posted January 30, 2006 Overall crime rates are almost the same. So the only reason the UK has more !@#$%^&*aults and muggings is because the USA has a murder rate three times higher. I'd rather be punched in the face a hundred times in the next ten years as opposed to being shot dead at the end of it. Instead of having one gun-brandishing rapist, they have two knife-brandishing rapists. Instead of one gun-brandishing thug you have two unarmed thugs. Instead of a murder you have two !@#$%^&*aults. I can live with that although its certainly not 200% (like you said). As for rape it has gone down by about 10% in the last year (BBC) which is a massive decrease when you think about it for a country of 60 million. So i sincerely doubt you get more rapists in an anti-gun society.
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