Good Nuremberg Quote

[Aileron]

Monte, I'm holding the people who actually did the bombings responsable...not the people who occupy a similar seat 70 years later. If you quoted the people from Japan who were actually participated in the massacre, I wouldn't pay attention to what they had to say either. I'm holding Goering, not the modern German military, responsable for the bombing of London.

 

My logic is simple and irrefutable...hold people accountable for their actions and their decisions. I don't hold the modern Japanese or German governments responsable because it wasn't their actions, but the actions of their predecessors.

 

Anglo? Nope....I'm caucasian, but not anglican. I only have 1 of the 4 letters of WASP. I am insulted by the inference of racism too...judging by actions is the opposite of racism - racism ignores actions and judges by genetics. Not judging by actions seems "nice", but such judgement is really half-racist, for one who holds such opinion is ignoring the person's actions.

 

The difference between Nazis and Jews is social conditioning? I will admit that there is a lot of social conditioning on the subject, but there is also a lot of substance. The Jews weren't putting the Nazis in gas chambers. The Jews didn't attempt to take over the world by force. Most importantly the Nazis were not a race, they were a political party. Those who did not want to participate in the Holocaust did not have to...it was their choice, and while there were consequences of not being a Nazi, it was still a decision.

 

Again this comes back to actions. The Jews were merely born Jewish an by and large did nothing to anybody. The Nazis became nazis by action, they signed up, and each contributed to the vast machine of genocide that was the Holocaust.

 

By the way, other than the fact that Nazi's committed genocide and started a huge and costly war, I really have no problem with them...I mean, there are disagreements other than that, but not enough to blacklist them.

 

 

 

 

How about I sidestep this whole thing and analise Goering's quote for just a moment? Now, if his quote applies to communism and democracies as he said, then certainly during WWII the same thing would have happened.

 

France and England entered WWII when Germany invaded Poland, a final step in a PATTERN of invading neighboring countries.

 

The Soviet Union started by invading Poland with Germany, but didn't REALLY enter teh war until Germany attempted to invade them.

 

The United States entered WWII with the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

 

Churchill, Stalin, and Roosevelt didn't persuade their people and convince them of an imaginary threat...the threat was real and shooting at them. Stalin didn't convince the Russians that Germany was a threat...German bullets convinced the Russians that Germany was a threat. Roosevelt didn't convince the American people that Japan was a threat, Japanese bombs convinced the Americans that Japan was a threat.

 

Goering's quote wasn't universal even for the time he lived in...it only was an accurate description of what Hitler did to start Germany's involvement in the war. It describes how facism works, but did not offer any correct insight into democracy or communism.

 

The reason the quote is inaccurate is because of Goering's nature, an nature that be know by Goering's personal actions. Goering's nature of putting himself first will assume that his struggles and experiences are the most important. To him, if he experienced something, everybody experienced it, because to him the world revolves around Goering. Thus, if that's how his government worked, that's how all governments work.

[MonteZuma]

Monte, I'm holding the people who actually did the bombings responsable...not the people who occupy a similar seat 70 years later.  If you quoted the people from Japan who were actually participated in the massacre, I wouldn't pay attention to what they had to say either.  I'm holding Goering, not the modern German military, responsable for the bombing of London.

The Chinese aren't holding today's Japanese responsible for the Nanjing massacre. They are holding them responsible for denying their history and not teaching their children about the massacre. Just as you have a problem with people ignoring or disregarding Goering's nazi background when quoting his words, the Chinese have a problem with the Japanese ignoring or downplaying their infamous WW2 history.

 

My logic is simple and irrefutable...hold people accountable for their actions and their decisions.

I'm not sure that it is simple or irrefutable, but that is exactly what the Chinese want the Japanese to do.

 

Anglo?  Nope....I'm caucasian, but not anglican.  I only have 1 of the 4 letters of WASP.

Semantics. You are conservative american all the way. Your heritage might be continental European, but your thinking isn't.

 

I am insulted by the inference of racism too

I wouldn't say you are racist. But I would say that you find it much easier to relate to white, western, english speaking cultures than any other cultures. That isn't surprising. That is herd instinct. I think you have a culture-bias. We all do.

 

...judging by actions is the opposite of racism - racism ignores actions and judges by genetics.  Not judging by actions seems "nice", but such judgement is really half-racist, for one who holds such opinion is ignoring the person's actions.

That is an oversimplification. Judging by actions alone can highlight a culture-bias. My opposition to soup-slurpers highlights my culture-bias.

 

The difference between Nazis and Jews is social conditioning?

Yes. Adolph Hitler wasn't much different to me or you when he was born.

 

Again this comes back to actions.  The Jews were merely born Jewish an by and large did nothing to anybody.  The Nazis became nazis by action, they signed up, and each contributed to the vast machine of genocide that was the Holocaust.

How exactly does an Aryan German baby that ended up as an adult nazi commander differ from a Jewish German baby that grows up to be a holocaust victim? The answer of course is that there is no difference. The difference develops because both grow up in different cultures and are subject to different socially conditioning.

 

By the way, other than the fact that Nazi's committed genocide and started a huge and costly war, I really have no problem with them...I mean, there are disagreements other than that, but not enough to blacklist them.

I'll try and forget you wrote that.

 

How about I sidestep this whole thing and analise Goering's quote for just a moment?  Now, if his quote applies to communism and democracies as he said, then certainly during WWII the same thing would have happened....Goering's quote wasn't universal even for the time he lived in...it only was an accurate description of what Hitler did to start Germany's involvement in the war.  It describes how facism works, but did not offer any correct insight into democracy or communism.

Now you are overcomplicating things. Goering said that the people don't want war, but will allow themselves to be dragged into a war if they feel their country is threatened. That seems pretty universal to me. That is the excuse that the US government used to sucker the American people into the wars in Vietnam and Iraq (for example).

 

The reason the quote is inaccurate is because of Goering's nature

Now that is illogical. Goering was very intelligent and knew more about war and manipulation of people than you or I ever will. He was an expert on the subject. He is worth listening to, even if it is just to understand how people can be manipulated to perpetrate awful deeds.

[Aileron]

Goering...intelligent? He's got to be on the top ten list of the most incompetent military leaders of all time!!! He screwed up in allowing the British army to get off France, he screwed up the Battle of Britain, and screwed up when the allies were landing on Normandy...the second two weren't particularly bad but the first he really didn't have an excuse for. During the entire war the Luftwaffe wasn't really that much of a factor despite the Germans having pretty good technology there....because Goering was a brown-nosing idiot.

 

Now Rommel on the other hand I can respect. He rose in the ranks because he was simply that !@#$%^&* smart, and the only thing he did was fight for his country.

 

 

What the Japanese teach in their schools is strictly their business. Japan is hardly covering it up.

 

 

 

I'm not a conservative American...I'm only a moderate American. I have been on the left hand side of a few arguments too. Not that many - the conservatives seem to be closer to center at the moment. My family is all Democrats-turned-Republicans for the reasons that the Republicans started making more sense over the past couple decades...I probably will turn Democrat eventually if they get their act together.

 

 

The social conditioning arguement only goes so far...in the end human beings are still sentient and still decide their own destiny. Nobody is raised to murder or steal, yet crime still occurs....and not solely from poor people who had rough childhoods. Crime occurs because ultimately people can make their own decisions whether to listen to their upbringing or not....and some decide not to listen to it.

 

This is especially true since the nazi movement barely lasted a generation. Goering didn't grow up in a nazi environment...he grew up in a Germany that was tolerant enough of jews to allow them to have jobs and serve in the military. It was his decision to get caught up in the whole thing as much as he did.

 

Human beings aren't robots that are programmed. We may learn certain things growing up, but at the end of the day the decision is ours.

 

 

I have a different opinion on Iraq. September 11th proved that we couldn't just leave the Middle East on the path it was going. Taking out the Baathist regime changed the whole political landscape. The neighboring dictatorships have a lot harder time justifying themselves now, and their position will get even worse as the new Iraqi democracy gets stronger.

 

Thus, I view it as more along the lines of Pearl Harbor causing entry into WWII than Vietnam. I'd DEFINITELY say that the American people weren't whipped up into a "frenzy"...there was no shortage of people on your side either.

 

Thus, I wouldn't say that quote was right...it justs agrees with your opinion, and that's the sickening thing of it. You are using the quote to prove your opinion and using your opinion to prove the quote. That is a classic logical error.

[MonteZuma]

Goering...intelligent?  He's got to be on the top ten list of the most incompetent military leaders of all time!!!

Humpf. The fact that Germany lost the war does not mean that Goering was incompetent, Take a look at his bio. He was obviously a smart man.

 

because Goering was a brown-nosing idiot.

Heh. He was one of the architects of the Nazi party, so it is no surprise that he stayed onside with Hitler.

 

What the Japanese teach in their schools is strictly their business.  Japan is hardly covering it up.

If the Japanese are giving their kids a distorted view of Sino-Japanese history then it is China's business as well. The Potsdam Declaration kinda made things interesting too.

 

This is especially true since the nazi movement barely lasted a generation.  Goering didn't grow up in a nazi environment...he grew up in a Germany that was tolerant enough of jews to allow them to have jobs and serve in the military.  It was his decision to get caught up in the whole thing as much as he did.

Any modern history student knows that the constraints placed on Germany following their defeat in WW1 coupled with the great depression sowed the seeds nazi extremism. The nazis exploited the breeding ground. Social conditioning en masse.

 

Human beings aren't robots that are programmed.  We may learn certain things growing up, but at the end of the day the decision is ours.

Indeed. Individuals need to be held accountable for their actions, even if their actions were influenced by social conditioning. If we didn't hold individuals accountable for their actions we would have anarchy.

 

I have a different opinion on Iraq.  September 11th proved that we couldn't just leave the Middle East on the path it was going.  Taking out the Baathist regime changed the whole political landscape.  The neighboring dictatorships have a lot harder time justifying themselves now, and their position will get even worse as the new Iraqi democracy gets stronger.

I agree. I hope the Iraqi democracy does grow stronger. But at the same time, the Iraq invasion created a focal point for Arab anti-Americanism and terrorism. Wasn't this supposed to be a war against terror? Perhaps it never was? Perhaps it was always a war against regimes we don't like?

 

Thus, I view it as more along the lines of Pearl Harbor causing entry into WWII than Vietnam.  I'd DEFINITELY say that the American people weren't whipped up into a "frenzy"...there was no shortage of people on your side either.

But Iraq was no threat to the US. The weapons inspectors demonstrated that. Hindsight demonstrates that even more clearly. Public support for the attack on Iraq was largely based on US government !@#$%^&*ertions that they were a threat. It doesn't matter whether the threat was real or not. That fits very neatly with Goering's statement.

 

As for Vietnam...I don't think Americans or any of the other peoples whose military faught in Vietnam were whipped into a frenzy, but it is quite clear that the motivation for Vietnam in the US, Australia and elsewhere was fear of the spread of communism - the yellow peril. That threat was not real either.

 

Thus, I wouldn't say that quote was right...it justs agrees with your opinion, and that's the sickening thing of it.  You are using the quote to prove your opinion and using your opinion to prove the quote.  That is a classic logical error.

I thought I was using the experience of Vietnam and Iraq as examples that supported the quote?

[Slawsauge]

im not sure if this is true( cant remember where i read it), but georing was a genius.

 

a nazi with no regard to humanity, nonetheless.

 

didnt he give a speech at the Nurmberg trials that confounded the allies?