Death penalty

[Aileron]

As for innocents wrongly convicted, what about the criminals who were caught red-handed and/or those who admit and infact bragg about it? The kind of cases where a trial is just a formality simply because its obvious. I mean, not ALL cases can offer 100% certainty, but some do, and the possibility of innocents suffering does not apply to those cases.

 

 

 

As for that "society being more progressive" bull!@#$%^&*, you seem to really have no problem with people dying as long as the responsibility of it does not fall on you. If a criminal wastes 14 people on a street, you sit back and proclaim how wrong his actions were, then change sides and proclaim how wrong society was for creating a environment that wasn't perfect for the criminal growing up. But, if we ask you to take an action, you won't because that exposes you to the possibility that your actions might be judged.

 

 

The difference between murder and execution is obvious enough to everyone. The only grey case would be if the person in question only shot murderers, like in a gangwar or something, but in such cases the criminal is almost never executed - what jury is going to be harsh on a man who with all honesty did mankind a service?

[Dav]

Do you people honestly think life in prison is worse than death?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

not when its 3 meals a day recriation in the evening.

 

If it was solitary, basic suppliments 3 times a day and the prisoner has to do work in his / her cell which can ultimatly benifit the community outside to repay some of his "debt"

[Phyran]

If I went out, killed 13 people and turned out to have no real mental problems (Statement is debatable)

I would welcome life in solitude compared to that of death.

 

To not be able to live at all would crush me, that is my deterrent.

Being able to think logically on a higher level is one of a humans best defining features.  As long as the mind is still able to work, you have taken nothing away.

 

 

My view doesn't touch rehabilitation.  That to me is another debatable topic entirely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

i have a serious problem...i isolated myself from my family and locked myself in my bedroom whenever i get home a couple years ago for several years...right now im clinically insane....

[Zeke]

Time to break this down, since I know arguing doesn't do much.

 

You left out the bits about violence, rape, AIDS, no privacy, loneliness, boredom, etc etc.  I guess some inmates are lucky enough to avoid most of those things, but you are kidding yourself if you think that prison life is better than freedom.

I never said it was better than freedom, but some people might have a different prespective than I do. My freedom sucks, I don't even get 3 meals a day, nor can I afford cable TV. As stated, some people grow up in gang infested areas, where things like TV, daily security, even a roof over their heads isn't a guarantee, like it is in the Pen.

Stays of execution save innocent or undeserving people from execution.

Then why do we have a trial, and the laws that govern them? Isn't that what finding out guilt or innocence is about? Why waste the money years at a time, when schools are needing those funds to better school children, who in turn become those murderers? Why waste all the effort when it's a whole problem of society?

People that think life is golden don't kill other people.

Sadly that's a debatable theory. You're forgetting that the US has a president who'd say life is golden ordering other people who in turn kill innocents, be it by accident or not.

Because society as a whole is more just, intelligent, compassionate, and progressive.

You must live in the suburbs then... Where I grew up it wasn't all that intelligent, compassionate, nor progressing.

You watch too much TV.  Most people on death row have a below average education and are poor.  Many have a history involving child abuse and/or psychological problems.  They live(d) ugly lives that made it possible for them to do ugly things.

That's why I used the qualifier some in my statement. Generalizing people on death row isn't something that should be done.

I haven't watched TV in three years, seeing as I can't afford cable, and local channels don't come in with my rabbit ears. I live day to day with being abused as a child, and basically being an outcast from anyone until I was 16. I don't have any felonies on my records. Hurting other people is just an excuse to make oneself feel better, as opposed to dealing or handling a problem in a civilized manner.

Life imprisonment.  Problem solved.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you said I watched too much TV. The idea is to stop crime, not just say, "Hey good job, we'll put you in a room forever, pay for everything you need and we'll never see you again." Tax money that should be going to schools and other programs to help people are lost when we have to pay for someone to stay way from other people, that doesn't solve too much. The end result as I see it, is that we're sacrificing more than just one person, for each one we keep off the streets. A possible solution I saw came from a movie I saw, where the worst of the worst people in said society were forced into military service for their country, go figure.

 

- Z

 

P.S. Oh to put it simply, I support capital punishment, but only until another viable, economically sound alturnative is found.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Zeke

[MonteZuma]

As for innocents wrongly convicted, what about the criminals who were caught red-handed and/or those who admit and infact bragg about it?  The kind of cases where a trial is just a formality simply because its obvious.  I mean, not ALL cases can offer 100% certainty, but some do, and the possibility of innocents suffering does not apply to those cases.

Even when the cases are 100% certain, I don't support the death penalty, for all of the reasons I've stated earlier.

 

As for that "society being more progressive" bull!@#$%^&*,

You think society as a whole is no better than a murderer? How sad.

 

you seem to really have no problem with people dying as long as the responsibility of it does not fall on you.

I have every problem with people dying. That is why I don't support executions and have a distatste for war. You on the other hand seem very gung ho.

 

If a criminal wastes 14 people on a street, you sit back and proclaim how wrong his actions were, then change sides and proclaim how wrong society was for creating a environment that wasn't perfect for the criminal growing up.

Killing people is wrong. Period. My standpoint is clear.

 

But, if we ask you to take an action, you won't because that exposes you to the possibility that your actions might be judged.

No. I'd have the killer psychologically !@#$%^&*essed and probably locked up for life. And then I'd try and find out why the killer did the deed. And then I'd set about making sure that, if possible, the cir!@#$%^&*stances that led to the tragedy could be avoided in future.

 

Its called a holistic approach. If more people in the medical profession took this kind of approach we'd live longer, happier and healthier lives. I think it works the same way for social diseases.

 

Execution is a knee-jerk reaction that doesn't get to the heart of the problem. If anything, I think it makes things worse.

[MonteZuma]

i have a serious problem...i isolated myself from my family and locked myself in my bedroom whenever i get home a couple years ago for several years...right now im clinically insane....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh.

 

It can happen. Join a volunteer group that packs food parcels for the poor - or something like that. An ideal way to learn important social skills and help others at the same time.

 

I like to help people

[MonteZuma]

some people might have a different prespective than I do. My freedom sucks, I don't even get 3 meals a day, nor can I afford cable TV

I think that everyone in the US and similar western countries can have 3 meals a day. If you don't, its a matter of choice, or a lack of life skills, or the result of some short-term tragedy. In the long term, everyone can get 3 meals.

 

As stated, some people grow up in gang infested areas, where things like TV, daily security, even a roof over their heads isn't a guarantee, like it is in the Pen.

A roof over your head is also something that everyone in societies like ours can have is they want it. But again, this comes down to life skills.

 

Then why do we have a trial, and the laws that govern them? Isn't that what finding out guilt or innocence is about?

Yes. But judges and juries get it wrong. This is well do!@#$%^&*ented. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that the legal system is good, but not perfect.

 

Why waste the money years at a time, when schools are needing those funds to better school children, who in turn become those murderers? Why waste all the effort when it's a whole problem of society?

Because a fair justice system is just as important to society as the education system.

 

Sadly that's a debatable theory. You're forgetting that the US has a president who'd say life is golden ordering other people who in turn kill innocents, be it by accident or not.

True. But if you look at typical case studies of peopleon death row, you know that most of them did not have a golden view of the world.

 

You must live in the suburbs then... Where I grew up it wasn't all that intelligent, compassionate, nor progressing.

Where I grew up was the same. Unemployment in my neigbourhood was about 30% Average incomes were about one third the national average. Something like a quarter of households were single parent families. Most households received some form of government !@#$%^&*istance. And as far as socio economic status was concerned, I was definitely in the bottom half of that group. I know about poverty and disadvantage.

 

Generalizing people on death row isn't something that should be done.

I think it should be. Profiling and generalising is a good way of discovering emergent themes and root causes.

 

I haven't watched TV in three years, seeing as I can't afford cable, and local channels don't come in with my rabbit ears.

I've been there. But now that I can afford cable, I still don't subscribe. You aren't missing much.

 

I live day to day with being abused as a child, and basically being an outcast from anyone until I was 16. I don't have any felonies on my records. Hurting other people is just an excuse to make oneself feel better, as opposed to dealing or handling a problem in a civilized manner.

With the exception of the abuse, I was in pretty much the same situation as you, but probably for very different reasons. I think one of the differences between you and those that don't deal with problems sensibly is intelligence. And probably other factors that haven't been mentioned.

 

The end result as I see it, is that we're sacrificing more than just one person, for each one we keep off the streets. A possible solution I saw came from a movie I saw, where the worst of the worst people in said society were forced into military service for their country, go figure.

The last thing that I would want is to have my country defended by criminals. Or to have a criminal representing my country overseas.

 

Anyway. Thanks for the post.

[»Ducky]

I think that everyone in the US and similar western countries can have 3 meals a day. If you don't, its a matter of choice, or a lack of life skills, or the result of some short-term tragedy. In the long term, everyone can get 3 meals.

A roof over your head is also something that everyone in societies like ours can have is they want it. But again, this comes down to life skills.

Only major things I disagree with.

Seen too many good people not recieve what they desearve and should otherwise be able to obtain.

 

The other points of interest are debatable one way or another.

I honestly believe in my heart that most premeditated crimes should get the harshest penalty.

There will always be someone "sick" And there will always

be those individuals who aren't. As we can't change the law on a case to case basis for the most part, there will be no consensus.

[MonteZuma]

Perhaps. I respect your viewpoint, Ducky...and yours Zeke. In fact it seems we have something in common. But its soap box time...............

 

If I was suddenly penniless and homeless and without friends or family, I know that I could find emergency accomodation. I know that I could get a unskilled job and in a very short space of time, and I could move out of emergency accommodation into something permanant. I know where I could go to get free breakfast, lunch and dinner. I know that I can get emergency funds from social services. I know how to buy food that is inexpensive and nutritious. I know how to avoid trouble, and I know that some people are bad company.

 

I can understand why a person that is mentally ill, has a low IQ and/or has few life skills could miss out on this kind of knowledge. But I can't understand why anyone that is moderately intelligent can miss the boat? Can someone explain that to me?

 

Anyway...This is why I think it is important to teach basic life skills, especially to kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who are at risk. Life skills include such things as drugs, sex education, stranger danger, how to fill out forms, how to access social services, how to apply for jobs, nutrition and health. Most schools do this these days, but some kids miss out.

 

To get this back on topic, the kids that miss out, for whatever reason, are the ones that turn into criminals. They are the ones most likely to feel left out of the system. They are the ones most likely to disrespect themselves as youths or adults, be angry at the world, and disrespect other people.

 

If we really want to reduce crime, including violent crime and murder, we need to reduce the number of people that miss the safety net. Retribution and punishment is an important part of the legal system, but addressing the causes is most important.

 

To put this into context, I was once targeted as an "at risk" child - someone who was likely to miss the safety net. But fortunately I had a little more nous and support than many of the other kids I grew up with. I've moved into a completely different socio-economic group. But I haven't forgotten what it was like on the other side of the tracks. Being stuck in a poverty trap teaches you that the world sucks. I feel sorry for anyone that is stuck there and can't see a way out.get out of it.

[Phyran]

I can understand why a person that is mentally ill, has a low IQ and/or has few life skills could miss out on this kind of knowledge. But I can't understand why anyone that is moderately intelligent can miss the boat? Can someone explain that to me?

 

laziness,determination, effort

[protoman.exe]

Are we talking about the Air India trial or Scott Peterson or what?

 

I dont support the death penalty

[»Ducky]

Good to understand. Our definition of "Life skills" differed.

 

My arguement was based soley on those who were never taught some of the things you had listed, either from a parent not supporting the childs education, or faulty education in general.

 

By your example though, we are in the same boat and have the same idea about it.

However, I am still a moderate on the issue at hand. There are times when some things are appropriate and others aren't.

To say otherwise just seems foolish.

You need a middle for this issue, not either or.

 

You will still have murderers if all such cases ended in death penalty. These killers will be the last resort types. Who believe they have little to live for. Want to make a name for themselves in some possible way. The crime is somehow 'just' in the grand scheme of things.

 

You will still have murderers if all such cases ended in life imprisonment. Why care about your crime when you know society is going to hold your hand and "rehabilitate" you on a subject you know you won't change on.

 

Granted that some murders happen 'in the moment', alot are justified in the minds of the wrong doers. A man kills his girlfriend and her secret lover due to infidelity.

He may or may not regret that. His previous lifestyle isn't a good indication on which way he will sway.

If he doesn't regret that, or find it wrong in any way, you can't possibly rehabilitate him.

Giving him life imprisonment is a joke. He did the crime with the knowledge of what would happen.

 

The things that take place in prison are highly situational to a cir!@#$%^&*stance or an area where the prison is located. I have known many people who have been in for long years now, and rape and other such nonsense isn't a daily thing. Does it happen? Sure. assault is the only one that really happens on a daily basis; And that's only if you run your mouth.

I am sure inner city prisons are different. But not all of them are the same.

 

Through all that incoherant mumbling, I am just trying to portray that the death penalty (Generally as is) should be largely situational. Not all murderers should fry, but not every single one of them should be able to live regret free either.

You can !@#$%^&*ess them to no end, spend years understanding why someone would want to kill the person they love because she ended up being an infidel; but as you are doing that, 4 other people just commited the same crime, under the same motivation.

When murder is a reactionary happenance from an act you can not control, what possible solution will you have?

 

I agree that we need to strengthen and make larger our safety net, but that is a seperate topic entirely.

[Aileron]

Look, Ducky, you support the death penalty. It is situational by definition. The debate is should ALL offenders get atmost a life sentence, or should SOME be put to death.

 

Technically speaking their is no moderate position, and anyone who thinks Saddam Hussein should be cooked supports the death penalty.

[»Ducky]

*shrug*

I support it now, the same as I did in my first post.

 

I am a moderate on the death penalty.

This specific topic debates between 'Some' and 'None', but that doesn't mean the position 'All' is nonexistant.