Iraqi Elections

[Lupper]

fine.

 

how does US society operate? Well those who have power are obviously those who are priviledged.. those who have power WANTS to keep being priviledged. So they will try any way they can to KEEP lower-class people lower class..

 

They're not out to see that lower class people become rich and climb up the social ladder. you said it yourself - michael moore is out for himself. that's the principle of a CAPITALIST society.

 

 

Ok look around you -- why is it that girls buy make-up? Why is it that they're constantly trying to be "beautiful" -- dude who even TERMED the word beautiful?

 

We live in a society full of discourses that attempt to define words such as beautiful. Some people might have their perspectives and opinions on what the word beautiful means.. I might say that Bette Midler is beautiful, but others don't.

 

Media attempts to FIX their definition of what the word "beautiful" through TV shows, commercials -- the things that EVERYONE in America is hooked on, engaged in. It's undeniable , S!@#$%^&*, that everyone in America is hooked onto their television and kids buy these products because of commercials..

 

They present britney spears as beautiful -- they say kirsty alley isn't because she's fat. they say martha stewart isn't because she's gotten fatter..

 

Isn't it funny how the media also defines the term "beautiful" yet at the same time, they also cater to "our needs" by selling us these "self-help" products like make-ups, cologne?

 

 

Look at this from a political perspective --

 

how is it that these 9-11 hijackers are "terrorists"?

 

It seems that Bush is saying - we are the Judaic-Christian America waging war against the demonic Iraqis -- it's all propaganda.. yet people buy into it.

 

Are they even "terrorists" in the first place? Or are they "heros"? They are considered heros according to the Koran. And I can not say that I am fully 100% for the Koran, but remember -- the status of these hijackers are SUBJECTIVE -- they are either HEROS or TERRORISTS..

 

A lot of america seems to think that they are terrorists because of our past conceived notions of Muslim people..

 

Take the Oklahoma bombing for example.. The first thing that the police thought was - MUSLIMS did it.. the first person they contacted was Edward Said (a Muslim expert and a Muslim himself for consulting...

 

he said that he had felt insulted because they thought it was a Muslim who did it without any evidence.. why can't it be just an average american white boy who bombed the building? Well it was an american white-boy who bombed the building..

 

We keep having these stereotypes in our minds..

 

See how America is brainwashed?

 

[EDIT] let me bring this point back to my thesis...

 

my thesis is those in power wants to keep people where they are.. as in status quo --

 

well through the use of media, and through the power CEOs and government officials INFUSING their discourses through media, obviously, they control the subjectivities of the lower class people.... thus we're nothing but lap dogs for the people in power...

[Lupper]

s!@#$%^&* - im gonna leave it at that. i've stated my position and that's all the time i'll waste on this propaganda forum.

 

I rather have people decide from what I said and what you said, and have them state their opinions, rather than having the both of us argue uncontrollably on this issue,.

[Sass]

We keep having these stereotypes in our minds..

 

See how America is brainwashed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you sure that you're not the one who is brainwashed. You just made the !@#$%^&*umption that I thought that muslims were responsible for Oklahoma. Then you told me that I'm a muslim hater. Stop with your allegations and !@#$%^&*umptions. I have muslim friends and peers who would be offended by your very words.

 

You really have no idea how to hold a political discussion do you Ophie? It's like you just keep ranting on trying to justify your pontification. That's boring, and you're creating animosity.

 

Bush didn't tell me to think one way or another. I think the way I think because I am me. Most adults are certainly capable of thinking one way or another and almost all mature people will realize that it has little to do with brainwashing. People do what they do because that's what they have determined is the best way. You make !@#$%^&*umptions cause you don't know any better.

 

Please stop posting. Thanks.

[Lupper]

We keep having these stereotypes in our minds..

 

See how America is brainwashed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you sure that you're not the one who is brainwashed. You just made the !@#$%^&*umption that I thought that muslims were responsible for Oklahoma. Then you told me that I'm a muslim hater. Stop with your allegations and !@#$%^&*umptions. I have muslim friends and peers who would be offended by your very words.

 

You really have no idea how to hold a political discussion do you Ophie? It's like you just keep ranting on trying to justify your pontification. That's boring, and you're creating animosity.

 

Bush didn't tell me to think one way or another. I think the way I think because I am me. Most adults are certainly capable of thinking one way or another and almost all mature people will realize that it has little to do with brainwashing. People do what they do because that's what they have determined is the best way. You make !@#$%^&*umptions cause you don't know any better.

 

Please stop posting. Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And because you told me to stop posting, I'll post.

 

wow somehow i just feel that the intelligence-level of this topic has just dropped by 100 because of your come back.. hey next time you're trying to burn me, just keep in mind that caustic wit takes some intelligence.

 

be right-wing conservative if you wish... I did not say that you thought the muslims were the ones responsible for oklahoma bombing. I said that FBI did

 

You just made a premature connection...

 

And I don't care what your muslim friends and peers think of what i posted. You're just stereotyping your friends thinking that they'll agree with you -- but that's just what america is about isn't it?

 

Hey guess what, I have some chinese, sri lankan, australian and british friends who would be offended by what you said. Good job. where's the !@#$%^&*ing substance? I don't know how to hold a political discussion? Look at you. Your post contained no substance of any ring of factual truth.

[MasterDrake]

Quick Comment on the people sending letters to micheal moore are reservist. All they do it is sit back in collect a checkfor 250 each month and suddenly they have to work for it that is bs. And for the active duty they signed the dotted line and the knew what they were getting into so they need to stop !@#$%^&*ing.

 

Note to you I am also active duty and they need STFU. If they decide to send me I'm going because that is what I am told and if I die I die. !@#$%^&* happens get used to it man.

[MasterDrake]

O and if you have been keeping up with your current news the UN is !@#$%^&*ing up left and right nice to get their permission when they are !@#$%^&*ing up worse.

[Sass]

Ophie will believe whatever his neverending imagination will tell him to think. We call it spin.

 

Ophie, I hate to say it, but stop putting your foot in your mouth. Every post you make is worse than the next. It's obvious that you are a beginner to political discussion. When you post, please keep it to politics. You haven't done that. You've gotten personal with me.

 

Thanks.

[Lupper]

Ophie will believe whatever his neverending imagination will tell him to think.  We call it spin.

 

Ophie, I hate to say it, but stop putting your foot in your mouth.  Every post you make is worse than the next.  Keep it to politics.  You haven't done that. You've gotten personal with me.

 

Maybe you can Dav can team up and come up with something at least humorous.  lol!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rofl.. You just can't face sociological truth. You make these stories up about how great america is and how it's so free so that you don't have to face the dark underbelly of society.

 

The thing is, you are narrow minded. You're like, "oh, ophie posted. I can't be bothered by that, he's younger than me. he doesn't know as much as i do."

 

I've gotten personal with you? I've always gotten personal with you, !@#$%^&*. You're just blind.

 

Listen, lets keep the insults in our PMs... and the political discussions in here..

[Sass]

Ophie, once again, you did it. You made more conjecture.

 

I'm starting to feel like this is a struggle with futility Ophie. Get a hold of a dictionary, then an almanac. I don't care how old you are, or how young you are. You post nothing but hearsay and blasphemy and no valid arguments.

[Lupper]

Ophie, once again, you did it.  You made more conjecture.

 

I'm starting to feel like this is a struggle with futility Ophie.  Get a hold of a dictionary, then an almanac.  I don't care how old you are, or how young you are.  You post nothing but hearsay and blasphemy and no valid arguments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I will, once you start to intelligently debate the point that i brought up earlier (the one in which i spent a half hour typing up)...

 

You gave me nothing but a half-witted 2 minute reply, insulting my personality, rather than the argument itself.

 

What i said, should make logical sense, if you possess any of it.

[Sass]

You have no valid argument ophie. As I clearly stated from the start, everything you say is conjecture. Nothing intellectual can be said about someone who just pontificates. You lost credibility with those posts, and you continue to lose this battle attempting to validate them.

 

Sadly I'll have to let you go. You are truly ignorant of facts and since I don't care to dwell amidst your media-ridden opinion of things like the cold war, and things that happened before you were born. When you have educated yourself, I will engage in a discussion with you.

 

For now, I'm going to go see a movie. Later.

[Lupper]

Rofl..

 

you say i have no valid argument -- then point it out! prove that my arguments aren't valid.

 

So far i've seen nothing. I think you've lost credibility because every post you made was "ophie your arguments are not valid" yet you don't even go out of your own way of pointing out what wasn't valid.

 

you take it a step further my insulting my intelligence? Come on dude... seriously, you're the one who took this personally FIRST, not me.

[Dav]

S!@#$%^&* let me ask you a question. Do you believe evrything you hear on the news channel about whats going on in irak and about terror?

[Sass]

I have a brother in Iraq. Would you care to discuss it?

[Dav]

so surely you can hear things that the news reports like innocent iraquis being caught in the crossfire and deaths on the other side.

[MasterDrake]

Dav, its called war people get killed and !@#$%^&* happens; thinking back to earlier wars the losses were alot more. So I believe we are doing pretty !@#$%^&* good. For all of you, quit bashing the US just for not listening and doing its own thing.

[Dav]

The not just listining and doing its own thing is the issue that troubles me most. What if iraq is only a single instance? what if america goes off and begins another war without UN following?

 

The whole point of the UN is that world nations can solve problems without resorting to forse unless its absolutly neccacary. The main idea of it is to stop WWIII ever happening.

 

If america goes on without the UN what is the point? If the USA thinks its above the rest of the world and the UN is wrong then we are in trouble as oither nations may feel they are wasting thier time and the UN will eventually break down. You all have to agree that that would bot be a favorable situation.

 

This is an interesting read concerning the league of nations (the UNs predessor) which broke down and soon after WWII began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations

[Sass]

Dav that read is no more interesting than trying to figure out what you intend to say. Most of the folks here know and understand what caused the League of Nations to fail.

 

If you REALLY think that America is soon going to attempt to take over the world, you have a newb's view of America. Last time I checked, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, and many other nations including Iraq and people were protected from the wrath of warlords and tyrants because the US stepped in....now you think we're going to keep blazing a trail all the way to China? That's not laughable, it's insulting considering the number of humanitarian things the US does in comparison to other nations.

[Dav]

i think you are forggetting the reasons for going to iraq that were stated, it was proposed to the UN that iraq had WMDs and was capable of being a threat to other nations. This is now undaoubtedly wrong.

 

The humanitirain issue was never the principle reason for going to war. If it were things may have bee doffrent but the UN did not give support for a war on the WMD evedance put forward.

[MonteZuma]

BTW, if you don't like America Ophie, surely you should leave it.

Why do some people think it is unpatriotic to question your own government's policies?

 

The sunni muslims who are a minority of like 30% are the main insurgents.  Many of whom were part of the tyranical baath party led by Saddam. The majority of the ppl are shiite muslims who desire peace and seek to have representation.  This is basically the grounds for the Jan 30 vote.

That is shaky ground. If the same thing happend in the US, and blacks boycotted the election, or southerners, then nobody would say that the election resulted in a fair or democratic outcome for everybody.

 

If you are going to believe that this is all part of America's 'neo-colonialism' as some ppl will call it, perhaps you would be better with the facts.  The facts are that Allawi's group is not winning the election, but rather a group of people who are completely Iraqi having little to no influence from America are leading.

Only time will tell. But I don't think the US government will hand over sovereignty to anyone that might eventually become as bad, or worse, than Saddam - even if the Iraqi people voted that way.

 

Half the people in this forum are Anti-US and will trash the US at any given moment.

That is BS. Most people in this forum and everywhere else in the world aren't anti US. But most people outside the US do think that US foreign policy sucks. The day the US government understands this will be the day that the "war on terror" can be declared fought and won.

[MonteZuma]

I have a brother in Iraq.  Would you care to discuss it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sure. What does he do over there? Does your bro feel like he is making a difference? Are his letters/calls censored or can he say what he likes? Does he like the Iraqi people?

 

I reckon it'd make an interesting topic of discussion.

 

But do you really think he knows any more about the politics of the situation than an analyst in North America or anywhere else? He might be too close to the action to have a balanced view of what is going on? And he might be too busy avoiding sniper fire or peeling potatoes to think much about it. Maybe he can't even point Iraq out on a map of the world?

 

The above is said tongue in cheek. I think anybody putting their life at risk for their government (if that is what he is doing) deserves utmost respect, but I doubt that most people doing a tour of duty in Iraq know much more about the big picture than you or I. Although some probably know more than we ever will about how lucky we are to live where we do.

[MonteZuma]

Dav, its called war people get killed and !@#$%^&* happens; thinking back to earlier wars the losses were alot more. So I believe we are doing pretty !@#$%^&* good. For all of you, quit bashing the US just for not listening and doing its own thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure that I agree with this logic. The acid test will be whether or not the world is safer - and whether or not the Iraqi people will be better off.

 

At this time, I'm thinking that the world is more dangerous and most Iraqis are no better off. Only time will tell if we look back on Iraq as a successful campaign or a waste of human life.

[Sass]

The USA is a great nation because it has a free system where expression and objectiveness is par for citizenship. It DOES NOT stem however from people who say things like "someone should start an anti-american propaganda campaign". I'm quite sure that it would be condemned here from a Canadian and unless he owns a duel-citizenship, he clearly stated that he's not from the USA. You read that right?

 

While you continue questioning OUR policy Mr. "I have a big member" (should be replaced with "I have a big head") who lives in "God's Country" wherever that may be (since God created the earth, or do you follow some neo-evangilistic view of the God of the Bible?"), how about considering the actions of your government? How about actively participating in it so you can stop it from the mistakes it makes.

 

The truth of the matter is you're so busy throwing dirt at the USA you fail to know much about your own country. Tell me where you are from foreigner, and I will bring up so much dirt about your country you will be scared to come back to this forum.

[Sass]

But do you really think he knows any more about the politics of the situation than an analyst in North America or anywhere else?  He might be too close to the action to have a balanced view of what is going on?  And he might be too busy avoiding sniper fire or peeling potatoes to think much about it.  Maybe he can't even point Iraq out on a map of the world?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you really know anything about it. While you've trashed my brother with claims such as "Maybe he can't even point Iraq out on a map of the world?" can I be !@#$%^&*ured that you can? Would that be relevant to the discussion or are you trying to pursuade young political forum readers that US Marines are stupid. I take objection to that regardless if you try to back it up with "utmost respect" which you obviously do NOT have.

[Aileron]

Its been a while, but I think Monte is from Australia. Believe it or not Monte, most Americans can find Iraq on a map...any report that says otherwise was made by people selecting the dumbest participants they could find.

 

Actually I thought the sunnis were 20%. Also, the majority of the insurgents are foreign nationals, though other than that its all sunnis.

 

Comparing the case of sunnis to black or southerners boycotting an election doesn't work...during the time before the civil rights movement, blacks were forced away from the polls. They had every desire to vote, but were forcibly not allowed to.

 

Anyways, the sunni vote count really doesn't matter over the long term. Whatever the result of the new government, sunnis are used to 100% control and probably view anything less as unnacceptible. They are used to having an unreasonable advantage, so any reasonable government is not going to get approval from them.

 

Still, expect full turnout next election. When it becomes clear to the sunnis that they will excert more power casting ballots than blowing things up, they will vote. Them doing so won't end hostilities...there would still be foreign terrorists running around, but that will be when we can pull US forces.

 

 

I'd venture to say that we have the situation in checkmate. No one can say have much time and how many lives the war will cost, but I'd say given Iraq's history, this would work. While 20% of Iraqis hate the new democracy, % have been waiting years for this.

 

The insurgents can't turn this conflict into Vietnam. Vietnam was two countries, Iraq is one. North Vietnam had a standing army that could actually occupy territory. Insurgents in Iraq might be able to bomb a building, but they can't hold it. They can hide all they want, but when they crawl out of their caves ten years from now, they will find that we installed democracy without them. They can set up roadside bombs all they want, they will kill people, but that won't really change anything. Guerella tactics can't be used to gain territory, and without it they can't do much other than pointless killing.

 

As for Iraq's dislike of foreign occupations, it stemmed from the Mongol invasion, in which the almost the entire civilian population of Baghdad was wiped out. They really don't hate occupants as much as foreign groups that waltz in and start killing non combatants, and right now Al Queda is fitting the description more than the US is.

 

As for the chance of democracy working in Iraq, I think we are all going to be suprised. The region has been more progressive than the rest of the world since Sumeria. Whether they were called Sumeria, Akkadia, Babylon, Abbasid, or Persia, they have always been one step ahead of the world socially until the Mongol invasion and Ottoman occupation put a 250 year freeze on it. About half of what we know as democracy today was actually created in this territory by people of this cultural background. Given Iraq's history, they will form a stable democracy in 10 years and start teaching Europe a few things about it in 20.

 

But the biggest reason is the american homefront. That is where Vietnam was truly lost, and negative people are trying to do it again. However, during the time of Vietnam the public turned on our soldiers. Thankfully, at this time nobody will dare cross that line. Both sides of the political spectrum are behind our soldiers, and as long as our soldiers are willing to fight, we won't give up.

 

So, success in Iraq really boils down to the resolve of US soldiers. I'd say off my gut there is a 97% chance of success in Iraq, because I can't even imagine how the insurgents can intimidate a US soldier.