Moral values

[»Ducky]

Aight, I getcha. I was !@#$%^&*uming it was that thought process, but wanted to clarify.

 

I guess..

"And a lot of these conservatives are also against homosexuality. Well who has fewer abortions than homosexuals? You'd think these people would be natural allies."

 

Would be a more suitable quote? lol

[Dr.Worthless]

ROFL, now there's a classic Carlin..

[white_0men]

Perhaps it's just my opinion, but the church shouldn't even exist in the state's eyes.

 

I cringe every time I hear Bush mention God.

[Dr.Worthless]

Perhaps it's just my opinion, but the church shouldn't even exist in the state's eyes.

 

I cringe every time I hear Bush mention God.

 

Nah, more than just you share the opinion.

 

I find a sense of security in the fact that Bush would openly mention "God".

[Bacchus]

I'm a liberal-atheist gay, and i'm having lotsa fun. Do you?

[Bacchus]

i'm experiencing difficulties following this topic. What is it yet you're not agreeing with gay marriage?

[Dr.Worthless]

I'm a liberal-atheist gay, and i'm having lotsa fun. Do you?

 

My life overflows with fun. Up until 3:00 finishing this paper, now up at 8:00 to go turn it in, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Aileron]

Look athiests, take an anthropology class, see how societies NEED religion in order to survive, then come back. Society cannot function without religion any more than it can function without government, science, business or education. You guys don't like religion, so you want to deny that fact, but its still ture.

 

Yeah, the fact that Bush mentions God shows that he won't hide his beliefs to be politically correct. The ramifications of that are so obvious they don't need to be mentioned.

[Bacchus]

ooh, you ARE an actual anthropologist or are you just mentionning that out of divine inspiration?

 

 

look, I couldn't care less about religion. We'd all be better off without it.

 

 

If you think that God is the answer, good for you. But when "religious ideals" gets in the way of peace and tolerance, i just have no mercy on them.

 

Religion, and God, is supposed to be about love, mutual understanding, knowledge of self, respect, tolerance.

 

It failed miserably.

 

 

Do we, as a society, need religion?

 

Well, come here Ail, religion is at an all time low and when we hear god's name it's usually a swear.

 

Humankind is just to thick headed to be autonomous, it needs to be re!@#$%^&*ured through parting clouds and sunlight that :" WE HAVE A HOLY MISSION!"

 

It's what Taylor (one of your philosopher) called the "theory terrorism", conviction kills discussion. Ultimately you'll be right if God is in the picture...why would I, for one, wnat to discuss things over?

 

Moreover, i'm gay and you seem to think that i'm "unnatural" somehow. To me Ail, you're just another "religiously impaired" person.

[A Soldier]

Well, come here Ail, religion is at an all time low and when we hear god's name it's usually a swear.

Tabarnak

(couldn't help it)=(

[Dr.Worthless]

Well, come here Ail, religion is at an all time low and when we hear god's name it's usually a swear.

 

Who's we, got a turd in your pocket?

[Bacchus]

man...

 

worth, get over it.

 

I'm not alone in my lonely island you moronic freak. We as in "we from Quebec". Do you want me to draw you a "we" or you'll be clever enough to look for it with google?

 

calvaire, crisse qui peuvent être colons...(sry, couldn't help it)

[A Soldier]

calvaire, crisse qui peuvent être colons...(sry, couldn't help it)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lmao.. 'sti!

[Dr.Worthless]

I'm not alone in my lonely island you moronic freak. We as in "we from Quebec". Do you want me to draw you a "we" or you'll be clever enough to look for it with google?

LoL, easy there killer, it was in jest. You spoke for a wonderful "we" en-*BAD WORD*-y that you hadn't refered to earlier in the post. Excuse me for not knowing that you can speak for all of Quebec!

 

calvaire, crisse qui peuvent être colons...(sry, couldn't help it)

 

Here's my french "Go !@#$%^&* yourself"

[»Ducky]

lol, whoa there mate...

At least I never said take religion from society completely.

 

Just take it far enough from public eye so that my grandchildren can get rid of the !@#$%^&* thing when I am 90.

 

As said earlier, faith is great... But to build a society on something unproven and faith based is just ridiculus. I say unproven in the manner that, if it were true fact (That god took every thursday off and talked to people.. So on and so forth) that everyone would believe he existed and there would be no doubt about that said religion what so ever.

 

I don't want my real life laws to get entangled any which way with that of something I cannot see or talk to. When I choose to worship that of what I do, I do it in private. I respect people around me and quietly note they are all going to burn in -*BAD WORD*- (Or whatever my diseased afterlife is.) I don't want to go out and post my 'rules' on schools or public buildings. I don't try and convert non believers. I don't try to dictate someone elses life according to the invisible force I trust in.

That's just the way I am, and I appologize if that hinders my arguement in any way.

[Dr.Worthless]

Yeah, sorry, my reply was alittle harsh. Warranted though. Bacchus is a heavy United States basher and I grow tired of him quickly.

 

I also thought it was rediculous that he speaks for Quebec and says "Religion is on the decline and the only time we hear "God" is in a curse phrase" Well guess what bacchus, religion is something you have to actively participate in. If you choose not to, of course you aren't going to hear anything about it.

 

Do we, as a society, need religion?

 

Well, come here Ail, religion is at an all time low and when we hear god's name it's usually a swear.

 

So to me that implies that since (there in quebec) religion is on the decline and no one says "God's Name" without it being a swear, we can survive without religion.

 

Well, come here Bacchus, homosexuality is low here in arkansas and the only time I hear "Gay" is in a negative fashion...

 

 

 

(Sorry.. I just couldn't resist...)

 

I just hope next time I can be the bigger guy and not bash back...

[Aileron]

Just take it far enough from public eye so that my grandchildren can get rid of the !@#$%^&* thing when I am 90. 

 

You honestly think that is mutually acceptable? That isn't a compromise, that is your opinion. Look, the MINIMUM compromise that can be had here is for Christianity to survive in some corner of the world until the end of time. Anything less shouldn't even be brought to the table.

 

Keep in mind that it is in YOUR mind that religion in unproven. Also keep in mind that atheism is as unproven as anything else. We simply do not know what the correct view is on this subject, or if there is a correct view at all. To say that in 90 years we should drop everything and pick up athiesm is bigotry equal to religious discrimination.

[Bacchus]

I'm not an atheist but i firmly believe that God, Allah, whoelse omnipotent, has no place in human politics and moral ground. We need to go beyond the belief that there will be salvation for those of the faith.

The idea that some can be saved while others won't is an idea that leads to exclusion and intolerance.

 

I don't believe that humankind belongs to a grand scheme of betterment. I believe that humankind is just another specie with no special privileges other then being very adaptable, thanks to our mind. As such, the only thing that matters is well being for a maximum of people, religion happens to be in the way. Christiannity is particularly troublesome...

 

I see progress in "atheism", call it what you want...Hume called it "deism", i call it being realist although this could be debated since it won't happen anytime soon.

 

I think this could be moved to a "religion" topic btw.

[MasterDrake]

I don't believe religion should be done away with it helps alot of people and its a very good cause. If you don't like religion and want nothing ot do with it thats fine don't condem others for seeking it.

 

I personally believe that there is some greater being out there because I can't imagine that the universe just always existed something had to of made all of this. People need to put away all these petty differences and start getting along. I realize I was harss on you ducky I was just !@#$%^&*ing around I don't have a problem with gays I just don't believe they should be allowed to be married thats my opinion and I can have it.

 

Moving on I think that everything would be alot of better for everyone if we stopped all this greed and obsession over things.

 

EG Big Oil trying so hard to stop the manufactering of Hydrogen Powered Cars

 

If you look at it really you will see that most of all these conflicts are over 1. Greed, 2. Land and 3. Hatred due to the way someone is brought up.

 

I end by saying you believe what you want just don't talk badly about someone else's beliefs just because you don't agree. I know I might be called a hypocrite I apologize for doing this to anyone, sometimes people can get you really frustrated and angry.

[»Ducky]

You honestly think that is mutually acceptable? That isn't a compromise, that is your opinion. Look, the MINIMUM compromise that can be had here is for Christianity to survive in some corner of the world until the end of time. Anything less shouldn't even be brought to the table.

 

Keep in mind that it is in YOUR mind that religion in unproven. Also keep in mind that atheism is as unproven as anything else. We simply do not know what the correct view is on this subject, or if there is a correct view at all. To say that in 90 years we should drop everything and pick up athiesm is bigotry equal to religious discrimination.

Whoa there sparky.

Get it out of our legal system completely in 90 years. Get it away from the public scene.

Not abolish it completely.. rofl

It lasted how many thousand years and I want it gone in 90? Not bloody likely.

 

"In my mind" It is unproven.

Whats going to happen after you die?

Is god real?

Is god fake?

Questions you can't answer.

Unproven facts are things you cannot answer. It isn't my opinion, it is reality. Your !@#$%^&*umptions on the idea are not fact, those are opinions.

Sure, you can cite individual things and pick out what has been historically accurate and what not. But overall, you have no way of proving anything.

You can prove Jesus was real, but can you prove he was the son of god? Not a chance.

Hense the reason everyone in the world isn't one religion.

 

I respect the amount of faith you have, but if it isn't reality, I will exclude it. I appologize before hand for that.

 

Drake, I have no qualms with you, a few bumpy disagreements.. but all is well.

I also believe in a divine en-*BAD WORD*-y, as something somewhere had to create the very elements it took for the universe to be created.

Were humans created in his likeness? Not at all, I trust the statement is one of the highest in ignorance ever discussed. Divine plan? Possibly, but who has proof.

Just like greeks and romans created diety's so that they may have an understanding of the world, so did we create god in our likeness. Can't explain something? God was behind it. Only as time moves on, we are uncoverring things that disprove these faiths. (Evolution)

 

Opinion, and extremely valid, so pick my words apart and post what you want me to clarify.

[Dr.Worthless]

Just like greeks and romans created diety's so that they may have an understanding of the world, so did we create god in our likeness. Can't explain something? God was behind it. Only as time moves on, we are uncoverring things that disprove these faiths. (Evolution)

 

Simply put I suppose, believing in "God" is just as valid as believing in "Science". Creationism has just as many holes (if not fewer) than evolution.

[»Ducky]

Science is acknowledged as the superior factual part.

We aren't taught religion in schools, but science sure is.

Both have holes yes, but overall, science will take priority for me.

 

It's more of a innocent until proven guilty idea at the moment; Only, Unproven until proven (With people whom think as I do) vs proven until unproven. (Like most religious followers are.)

[Dr.Worthless]

Science is acknowledged as the superior factual part.

We aren't taught religion in schools, but science sure is.

Both have holes yes, but overall, science will take priority for me.

 

It's more of a innocent until proven guilty idea at the moment; Only, Unproven until proven (With people whom think as I do) vs proven until unproven. (Like most religious followers are.)

Really, you're delving into philosophy here.

 

Science is the study of what is already around us. We don't actually "Learn" science, we discover it. Science is not a creation of man, it was already existant. So what created it? Science sure didn't... nothing can be the means of its own existance, and if it is, it is by definition "God"

 

You all are guilty of confusing "Religion" with "Organized Religion". I realize that practically everyone that has grown up in a society that is religious based (Practically Everyone) that you've had bad experiences with organized religion that has probably caused you to turn away from it. Organized Religion is man created. Religion is "God" created.

 

Unproven until proven (With people whom think as I do) vs proven until unproven. (Like most religious followers are.)

 

HuH? You're losing me here. "Unproven until proven.." Ever hear the saying "Proof is in the pudding" ? Here's a philisophical question for you.

 

Lets pretend that you have never seen a watch before, and have no clue what it is. You are wandering through a field one day and discover an object (we know it as a watch). Its got nicely crafted leather straps with holes in them. The timepiece itself has a lens shaped gl!@#$%^&* covering, which covers little sticks that move. You break the object open and see all these tiny gears, and a tiny battery running the gears. You marvel at the intracacies of this new found object, and wonder where on earth it came from.

 

A logical person would deduce that it was made by an intelligent being. The object is simply to complex to be made by nature. There's to many parts comprising it, and to much precision involved with the instruments.

 

Now, Apply that to say, the Human eye. The lens in the eye is bent in such a precise way that it allows us clear vision. Movements smaller than Millimeters will change the focus. There's tons of other complex intracacies of the eye, rods and cones, color comprehension, expanding pupils to allow more light in when its dim/less when its bright. Then there's the whole optic nerve thing that I really dunno HOW it sends light reflections to the brain, then the brain having the ability to enterpret these things into seeable objects.. There's to much complexity for these things to just have happened at random.

 

"Proof is in the Pudding".. It is a matter of "proven until unproven" because there simply is NOT a better answer. Its not a matter of accepting an answer because a book told us to, "God" is the best answer to these complex questions, and until other theories are presented that are more sound than an intellectual being creating these complex systems, thats what I'm believing in.

[»Ducky]

Science is the study of what is already around us. We don't actually "Learn" science, we discover it. Science is not a creation of man, it was already existant. So what created it? Science sure didn't... nothing can be the means of its own existance, and if it is, it is by definition "God"

Learning is to become aware of. We learn science by discovering it.

As said already, I do not debate the very existance of a god like force. But to alott him credit for everything past and present is completely inane.

To believe that no matter your choice, you are fated to one divine plan breeds hopelessness.

 

You all are guilty of confusing "Religion" with "Organized Religion". I realize that practically everyone that has grown up in a society that is religious based (Practically Everyone) that you've had bad experiences with organized religion that has probably caused you to turn away from it. Organized Religion is man created. Religion is "God" created.

There was no cause for me to turn away from religion, I am very much into it. I choose not to speak openly about my invisible unproven beliefs. These are my personal ethics.

Religion is no where near God created. Someone says or does something, and until it is acknowledged by other people (Who essentially are giving life and creating it) it is nothing. Murder is not murder until Jake at BurgerKing claims it is. It was just killing at the time.

The idea of religion was proposed to human, and when they accepted, that is when its initial creation took place. Without acknowledgement, it was just a floating idea.

 

HuH? You're losing me here. "Unproven until proven.." Ever hear the saying "Proof is in the pudding" ? Here's a philisophical question for you.

 

Lets pretend that you have never seen a watch before, and have no clue what it is. You are wandering through a field one day and discover an object (we know it as a watch). Its got nicely crafted leather straps with holes in them. The timepiece itself has a lens shaped gl!@#$%^&* covering, which covers little sticks that move. You break the object open and see all these tiny gears, and a tiny battery running the gears. You marvel at the intracacies of this new found object, and wonder where on earth it came from.

 

A logical person would deduce that it was made by an intelligent being. The object is simply to complex to be made by nature. There's to many parts comprising it, and to much precision involved with the instruments.

 

Now, Apply that to say, the Human eye. The lens in the eye is bent in such a precise way that it allows us clear vision. Movements smaller than Millimeters will change the focus. There's tons of other complex intracacies of the eye, rods and cones, color comprehension, expanding pupils to allow more light in when its dim/less when its bright. Then there's the whole optic nerve thing that I really dunno HOW it sends light reflections to the brain, then the brain having the ability to enterpret these things into seeable objects.. There's to much complexity for these things to just have happened at random.

This is where our "logic" differs greatly.

 

Machine vs organism. Because I accept that adaptation and evolution DO take place, you simply cannot make a comparison.

The same animals we have today were different from those found in the past. Why would there be any reason humans would be exempt from this.

A machine holds no qualities of an organism, and that is why it is classified as such.

 

 

"Proof is in the Pudding".. It is a matter of "proven until unproven" because there simply is NOT a better answer. Its not a matter of accepting an answer because a book told us to, "God" is the best answer to these complex questions, and until other theories are presented that are more sound than an intellectual being creating these complex systems, thats what I'm believing in.

That is perfectly fine, but to me, using god as a scapegoat of sorts for our own ignorance isn't how I want to convey myself.

I would rather say, "I don't know the answer at the moment, but when I figure it out, I will be sure to tell you."

rather than

"The problem is too hard, God is behind it."

[MonteZuma]

The philosophy of science gives me a headache.

 

Don't mean to pick on you Dr...I've had a problem with a few points raised by just about everybody and just decided to chime in here.... Some random points (take them or leave them):

 

* What is the difference between learning and discovery?

 

* A constructivist would probably argue that science is a creation of man.

 

* The thing that science and christianity have in common is an understanding that not everything is knowable.

 

* Religion is not God created. Some religions don't have a God. I think one of the biggest confusions here is between Christianity and religion.

 

* The human eye isn't perfect. If it was 'designed', our vision could have been designed better. The same goes for the rest of the body. I've read plausable articles that explain the evolution of the human eye.

 

* I think your watch analogy could easily be used against you. If I had never seen a watch before, and had never seen any similar technology, I might think that it was designed by a higher being - maybe aliens, or maybe some kind of deity. That is exactly the !@#$%^&*umption that you are making about the human eye. You don't understand it or how it was created so it must be evidence of God. Fiddlesticks.

 

* Christianity is built on faith. Faith requires no proof. It just is. Hence no-one will ever be able to disprove the existance of God. But by the same token you will never be able to disprove the existance of one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eaters. That doesn't mean they exist.