Idiot protestors

[Bacchus]

you're hopeless.

 

You can't deny that anti-americanism is rather omnipresent nowadays, and that feeling is triggered precisely by this..err...stance of yours. Can't you see? You don't ask questions, don't try to understand basic anthropological notions, you'll hear no cultural argument, no economical arguments which isn't falling in classical USA way of thinking and you're ready to go all guns blazing the minute someone disagree.

 

hey, wake up, USA is killing people too and it's doing a very good job..is it any different from you that someone want to enact some form of retribution on USA citizens?

 

USA is the only superpower in the world, it's an historical first GG., when it moves, it's like an elephant in a dolls house or however the saying goes, if it acts carelessly it breaks stuff...and at present time USA is trashing around, oblivious to the damage its doing.

 

 

now i can't get any clearer or simpler thant that.

[Guest Recombo]

Few educated Americans lack the understanding of what damage is caused by both America and its enemy nations. But you're missing the main point Bacchus...

 

You think that America just wants to kill everyone and force its ways on them. The fundamental truth could not be further from that.

 

After WWII we rebuilt Germany and through the years established a peaceful accord with them. After the cold war, nations of the former Soviet Union entered into a peace process with America. Even today, America seeks to desperately help those nations. We feel the pain of that terrorist action where more than 350 kids and teachers were killed over there.

 

The cold hard truth to why many Iraqi's are being killed is blatantly simple. A few educated rebels are sitting in mosques recruiting kids to fight their war. That is an attack by your people on your people. I'm not trying to turn this around, I'm simply pointing to the fact that middle east kids are confusing Islam with war. Look how many militants Sadr Mqtadr recruited. All in the name of ?Islam? If it was in the name of Islam, it would be for peacefully praising allah. BUT IT WASN'T - HE RECRUITED KIDS TO PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE - and now - he goes free.

 

Stop blaming the USA for retaliating. If Iatollah Sistani can make peace, others can too - and that is the solution here. We'll leave them alone when the threat to our nation subsides. Until then, many innocent people will get in the way while trying to destroy the militants who want nothing but to kill USA. That is very unfortunate.

[Aileron]

Well, the US isn't the world's first superpower by a long shot, though it depends on your definition of the word superpower. Most people's definition would atleast include anchient Rome, who put the second "R" in arrogant and still lasted

thousands of years.

 

Do you honestly think we come to our decisions quickly or carelessly, without reference to the history of the world? I know atleast I have studied history and other cultures, and I agree with the current string of actions. Therefore I doubt the leadership is acting in a careless fashion.

 

Compaire the current Middle Eastern cultures to the many great one throughout history. The greater Middle Eastern cultures practiced tolerence, made revolutionary strides for government (such as basic codes of law.), and were very open to other cultures. They set up universities and consolidated the sciences or their times. Their cities were centers of commerce and innovations.

 

The people we are facing are in no way defenders of the cultural heritage. They are hijackers of their culture and their religion who use it as a ploy to defend their backwards line of thought. Not one of the great Middle Eastern nations was ruled by a warlord or dictator, though some were ruled by Emperors and Monarchs.

 

"Jihad" by origional definitions meant AVOIDING civilian casualties, no matter how difficult the fight. I know facing our armed forces is difficult, but somebody who is truly righteous and brilliant could fight the good fight and win.

 

Ironically, by imposing democracy on the Middle East, we are probably preserving more of their culture than we are destroying. It was after all the Middle East that created the very first roots of democracy. Their cultural heritage is that of being progressive, commercial, and tolerant. We are doing the opposite of taking away their culture, we are reinstating it.

 

Besides, cultures are not moral goal. People are the moral goal.

 

Also, even if we are wrong, please pardon our desire to continue our own existence.

 

At very least we will get them to work with each other. At very least, if we piss all of them off against us, they will unite their many ideals. Democracy is not an ideal that is dependant on culture. The forms of governments that came before were universal. You could find Emperors as far west as the Aztecs and far east as Japan. If the monarchy and imperial models are unviversal, it is likely that democracy is too.

 

I know you are axious to see the next great nation to arise and bring the US to her knees, but know this. That nation is not the middle east. The nation that takes the US down will be one of superior thought, one that looks to the future rather than clings to the past. Al Queda and the warlord system are nothing but dark-aged rulers who overlived their usefullness to the world.

 

That is the true reason why they use suicide !@#$%^&*aults. They know the time for the oppresive ways of government that they represent is over.

[Aileron]

Was that reasoning carefull and thought-out enough, or should I come back tomorrow with a longer post?

[Vile Requiem]

Besides the fact that if China isn't the other world superpower already it's very close, the thread's going along pretty well atm.

[Bacchus]

ok, you just beated me into submission.

 

you're right off course,

 

Democracy can be imposed, war can make peace, american dream is good for everyone and gun control sucks.

 

Recombo also is right: I'm a foreign immigrant and i'm still a kid, therefore i'm anti-american.

 

 

 

 

oh, btw, i meant that USA was the only superpower atm, not that it was the first...

[Dr.Worthless]

Democracy can be imposed, war can make peace, american dream is good for everyone and gun control sucks.

 

Let me ask you something bacchus.. Why did it take US invading and removing Saddam from power to get the rest of the world to give a flying -*BAD WORD*- about the citizens of Iraq? Up until we invaded, all the European nations were willing to do was p!@#$%^&* resolutions which they had no intentions of keeping.

[MonteZuma]

Besides, hatred is an emotion.  By definition, emotions do not always have to be rational.  Thus, it is faulty to assume that any hatred was gotten by logical means without proof.  Look at the Nazi's treatment of the Jews.  Did the jews do anything to deserve that level of hatred from the Nazis?  Sometimes hatred is brought on by ones actions.  Most of the time however, it is merely the result of selective mental conditioning.

Its interesting and apt that you compare terrorism to the nazis and anti-semitism.

 

The German people fell for whacky Nazi ideology because it offered a very simple explanation and solution to a complex problem. They used the jews and others as scape-goats to explain away every problem that faced German society.

 

The war on terror offers a simple solution to a complex problem. People want to believe that the world will become better if we send some troops into Iraq. They don't want to believe that terrorism is intractable. That terrorism stems from deep-seated idealogical, cultural and religious differences, western decadence and cultural imperialism. They don't want to believe that to fight terrorism you actually need to be deal with those kinds of issues over a long perios. People want to think you can fix the problem remotely using cruise missiles and have the troops home by Christmas.

 

Thousands of Iraqi kids are being mentally conditioned right now. Not for the better.

[Aileron]

No, terrorism stems from Middle Eastern cultural decadence in the face of growing western cultural strength. The old Middle Eastern nations were greater and more progressive than any current faction.

 

I'll try an easier approach. If terrorism springs from the US' own actions, what has Russia done to deserve their recent hijackings? What did Spain do to deserve the train attacks a few months ago? When they attack Great Britain or Australia, what then will you say your countries did to deserve those attacks?

 

Terrorists are like a dying fish. The fundimentalist section of their culture is dying and is going to be replaced by a better more progressive version of their culture. Even now, groups like those Bacchus mentioned seek to reform Middle Eastern culture to its former glory. The fundimentalists know this, and it pains them to no end. What's worse is that they can't stop it.

 

When a fish knows that they are about to die, they swim towards a predator and attacks that predator. The smaller fish knows death is inevitable and seeks the most painless way possible - a quick death by being eaten by a larger fish. Similarly, Al Queda seeks to attack virtually all the world's powers. They know that the fundimentalist sect of Islam is doomed beyond means to recover. Thus, they seek the most painless death they can get - a glorious but hopeless battle against all the world's powers put together.

 

If they hated the US, their targets would be US, US, and US. But, their targets were US, Spain, and Russia. They seek to provoke the world's powers one by one. To make the fight more and more hopeless so that they could recieve more and more glory.

[Vile Requiem]

Russia is trying to keep Chetchnya (however you spell it) from achieving it's independance somewhat illegally (by using Saddam like brutality), thus guess where their terrorists come from?

 

Al Queda said quite specifically the Madrid Train Bombings were a penalty for Spain being a member of the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq. Athough the old rulers were going to be voted out of at the very least a majority of the govt, the attacks helped (If I recall correctly, the Socialist party won).

 

IRA attacks in Britian/N Ireland are from Northern Ireland trying to achieve independance.

 

I know nothing of Aussie terrorism, so I won't comment.

 

Doing some research might be nice though.

[MasterDrake]

china is indeed the other super power in the world Russia will soon be out of the game due to its depleting lack of nuclear arms. The US is striding to help Russia sustain itself and keep terrorists out. As for the next country to take out the US I really think if it will be any it will be China have the biggest number of troops . If the time comes I believe that the citizens of our nation will ethier tuck their tail between their legs and run or stand and fight. I believe the good majority will stand and fight though we have great confidence in this country of outs we are proud of all the accomplishments we have made and continue to make.

 

I believe if the twin towers were never attacked we would not be in this conflict as for the comments about the US doing what it wants. We really do not need anyones approval to defend our country against attack foes.

[Aileron]

Al Queda does not represent the rebels in Chechnya. (The spelling differs with whichever language you are using. Suffice to say there is no correct spelling.) However, I have little doubt that one of you will find something on Russia.

 

Spain however is another matter. Al Queda doesn't really represent Iraq either. They attack out forces in Iraq strictly because it is convenient to do so, or out of enemy of an enemy. Islamic Fundimentalists and Baath party members have no idealogical common ground. (Also, by saying that you are admitting that there is a connection between Iraq and Al Queda.) Besides, anyone with any respect for Al Queda's cunning shouldn't trust a -*BAD WORD*- thing they say. Al Queda is too smart to tell the truth in the simple way, though they may tell the truth under the premise that we think they are lying.

 

There is no real terrorism against Great Britain or Australia from Al Queda. The point was such an attack does not seem all that unlikely. If such an attack were to occur, under Monte's and Bacchus' logic it would require that one of those two countries somehow oppressed Al Queda first. Both of those countries do a whole lot of nothing in the War on Terror, yet the possibility of Al Queda attacking them doesn't seem to be that much of a jaw-dropper.

[Guest Recombo]

quoting you bacchus you said:

 

Democracy can be imposed, war can make peace, american dream is good for everyone and gun control sucks.

 

Recombo also is right: I'm a foreign immigrant and i'm still a kid, therefore i'm anti-american.

 

---------------

 

I'm not sure where you came up with this but in response I suppose you should back your statements with adequate reason. If you are referring to the situation in Iraq then I believe you and many of these kids here should get some perspective on it. Many many new schools have been built so kids have a place to attain an education.

 

Many Soldiers and Marines participate with Iraqi's in daily recreational activity. This builds hope in Iraqi people that there is something to live for instead of fakey jihad. Stopping hopelessness is key to overcoming war.

 

On the issue of gun control, I agree - gun control does suck. There is no reason to control guns - they are simply one form of killing. When you have gun control you not only violate the right to bear arms, but you also create a black-market used by thugs to get their hands on a small arsenal of automatic weapons. I'm not saying everyone in America should go out today and buy a gun, but you cannot fight against crime by removing a single source of destruction. Look at Hawaii - it has the lowest crime rate in America - why? Because no one has guns? No. It's because the penalty imposed on Hawaiians prior to the date when it joined the USA was severe.

 

I'm not sure where you are going, nor care to, with your last comments.

[MonteZuma]

The old Middle Eastern nations were greater and more progressive than any current faction.

Not really. The middle east has stagnated for thousands of years.

 

...If terrorism springs from the US' own actions...

In the middle east this mainly relates to the US's unbalanced support for Israel.

 

what has Russia done to deserve their recent hijackings?  What did Spain do to deserve the train attacks a few months ago?  When they attack Great Britain or Australia, what then will you say your countries did to deserve those attacks?

Terrorists are evil and no country deserves to have a terrorist attack, but that does not mean that there are no explainable reasons why these things happen - and it doesn't mean that these attacks are unavoidable. Vile explained some of the reasons.

 

In effect there has already been an attack on GB and Australia. This occured in Bali. This is a little indulgent, but the death toll in Bali:

 

88 Australians

23 Britons

9 Swedes

7 Americans

6 Germans

4 Dutch

3 Danes

3 New Zealanders

3 French

2 South Africans

2 Japanese

2 South Koreans

2 Brazillians

1 Singaporean

1 Taiwanese

1 Italian

1 Portuguese

1 Ecuadorian

1 Pole

1 Canadian

38 Indonesian

 

There was some initial concern in Australia that this was an attack against Australians, but the bombers made it clear they they targetted the west in general. They hated the west. What we need to try to do is stop generating hate.

 

Terrorists are like a dying fish.  The fundimentalist section of their culture is dying and is going to be replaced by a better more progressive version of their culture. 

What evidence do you have for that? Martyrdom isn't exactly a new phenomenon in the middle east.

 

When a fish knows that they are about to die, they swim towards a predator and attacks that predator.  The smaller fish knows death is inevitable and seeks the most painless way possible - a quick death by being eaten by a larger fish. 

Where did you pull this from? BS.

 

They know that the fundimentalist sect of Islam is doomed beyond means to recover. 

They know no such thing. If they had a mission statement I think it would say the exact opposite. Al Qaeda wants to establish a theocracy in the Middle East and they haven't given up. That means that I agree with some of what you said about these terrorists being right wing. But I think their quarrell with the west stems from self-serving western involvement and intervention in middle eastern affairs. Much of the lack of sensitivity towards different cultures arises from right wing policies. That is true whether we are talking about Islamo-fascists (nice word huh?) in the middle east or far right christian conservatives in the US. Both groups are well known for intolerance. We are better off without them.

 

The irony of this whole thing is that Iraq was a relatively moderate society (unlike Saudi Arabia and Iran for example). In future, when the US finally pulls out of Iraq, Iraq may eventually become a theocracy. Bin Laden and Al Qaida might just win this battle yet.

[MonteZuma]

Islamic Fundimentalists and Baath party members have no idealogical common ground. 

Their common ground is Islam and hatred for the west. Beyond that I agree. This is another reason why attacking Iraq does little to advance the war on terror. To fight terror we need to look elsewhere.

 

There is no real terrorism against Great Britain or Australia from Al Queda. 

I think that the Bali statistics show a different story. People linked to Al Qaida have been found with maps of an Australian nuclear reactor and footage of the Australian emb!@#$%^&*y in Singapore. Australia is on Al Qaida's hit list. Both Australia and GB have been mentioned as targets in recorded statements purported to be made by Bin Laden.

 

under Monte's and Bacchus' logic it would require that one of those two countries somehow oppressed Al Queda first. 

In their eyes, everyone in the west is an oppressor. Especially those who support US policies.

Both of those countries do a whole lot of nothing in the War on Terror, yet the possibility of Al Queda attacking them doesn't seem to be that much of a jaw-dropper.

Are you serious? You think GB has done a whole lot of nothing in the war on terror? Aside from the huge military commitment that GB made, Tony Blair was in front of the cameras every days supporting GWB and the war. Australia made the third biggest military commitment. This was huge considering the size of Australia's economy and military. Both of those countries have laid it on the line more than any others - except the US. The fact that the US is still the primary target probably reflects the fact that the US is much more right wing and interventionist than GB and Australia. I don't think Al Qaida give a -*BAD WORD*- about the Baath party or Saddam. I think they just hate western involvement and intervention in muslim affairs.

[Guest Recombo]

Actually Italy is the third largest contingent in Iraq.

[MonteZuma]

Actually Italy is the third largest contingent in Iraq.

At the moment yes, but the invasion forces included 2000 Australian troops, including 3 warships, 150 special forces troops, Orion surveilance and Hercules transport planes, and 14 F/A-18 Hornets. Italy did not contribute any forces to the invasion.

[Aileron]

Middle Eastern culture has not been stagnant for thousands of years, merely hundreds of years. Regardless, it was that time long ago before that stagnation that I was referring to.

 

Both of us need to sort out our arguements. I think both of us have argued for the other person's side atleast one point in our last two posts.

 

But, that settles it. Al Queda hates the west in general. Most likely they target western nations based on pure strength. This is mostly because of cultural compe!@#$%^&*ion. Their culture cannot compete with our culture.

 

This is not our fault nor can it be helped. Cultures are man-made apparatuses that are built to serve us, just like any tool you can name. Just like all tools, they sometimes become out of date. This is not the fault of the inventor or the implimentor of new technology, but rather is a fact of life that one must get over.

 

The Warlord system is a clearly outdated culture. At one time, it had its purpose, but is now giving way to the stronger and more efficient democratic system. This is not the west's fault - it is a fact of life that would happen no matter what we do. Staying out of the cultural revolution was the best option, until fundimentalists started blaming us for the cultural revolution and acting on those emotions.

 

They dragged us into this fight, and we have two options: drag ourselves out of it or finish it. Since Islamic Fundimentalism's fall is inevitable, inducing its fall is the easier and better option.

 

This doesn't explain Iraq. I never considered Iraq to be a true part of the War on Terror. Still, there are two important things going into Iraq did. The first was to eliminate the notion that switching to a democracy was to become Iraq like. Hussein regime was technically a democracy, and fundimentalists could point to Iraq and say "this is what a democracy looks like."

 

The second is to provide a base of political support in the region. The key here is to think over the long term. In time, Iraq will become a Muslim oriented democracy. Then, they can impliment democracy in the Middle East for us, because they will have the cultural background to know what works there.

[Bacchus]

Their culture cannot compete with our culture.

 

This is not our fault nor can it be helped. Cultures are man-made apparatuses that are built to serve us, just like any tool you can name. Just like all tools, they sometimes become out of date. This is not the fault of the inventor or the implimentor of new technology, but rather is a fact of life that one must get over.

is it just me or you are implying that middle-east cultures are obsolete?

 

 

judging from the next paragraph, you do think a culture can be "obsolete"...

 

 

 

wow.

 

i can !@#$%^&*ure you that if you ever think my culture is obsolete i'll fight you with everything i have, from rocks to atom bombs.

 

 

 

They dragged us into this fight

 

so THEY dragge dyou into this fight but it's...how did you put it: a fact of life...no?

Hey it's natural. You rock so much they just oughta bow down and assume they are outdated then they should thank you and if they're cute enough you'll hand a job...MAN, IT'S ALL MAKING SENSE ALLE_-*BAD WORD*-ING_LUJAH!!

 

This is not the west's fault - it is a fact of life that would happen no matter what we do

 

Oh, that's the Darwin argument! the grand evolution of all thing natural and off --*BAD WORD*-ing- course USA is the pinacle of human history!

What next? islam is an evolutionnary stress that will push americans to new states of being?

 

c'mon...

 

The rest is utter -*BAD WORD*-, you're speaking out of your -*BAD WORD*- so much I wouldn't even be surprised if you had 2 of them.

[Guest Recombo]

As crazy as it sounds, Islamic extremists are making a mockery of the religion. This is just like the Crusades in the dark ages. Christians wanted everyone to think and believe as they did, and therefore wiped out millions on behalf of it.

 

Is it right? Doubtful. When a religion turns to violence, it eventually fails, and leaves the innocent to face the brutal heartache of what has transpired.

 

In light of today, it has been repeated by many senators, congressmen, and generals that if the United States was attacked again, they will pretty much unleash -*BAD WORD*-.

 

On that note, watch what the Russians will do to Chechnya after this third day of mourning is over. They aren't going to ask questions - they are simply going to wipe out a small civilization in retaliation.

[Dr.Worthless]

so THEY dragge dyou into this fight but it's...how did you put it:  a fact of life...no?

Hey it's natural. You rock so much they just oughta bow down and assume they are outdated then they should thank you and if they're cute enough you'll hand a job...MAN, IT'S ALL MAKING SENSE ALLE_-*BAD WORD*-ING_LUJAH!!

 

Basically what bacchus is saying is that it's the US's fault that 9/11 happened. We caused the terrorists to attack us so we should just let them kill our citizens, we deserve it.

 

Sorry bacchus, aint ever gonna happen. Deserve it or not, if there is an attack on US soil, the US will retaliate. Right or Wrong. Mabye we're just not as understanding of other cultures as you, or the french, or europe as a whole is. But if that culture consists of killing Americans, that culture isn't going to exist anymore.

 

And please don't go into the blah blah blah typical american blah blah blah. If defending our own countries citizens is wrong, go ahead and lock me up, because that opinion is never gonna change.

[MasterDrake]

woot Go DW that anwsers it wonderfully ^_^ -*BAD WORD*- with us and you die now

[Aileron]

He's right, the primary purpose of government is to protect their citizens from death to foreign groups. This comes before any duty to the world community.

 

 

And, cultures are considered if and only if they survive over time, according to most anthropological trains of thought. A culture that cannot survive over the time it exists in is a failure.

 

The "culture destroying another culture" model you use so often is impossible. Suppose by some event culture A is impossed on culture B. If culture B is more efficient than culture A in the time and place the event occurs, culture A will not be able to "stick." Culture A would quickly die out there and culture B would resume. If culture A is in fact able to "stick", it is because it is more efficient than culture B in that time and place. If culture B cannot survive on its own home turf, it has no business existing.

 

There are a few more possibilities. Culture B could be infact weaker than culture A, but instead modifies itself into B', and Culture B' expells A. Also, there is the possibilty that Culture be takes elements of A, forming culture Ba. Either way though, people decide which culture they want to follow. Whether it is A, B, B', or Ba, it is the natives themselves. An occupying force can place a facade up to cover a native culture, but that facade will never be real without native approval.

 

All these are natural processes, though not all view them as natural processes. Al Queda does not view it as a natural process, because to do so would be to admit their own culture's weakness.

 

The US counterattack on the Middle East is a clear attept to set up a B' or Ba. We want a group of Muslim Democracies.

[Yupa]

V-A-G-I-N-A

[Aileron]

Insightfull as always, Suse.