A sad day for 17th

[reload]

'17th Parallel: Fast-paced action. Fight for enemy territory while protecting your own'

 

ROFL, RIGHT!

 

Can anyone please change the zone's description? I'll tell you why.

 

Wednesday, 24th of August, 2004

 

I enter 17th, noticing the new bounty things. Because I was really bored, I started playing pub. After a few minutes, I notice that at least half of the players (there were about 40 players) was just running around, greening so their bounty could get higher. I spot a warbird and fly towards him. I fire a couple of bullets, so he warps (don't worry, I won't use names, Acid). I think I flew around for about 2 more minutes, then specced because I got bored. Fast-paced action? RIGHT!

 

Friday, 27th of August, 2004

 

I got a bit bored of NFS Hot Pursuit 2, so I launch SS. I enter 17th Parallel and have to download a map. Sigh, yet another map change. But why? Why do you still keep changing the map? Are you guys so bored that you need to build maps to put up 1 day and then let it fade away? What is the point of this? You never use a single map that you put up. You just run some stupid poll that says 'do you like the new map' and then completely ignore the poll result. Or are the results so negative that everyone says 'No, we don't?'.

 

Anyway, the donwload ends, and I enter in Javelin. 20 players in the zone, only 6 playing. I fly around, looking for enemies. Ah, there goes Raem. I chase him, fire bullets at him. He runs away, greening and greening and greening, until he warps away. Rofl, you have got to be kidding me. I asked myself 'So this is the new 17th?' I really don't hope so, because otherwise, it's just sad. Before the 'attempt' to attract more players by completely ruining the zone settings, 17th was cool. Everyone had fun in 17th. Javs were hunting down Lancasters, Warbirds were turreting with Levi's, Terriers were chasing the weasels, and the weasels were killing the Javs, if not killed by the Spiders or Sharks first. Look at 17th now: players crying that the Jav is overpowered, A Leviathan with a portal, the Weasel that is nothing but annoying, players running around, greening and warping.

 

I have played 17th for over 3,5 years, and have always loved this zone. The leagues were cool and the settings were cool. But now, after 3,5 years, I have lost interest in this zone. If this doesn't change, I'm gonna quit this zone when TT-League ends. 17th was a cool zone, but it is completely -*BAD WORD*-ed up by Upper Staff.

[Delic]

Wow, well said! Unexpected.

 

This is just the result of a combination between awful shipsetts and another of Vile's ideas to "save pub".

 

Well.. as I said in my thread, pub's been messed up for a long time, it lost all the action and sense that it used to have back when we were pub nubs.

They threw in a bunch of random elements to the game to try to make it more 'exciting' probably, but without actually thinking about the consequences.

 

So this is what we have today.

[Rifleman]

Cool.

 

Then quit.

 

-Rifle

[Delic]

Wow, why are you, a respected veteran and staff member of this community treating old school players like that when all they're doing is telling you why they can't play their home zone anymore?

 

Just "quit"?

 

Look, unlike your upper staff, we were actual players of this zone, we give a shït.

 

So no, I'm not going to quit just because some people messed up my zone.

 

I know you're tired of hearing this endless whining, but if you actually listened to us and did something about it, CHANCES ARE it will stop?

 

Stop bïtching about our bïtching when you don't even care about what we're bïtching about, bïtch!

[Rifleman]

Look, unlike your upper staff, we were actual players of this zone, we give a shït.

 

I know you're tired of hearing this endless whining, but if you actually listened to us and did something about it, CHANCES ARE it will stop?

Upper staff cares for the zone.

If we didn`t, we would remain status quo for pub settings.

Luckily, we`ve seen that most of the players want :

 

1) Map changed

2) Settings changed

 

 

1.a ) I thought everyone knew about this by now. Apparently not.

We test maps each friday.

Most maps reach about 30-40% "I like it", while a minority reach 60-70% "I like it".

Hopefully one of those maps will be accepted enough to have a chance at becoming the new pub map.

Yes - We do polls about them. Would you rather have it like the old times where maps were served every other day, hoping players would like it?

 

2.a ) Fact is - change settings either back or develop them will only get you lynched by pub or discouraged by the zone owner.

I`ve seen way too many good names being dragged through the dirt while

improving pub as sysops.

I`ve seen them being backstabbed by the very players they sought to help, and it makes me sick to the bone.

 

Thus, I`ve found the following conclusions :

1.b ) Settings must be changed little by little - if the sysop is going to have any chance of actually changing them.

2.b ) Sysops should not take pub criticism too seriously, as pub players are very divided in their opinions, and way too biased when it comes to being "new" or "vet".

 

As for "the good old times" - Yes, the past always look golden when you`re older.

For me, "the good old times" was 5-6 years ago in TW. However, while rewieving logs I`ve made back then, I only discovered those times were not so different than now.

Among the other logs, I found some old ones for 17th as well.

Guess what I found? "Change the weasel!", "Remove terr mines!", "Spider is useless on this map!".

Old times were just as scarred as these times.

Looking back at "old times" as "good times" is just a side effect from growing older.

 

 

Delic - Old settings will never happen because of 2.a, such a radical change would never be accepted by the majority of the players.

 

Reload - Attempting to please 100% of the playerbase is impossible.

If you are not pleased with the settings - I`m sorry, but we have to think of the majority.

 

 

Utopia is not possible in this world, same goes for Continuum.

 

 

-Rifle

[pACMANx]

Slow and steady or fast and sweeping...

 

 

Slow pub change caveats:

1. Small constant changes cause people to constantly re-adapt every day

2. Nobody is sure what it is building to

3. New players may not be able to get a sense of what 17th is with everything changing.

 

Slow change advantages:

1. Each change can be evaluated on it's own. A broad overall change makes the individual changes difficult to evaluate.

2. Regs have a chance to get used to 17th changing without too much shock.

3. Ongoing change process lends itself to healthy discussion about the future of the zone (though I'm not sure if that holds true to SOME of us... heh)

 

Sweeping overhaul caveats:

1. Regs have to completely relearn everything (unless we go back to old settings)

2. No advantage to being a zone vet

3. If it doesn't work out, harder to pinpoint what specifically went wrong because EVERYTHING changed.

 

Sweeping overhaul advantages:

1. Re-invigorate an aging zone with excitement of completely new zone + settings

2. Chance to correct everything quickly without spending months slowly tweaking

3. (temporarily) evens the playing field between new players and vets

 

There are others, but those are some of the main issues IMHO. Personally, I prefer a quick sweeping change that is done with a lot of thought and consideration. Then stick with it.

 

-=pax=-

[Vile Requiem]

Yes...heh...the attempt to "attract more people" by changing the settings.

 

When Perni's the only one in the zone at noon EST, ya, more people are sorta needed.

[Telson]

you cant make everyone happy, Upperstaff has always gone with the majority of the players.. and i see rifle just said that....

 

rifle is 100% correct

 

I PLAY this zone and i am a sysop.. so dont give me any -*BAD WORD*- about not knowing what people want. Yes some want the old ways.. some dont.. Just so happens more people like the new more than the old and thats the way it stays.

 

this topic will never go away... if we change back to the old sets.. people will want the "newer" sets back and the roles will be reversed... live with it.. move on or dont.. thats your choice not mine.

[Delic]

Upper staff cares for the zone.

 

I'm sure you "care for the zone" (as you so caringly showed in your first post) what I meant with "unlike your upper staff" was that we were actual players' date=' unlike most of Upper Staff who can't really be considered players.

 

Among the other logs, I found some old ones for 17th as well.

Guess what I found? "Change the weasel!", "Remove terr mines!", "Spider is useless on this map!".

Old times were just as scarred as these times.

Looking back at "old times" as "good times" is just a side effect from growing older.

 

Of course there were always whiners, I'm aware of that, they will always be here no matter what you do.

But there's a difference between simple whiners and people who complain and explain why they are complaining.

And I know what you're talking about about the old times being remembered as good times no matter what, but that really doesn't have anything to do with this, I just want a 17th that makes sense, as I showed in my pub thread, it doesn't right now.

 

Delic - Old settings will never happen because of 2.a' date=' such a radical change would never be accepted by the majority of the players.[/quote']

 

Rifleman, the current settings were never accepted by the majority of the players when they were put in here either, yet I still see them here.

I understand that there are differences in who's in power to make those changes now and that they wouldn't make such radical changes again because they're afraid that what happened to Zeke will happen to them, but my point is that you can really do basically whatever you want and people would still be in this zone weather some accept the changes or not, as the past has shown.

 

But I believe that players would enjoy 17th much more with the old settings (not just ships as I explained in my pub thread) and eventually accept them since they would have little to complain about and every change comes with an explanation, unlike the current setts.

 

So there's a difference. I think that if old setts will never happen it'll only be because staff can't admit that the past.. 2(?) years of tweaking hasn't improved the gameplay one bit.

[Delic]

you cant make everyone happy' date=' Upperstaff has always gone with the majority of the players.. and i see rifle just said that....

 

rifle is 100% correct[/quote']

 

Wait, are you telling me that the majority of the players wanted these current setts when they were put there?

Don't be silly.

 

Yes some want the old ways.. some dont.. Just so happens more people like the new more than the old and thats the way it stays.

 

As Rifleman said' date=' and I completely agree with him on this point..

 

2.b ) Sysops should not take pub criticism too seriously' date=' as pub players are very divided in their opinions, and way too biased when it comes to being "new" or "vet".[/quote']

 

It's not really about what most people want, because most people don't know what they want (besides just making their favorite ship the best perhaps), it's about what you, upper staff present to the players and if they like it or not.

"Staff are the hosts, players are the guests" as the mod protocol edited by Rifleman says.

Unfortunately there are no competent people left on staff who really understand how a gameplay functions other than Vile.

They just don't see how maps, ships, greens and so on are connected and how those different factors make and affect a gameplay.

They can only look at it from one point of view rather than look at the entire picture.

Anyone who can do that will realize that the old shipsetts are best suited for this zone, and not just because it goes with the theme.

 

if we change back to the old sets.. people will want the "newer" sets back and the roles will be reversed

 

Maybe' date=' but in the long run it would be for the best of the zone to have a gameplay that makes sense and not just a bunch of random things thrown in.

 

http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showtopic=5468

[Tempest]

I'm sure you "care for the zone" (as you so caringly showed in your first post) what I meant with "unlike your upper staff" was that we were actual players, unlike most of Upper Staff who can't really be considered players.

 

Pff, I play more than you do! (probably)

[Delic]

I said "most" ;P

[Tempest]

D'oh.

[ddaL]

delic and reload make a very good point, the current zone pub is so boring, its unfunny, if you change the pub setts, it may piss SOME of the pub players off, but who cares, the people who want old setts, are angry, so it be very hard ti make every one happy, if you change pub setts to old, sdome players will be pissed and leave, most will stay, will make "vets" happy, will bring in new players, who like setts like the old ones, also it will probaly bring back some of the old players back.

 

my debateing skills arnt as good as delics but, bring old setts back, will piss some people of, and it make some people happy.

 

- ladd

[Vile Requiem]

I still like the idea of Heidi Klumbot. All we need is some pervert (MMaverick) to work about 10 hours a day writing preprogrammed responses to queries like !sex or !tickle, and we'd have 200 pop before you know it.

[ddaL]

yea sad nerds love crap like that, but normal nerds, or people you are not creeps, kinda like better game play, and crazy things like that

[Tempest]

No, I concur with Vile's suggestion.

[ddaL]

well, maybe it just me, i don't go play ss, to talk to a box, saying some comments when i type !sex to it

[Zetirix]

I understand that there are differences in who's in power to make those changes now and that they wouldn't make such radical changes again because they're afraid that what happened to Zeke will happen to them, but my point is that you can really do basically whatever you want and people would still be in this zone weather some accept the changes or not, as the past has shown.

And what happened to me? Stop tossing my name up As I thought, I never made "radical" changes either...

 

At least when I was tweaking pub set, there was a steady increase of populations (Thanks to Sever and his JWL, Vile's Dueling League, and some great now-ex-staffers, as well. ) You need to consider that school time is here again, too, and general pop usually drops until about end of Sept. (I think).

 

The only thing that happened to me was the fact that while I was attracting new players at expense of older ones, was the fact that older players already knew where else to find elements that they wanted here, that I didn't agree with at the time...

 

- Z

 

P.S. I thought it was against the 17th Mandate to emply "green-up" strategy to the zone... shame on you.

[CreatiX]

I dont want to interrupt your lil argument, but think rifle and all these "upper staffers" do the best they can to improve the gameplay fun. though this shows that they know that pub sucks a bit, not only because they have been staff for long but for coming into 17th seeing 19 ppl in spec and 6v6 playing (as it often is). -*BAD WORD*-ing wont make any changes but making suggestions how to make pub better. though due to i have experienced it too many times, i dont think either that helps, cuz actually, staff listens to -*BAD WORD*-ing to much.

[Zetirix]

Amen to that... I remember coming back from 6 months away from being a mod... it was in January I think... and the zone had 17 peeps... 6 in pub, 1 flying around... Upper staff has always been concered with the welfare of pub, it's just none really formed a strong concensus on how to remedy it.

 

- Z

[reload]

Wow, well said! Unexpected.

 

This is just the result of a combination between awful shipsetts and another of Vile's ideas to "save pub".

 

Well.. as I said in my thread, pub's been messed up for a long time, it lost all the action and sense that it used to have back when we were pub nubs.

They threw in a bunch of random elements to the game to try to make it more 'exciting' probably, but without actually thinking about the consequences.

 

So this is what we have today.

Amen.

 

I notice this in a lot of other games, too. For example The Getaway and Dead To Rights. 'Oh look, this and that is what the players want, so we'll add that.' A month or so later it's the same again 'Oh look, they want this and that too, why don't we just use that, too?' Same goes for 17th. You get tons of different things, but it doesn't work properly. You put a little bit of everything in it, so you can't really work everything out so it works fine. Think of that, the next time that you will change something again (which will probably be very soon).

 

Cool.

 

Then quit.

 

-Rifle

 

Very mature reply. As Maka said' date=' if you actually listen to what we have to say, you'll get a lot less of such topics.

 

Yes...heh...the attempt to "attract more people" by changing the settings.

 

When Perni's the only one in the zone at noon EST, ya, more people are sorta needed.

 

You don't get these extra players by changing settings. It's more likely to lose players that way. You never talk about the settings. You never ask players what they want. No, you just change it without thinking, quite often without much success. Remember, 17th has to compete with zones like Trench Wars and Death Star Battle, both good zones with A LOT of European players (the ones usually playing at noon EST).

 

I PLAY this zone and i am a sysop.. so dont give me any -*BAD WORD*- about not knowing what people want.

 

I know Telson' date=' but you're one of few, if not, the only one.

 

I dont want to interrupt your lil argument' date=' but think rifle and all these "upper staffers" do the best they can to improve the gameplay fun.[/quote']

 

Oh, really? Please, name 1 change to Pub that has worked out positively on the gameplay fun.

 

Upper staff has always been concered with the welfare of pub' date=' it's just none really formed a strong concensus on how to remedy it.[/quote']

 

Wow Zeke, probably for the first time ever, I actually agree with you. The SysOps don't listen to what the players have to say, and that is why they don't have a remedy yet.

[Zetirix]

That was about 60% of the reason why I left.

 

- Z

[Vile Requiem]

You don't get these extra players by changing settings. It's more likely to lose players that way. You never talk about the settings. You never ask players what they want. No' date=' you just change it without thinking, quite often without much success. Remember, 17th has to compete with zones like Trench Wars and Death Star Battle, both good zones with A LOT of European players (the ones usually playing at noon EST).[/quote']

 

Hi, I don't bother to check out the other thread on this forum that would prove me wrong

 

http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showtopic=4778

 

What I see there is 11-2 YES.

 

And let's look at the change which spawned this thread:

 

http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showtopic=5452

 

What I see there is 7-2 YES.

 

YOU LOSE! YOU WIN NOTHING! GOOD DAY SIR!

[Aileron]

I say, change everything radically. With the rate I go through zones, I'll be able to pick up the new setts immeadiatley and own all of you for the first month.