This Friday's map (August 20th)

[Samapico]

Some comments on this Friday's map...

 

First of all, was there anything changed since last friday on that map? It doesn't seem so, and there was tons of good suggestions in one thread...

 

So take a look at the picture and read my suggestions and give constructive comments...

 

Green: current tubes bombs trajectory

Purple: current paths to goal

Yellow: current spawn area

 

1- The tube bombing is almost useless ; look at the bombs path (green lines)... it doesn't interfere at all with the other team balling. The nearest goal path entrance (purple lines) is far from the rain of bombs... It's just useful to defend your teamates getting followed when they want to go tube the ball. The red squares show where I would put an entrance to the goal path ; either move the entrance, or add an alternative shortcut entrance there. Plus it would give a meaning to the light blue area.

 

2- If the entrance of that goal path is changed, the spawning area (yellow circle) could be a bit extended to the blue circles area... The minimized spawning area sure adds some fun and surprises while spawning, but after spawning we should have at least some place to run if we spawned between 8 hungry frenzy javs... The blue circles may not be included in the spawn area, but at least it should be part of the central area, maybe with some obstacles...

 

3- I noticed most of the walls are double-tiled to avoid wallp!@#$%^&*es... I think that wallp!@#$%^&*es should be encouraged as it is a part of teamplay ; If a team manages to score fast by using wallp!@#$%^&*es, it's because they are organized and play as a team, which should be rewarded. Of course there may be 'some' spots where a wallp!@#$%^&* would be just lame... but it can't be worse than a tubep!@#$%^&*...

 

That's pretty much all I wanted to say...

[kentbrockman]

1: there are too many dead ends. maybe it will be less annoying after playing for awhile... there should perhaps be some path to the scoring area if you go towards the tubes.

 

2: 17th is usually 4vs4. this game needs at least 8vs8.

 

its a great map, it really is. and maybe we need to use it for a couple weeks to see if the population will stay as 8vs8. i will miss the sitting cloaking spiders bursting at me though.

[AndurilFlameoftheWest]

Map = boring. You count to much on the fact that people will attach, when most wont really, and if you are balling, you are relying on the fact that someone is in a base, otherwise, your in for a long and boring ride. Its way too boxed in, if a claustrophobic person played this theyd be freaked out already. I sat in west for 10 minutes without any action, and it took 5 minutes to get there in levi. The x's are way to extraenous, i havent even used them, they dont even really play any purpose, i guess just to look cool on the map. -*BAD WORD*- my comma splices. I would have thought there would have been modifications made due to the comments the first time the map showed up, but i guess those were disregarded.

[GhettoSmurf]

hmm, this map really seemed to grow on me...i like it and the teamwork it seems to add.

 

but i got two problems. i think there are too many flags. you can get up to 30k, which leads to lots of bounce. well, i suppose that is kinda fun, but maybe drop a few or something...also, it takes a while to get into goal. this isn't bad as far as bringing in the ball, but it makes it kinda hard to flank...

 

but overall i like it. specially when the ball gets stuck in the tube and no one really realizes how to get it out

[kentbrockman]

i also gotta agree that it takes way too long to get into the base. now 1vs1 games will be even boringer.

[Telson]

I like the teamplay

I like 3 different ways of scoring

I like the general style of gameplay

 

the only problems ive had were dumb!@#$%^&*es not helping me p!@#$%^&* the ball around when i asked, which made the trip boring and hard to do when defending off the enemy. Maybe the map is too large, but with a stable 7v7 pop its great

 

we could get a 7v7 or even a 10v10 going on this map easily.. its just the matter of having more people play than spec.

[Kill9mm]

First to respond to Samapico:

 

1- The tube bombing is almost useless ; look at the bombs path (green lines)... it doesn't interfere at all with the other team balling. The nearest goal path entrance (purple lines) is far from the rain of bombs... It's just useful to defend your teamates getting followed when they want to go tube the ball. The red squares show where I would put an entrance to the goal path ; either move the entrance, or add an alternative shortcut entrance there. Plus it would give a meaning to the light blue area.

The tube bombs arent supposed to reach center. This would make it absolutely insane to spawn if I took out the blockades! In the pub map bombs are blocked as well.

 

Putting an entrance to the goal in the tube area doesn't work for this map - it would be easier to take the shortest path as opposed to one of the equally lengthed paths.

 

The light blue area is used as a way of defending wall passes and other enemies. As well it can be used to feed the ball back into the tube area.

 

2- If the entrance of that goal path is changed, the spawning area (yellow circle) could be a bit extended to the blue circles area... The minimized spawning area sure adds some fun and surprises while spawning, but after spawning we should have at least some place to run if we spawned between 8 hungry frenzy javs... The blue circles may not be included in the spawn area, but at least it should be part of the central area, maybe with some obstacles...

 

You do have a place to go - you may attach to other players or go into one of the paths to the goal.

 

3- I noticed most of the walls are double-tiled to avoid wallp!@#$%^&*es... I think that wallp!@#$%^&*es should be encouraged as it is a part of teamplay ; If a team manages to score fast by using wallp!@#$%^&*es, it's because they are organized and play as a team, which should be rewarded. Of course there may be 'some' spots where a wallp!@#$%^&* would be just lame... but it can't be worse than a tubep!@#$%^&*...

This I'm unsure about. My first thoughts were to allow the wallp!@#$%^&*ing, but for a new map it would of been almost too much strategy at once. Maybe there could be set points where wallp!@#$%^&*ing could be encouraged in the paths to the goal. I agree with all your comments here.

 

And next is kentbrockman:

 

1: there are too many dead ends. maybe it will be less annoying after playing for awhile... there should perhaps be some path to the scoring area if you go towards the tubes.

 

You need to have someone anchored in your team's goal area. It makes it difficult to defend against enemies if this isn't the case, where some of the complaints have been. Regarding dead ends... I have yet to discover a "dead end". Will someone please explain to me what the -*BAD WORD*- they are talking about?

 

2: 17th is usually 4vs4. this game needs at least 8vs8.

 

The map was designed for the current pub player limits and privately tested with a minimum of 4v4, all was fun. As long as people play the ball game that is.

 

its a great map, it really is. and maybe we need to use it for a couple weeks to see if the population will stay as 8vs8. i will miss the sitting cloaking spiders bursting at me though.

[AndurilFlameoftheWest]

There is one catch which doesnt seem to be addressed, in fact overlooked. And i will say it again. I witnessed a game where the mapmaker was playing, and despite his frantic and angered demands, no one attached, which brings back to the point, not everyone wants to ball and you cannot force things upon people that they dont want to do in the first place. Reccing and Schooling a player is entertainment enough in some regards, so basically in simple, this map hinges on if people want to ball or not, which if you have 4v4 your still likely to have 1 or 2 not wanting to ball. Of course, with the close spawn radius, itll be very hard to rec. Not to mention the occasional newb which will either get in the way or have no idea in -*BAD WORD*- what they are doing, and with one look of the map say -*BAD WORD*- with it it looks to freaked up to me. Not a very open map either, all closed in with no open freedom, its provokes a non inviting atmosphere and tries to hard to be someting elaborate and grand. And yes, there are dead ends.

 

All in all, this furthers the potential yacking and complaining.

 

1. If no one balls, which quite a few dont care about, the ones who are trying too will -*BAD WORD*- at the other players *cough Kill9mm cough*.

2. If someone is trying to rec, they are incapable too because of the close radius and they are hoping that some who is balling, or anchoring is there or not. So there is the potential for -*BAD WORD*-ery.

3. If all are killed , anchors are killed, well its a long return journey back.

4. And wtf is with those x's??

[The Maurauder]

Yes, the main problems are:

1:There are many paths that lead nowhere. Most people call these dead ends.

2:The base layout (especially center) makes no sense at all.

3:Reaching goal takes too long since you cannot wallp!@#$%^&*.

4:Center is too small. This makes it impossible to fight, which many people enjoy.

 

It is a well made map, but the playability factor is low.

[Kill9mm]

I wish I could fire you Maur, you are the absolute most unintelligent person I know in Subspace. What you think you may know actually makes you look dumber, and that in itself makes you look even DUMBER (if there is such a thing).

 

Back to the topic at hand, when I was angry at noone attaching it was because the other team was completely owning at the ball game. Its that noone on the TEAM wanted to play ball, when the OTHER team was racking up all the points.

 

What I don't understand is, what does it matter if you are "playing ball"? I mean, you're FIGHTING either in SPAWN or going after the BALL. An objective makes it more FUN. Am I not following something here?

[GhettoSmurf]

i like the small spawn area. if it does discourage people from killing and reccing there, i think that would be good. they would either be forced to ball more, or go elsewhere. if they decide to help balling, the game would be more exciting with bigger matches. if they decide not to ball, they can go to rumble for fighting or to other events. this could increase event participation (which has always been a big weakpoint in 17th). this would also keep spawn killing to a minimum, which would add to the ball game, allowing people to attach faster and get back to the action.

 

as for "dead ends," the only ones i noticed are the light blue areas on sama's map. they don't lead directly to the goal room, but serve other purposes that i think most people don't realize. they are used to get the ball out of the tube w/o being forced to get a weasel, which can be extremely dangerous trying to get into the tube if enemies are around. they can also be used to lure enemies as you carry the ball, then p!@#$%^&* them out through a hole to a teamate, giving them an easier path to the goal

 

but i'm confused on the wall passing issue...is it really not possible to p!@#$%^&* through a double wall? or is that only for certain ships? cuz i seem to remember passing to someone in the goal room through a wall. and if you can't p!@#$%^&* through double walls, then i think i remember seeing a couple single wall areas, where you could p!@#$%^&* through.

[Kill9mm]

The double walls were designed to strictly not allow it, but the current pub settings do allow double wall passing IF you take the time to get it right.

[Greased_Lightning]

In response to the balling question... because some people DO like reccing and just killing, we should listen to THEM as well and not just focus on those who ONLY ball... if you don't, you're gonna lose a lot of veteran players.

 

You summed it up well that it is a fun map if everyone balls, well guess what? Not everyone balls...Get over it. Some people dont need a main obejctive to have fun. The simple fact that they killed someone makes them feel all warm and tingly. That is fun, too. People who don't give a rats -*BAD WORD*- about points arent going to ball if they have to spend more time taking a ball a long ways to a goal rather than get a quick kill. Not all people who enjoy killing like the events (i.e. me) and pub is a fun place to get in some killing for rec and get in on some of the nice banter between players.

 

Take the criticism not as a personal shot at you Kill, but as something to actually listen to and implement before next friday. I came in on friday, saw the same map and no changes and immediately went to spec. It just wasn't any fun the last time, except when Vile had the millions of points but that's an anomoly. Make some changes to the map and then see what kind of feedback you get.

 

One last thing, they are dead ends. Fix em' or lose em' please.

[ZKewl]

One last thing, they are dead ends.  Fix em' or lose em' please.

Yeah, what the zude says, and the others who say the same thing.

 

Otherwise I personally like the map. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to play during prime time when there is more players(playn ball)

 

zya

[Kill9mm]

There are no dead ends. Are you people re-*BAD WORD*-ed?

 

Regarding the killing only, the map is designed for that as a legitimate strategy to aid the ballers. However, BOTH sides need to be balling to some extent, not just one side racking up points.

[Kill9mm]

And I'm not getting mad at the suggestions, we NEED suggestions. What I get mad at is repe!@#$%^&*ive answers to the same re-*BAD WORD*-ed questions over and over again. Even when I answer them over and over and over. Like,

 

This map needs to lose the dead ends. There are no dead ends. Think about the purpose behind the map and LEARN it, don't just complain because YOU don't get it.

 

Make the center bigger. I did, twice.

 

Tons more. The other threads are proof of this. The feedback received had previously changed the map.

[Greased_Lightning]

You obviously don't get what we mean when we say dead ends. Areas in the map that don't go to the goalroom... as in they do not LEAD TO IT and ones that people are not going to use BECAUSE of that are DEAD ENDS. And you still don't get it that some people don't give a -*BAD WORD*- about balling and don't care if YOU think that reccing is just to aid balling, some DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BALL. Center, if you did make it bigger, it wasn't noticeable and needs to be enlarged again drastically.

 

Everyone knows how I feel about the map so I won't bother going over it again, but LISTEN to what EVERYONE is saying about dead ends instead of saying, "Wow you are a bunch of re-*BAD WORD*-s, this is a great map no matter what you say." Change the F'kin map to eliminate the dead ends (Yes, they are there!).

 

I AM getting mad about this because you seem to either not understand (no fault to you then) or you just don't care what players are saying. If it is the latter, then that's too bad. If it is the former, then here is my definition of a dead end: A path taken that goes no further from one point. In 17th, my definition is a path that goes somewhere and then stops without reaching any real destination. I tried playing this map for awhile (and yes I was balling too) and got so tired of how long it takes to get to bases without the front accesses that I didn't bother balling anymore. And this is when there WERE people balling.

 

Anyways, I am getting exasperated with this map and with this topic because it doesn't seem to be doing any good. I'll be back in a few weeks probably on a friday evening so I guess I'll see then if any changes were made. In summation, take the word of the people who have posted that those are dead ends and change them. Make further changes to the center size and then see how that works. People want this map to work, but it has to work for them to want it. (Oooh that was smooth)

[Naedhaha]

Yes, the main problems are:

1:There are many paths that lead nowhere. Most people call these dead ends.

2:The base layout (especially center) makes no sense at all.

3:Reaching goal takes too long since you cannot wallp!@#$%^&*.

4:Center is too small. This makes it impossible to fight, which many people enjoy.

 

It is a well made map, but the playability factor is low.

You really are an idiot...

[SeVeR]

i haven't got time to read everyones views so i'll just post what i think and if you've already said it then so be it.

 

1. Firstly the map was more fun as there were more places to go.

2. The tubing area was silly and the tunnels around it dead ends and pointless because from those you're not defending anything except your path into those tunnels and a big open space.

3. Also the tubes didn't cover any area of importance.

4. The smaller, less muddled center area was much better because it focussed the game more on baseplay.

5. I really liked the long back entrances to the bases. Keep those on an improved version.

6. Longer goal-routes and larger bases are a good thing because then it won't get boring like the current map has.

 

Overall i liked the map and the size of the centre space but voted no because of the tubing areas.

 

-EDIT- reading the last post.. maur you are an idiot. nothing personal.

[Kill9mm]

You obviously don't get what we mean when we say dead ends.  Areas in the map that don't go to the goalroom... as in they do not LEAD TO IT and ones that people are not going to use BECAUSE of that are DEAD ENDS.  And you still don't get it that some people don't give a -*BAD WORD*- about balling and don't care if YOU think that reccing is just to aid balling, some DON'T CARE ABOUT THE BALL.  Center, if you did make it bigger, it wasn't noticeable and needs to be enlarged again drastically.

 

Everyone knows how I feel about the map so I won't bother going over it again, but LISTEN to what EVERYONE is saying about dead ends instead of saying, "Wow you are a bunch of re-*BAD WORD*-s, this is a great map no matter what you say."  Change the F'kin map to eliminate the dead ends (Yes, they are there!). 

 

I AM getting mad about this because you seem to either not understand (no fault to you then) or you just don't care what players are saying.  If it is the latter, then that's too bad.  If it is the former, then here is my definition of a dead end:  A path taken that goes no further from one point.  In 17th, my definition is a path that goes somewhere and then stops without reaching any real destination.  I tried playing this map for awhile (and yes I was balling too) and got so tired of how long it takes to get to bases without the front accesses that I didn't bother balling anymore.  And this is when there WERE people balling. 

 

Anyways, I am getting exasperated with this map and with this topic because it doesn't seem to be doing any good.  I'll be back in a few weeks probably on a friday evening so I guess I'll see then if any changes were made.  In summation, take the word of the people who have posted that those are dead ends and change them.  Make further changes to the center size and then see how that works.  People want this map to work, but it has to work for them to want it. (Oooh that was smooth)

Dead Ends... you must be talking about the center path. Obviously the purpose of the center path is to wall p!@#$%^&* or tube pass

 

The length to the goal... thats why there's a key named F7, its called "attaching".

[Greased_Lightning]

Kinda hard to attach to a weasel or when theres an antiwarp in the very small center area

 

And yeah i like the access around the perimeter

[Kill9mm]

Bleh.

[AndurilFlameoftheWest]

yeh the only real thing i like about it is the path surrounding the arena, and the circles at the beginning of east and west base, its kinda like a little fort. But other that that, boring.

[La Muerta Rosa]

The bases and all that dont matter much to me, i never play soccer anyway.

 

I really cannot handle how small the open area in the center is though, not enough room to run around.

 

If you made the map as tall as it is wide, and took the current pub center and placed it into the new maps center, i would be happy.

 

I like the way on the current pub there is a complex middle area made of of small obstacles, they way the obstacles are situtated makes the map really "flow" nicely.

 

The new map is way to angular and forced, and like someone else said, there are too many dead ends and "pockets" to get trapped in.

 

Long tubes that lead directly off the middle is not something i really care for either.

 

 

The one thing i do like about the new map, is that the flags are in the bases, and not off in some third base that hardly anyone ever goes to.

[La Muerta Rosa]

And because there is some confusion over what a dead end is, take a look at the thumbnail picture at the top of this thread

 

the areas that are highlighted blue = DEAD ENDS (there is only 1 way in or out)

 

and the areas that are circled in blue are POCKETS (these limit the "flow" of the center for people who dont care about balling and just want to fly around and fight)