UN orders Israel to tear down wall.

[»nintendo64]

You know what's funny Dr. Worthless, that the USA just went to WW2, beause they were forced to... before that the US gave army supplies to Nazi Germany, England and other countries, do you think those supplies were free?

 

You have to admit your country is one of the most imperialistic out there. Also i don't believe the USA is the only problem, but it's becoming the main advocate for War.

 

Well, i don't want this to become a USA bashing, but most threads with USA role in Israel and Iraq or the whole War on Terrorism (are there any concepts left to declare war to?) do bring up the discomfort people from other countries feel, when the USA acts like it usually does. It is like that guy in the office that keeps insisting on making things his way, and never lets people discuss how it should be properly done, then, when he finishes, it ends up a failure, and then starts asking for help or tries to disguise it as a success.

 

-nintendo64

[»nintendo64]

Funny that you still don't acknowledge what the United States has done. Coincidental? I think not.

 

I've not experienced other economic systems besides capitalism or another form of goverment besides representative democracy, but one thing is certain, i cannot complain about the opportunities people can get living in this systems, of course, if they know how to play them. You can come from whatever city, and you can still make it big (talking about cash), and or experience social services if you are disabled. I, personally, don't believe in the current system, but it's working... i'd rather see more socialism put into the system, but it's working... i cannot complain, but am i not one of the people in the street asking for food, what will they say? do they like social services, because they cannot work? or maybe they want to experience how poor people do in my country? (third world perspective).

 

 

-nintendo64

[Dr.Worthless]

You have to admit your country is one of the most imperialistic out there. Also i don't believe the USA is the only problem, but it's becoming the main advocate for War.

I wouldn't so no to that statement.

 

 

 

 

Funny that you still don't acknowledge what the United States has done. Coincidental? I think not.

 

I was refering to my above post speaking of the United States roll in european affairs over the past 70 years. All i've been hearing on these forums is how the US deserves no respect because they invaded Iraq, and how they've lost everyones respect. If the US didn't earn enough respect during WW2 from europe,and the cold war, then they will never have enough respect.

[MonteZuma]

Dr Worthless wrote crap like this:

 

we dug your european !@#$%^&*es out of world war 2 by ourselves

 

we defeated Japan by ourselves

 

we rebuilt wartorn europe by ourselves

 

we won the cold war by ourselves

 

we sure as -*BAD WORD*- can handle Iraq by ourselves

...being in a debating compe!@#$%^&*ion with you is like being flogged with warm lettuce...

 

It gets a little boring after a while. You keep introducing new arguments with more faults and incorrect and unsupported !@#$%^&*umptions than before. Responding to them is easy but tedious.

 

My response: The US did some great things in WW2 and made Europe and parts of Asia a better and safer place. What the US has done since is make the whole -*BAD WORD*-ed world more dangerous. That point has been demonstrated ad infinitum.

 

By the way. Your contribution to WW2 amounts to zero. The way you say that 'we did this' and 'we did that' is ludicrous. You are some loser sitting a keyboard typing out political debate in a gamer forum just like the rest of us. You aren't a WW2 hero. You're a loser with Internet access and an insult to anybody from any country that really has pulled their finger out and put their life on the line for someone elses freedom.

 

Wake up. You're dreaming.

[MasterDrake]

You know what's funny Dr. Worthless, that the USA just went to WW2, beause they were forced to... before that the US gave army supplies to Nazi Germany, England and other countries, do you think those supplies were free?

 

You have to admit your country is one of the most imperialistic out there. Also i don't believe the USA is the only problem, but it's becoming the main advocate for War.

 

Well, i don't want this to become a USA bashing, but most threads with USA role in Israel and Iraq or the whole War on Terrorism (are there any concepts left to declare war to?) do bring up the discomfort people from other countries feel, when the USA acts like it usually does. It is like that guy in the office that keeps insisting on making things his way, and never lets people discuss how it should be properly done, then, when he finishes, it ends up a failure, and then starts asking for help or tries to disguise it as a success.

 

-nintendo64

actually nintendo we actually only supplied to the allys if you noticed our merchants ships were sunk by the germans for doing it, which was one of the factors of why we came into the war ^_^

 

And a little humor

...being in a debating compe!@#$%^&*ion with you is like being flogged with warm lettuce...

I like warm lettuce

[Dr.Worthless]

By the way. Your contribution to WW2 amounts to zero. The way you say that 'we did this' and 'we did that' is ludicrous. You are some loser sitting a keyboard typing out political debate in a gamer forum just like the rest of us. You aren't a WW2 hero. You're a loser with Internet access and an insult to anybody from any country that really has pulled their finger out and put their life on the line for someone elses freedom.

 

And you're a loser for taking the minute out of your life to type that. Thx for clearing that up for me internet superhero, a big problem of mine is confusing what I've accomplished in my life.

 

 

 

 

<3

[Aileron]

hmmm....I'm gonna need a bigger getwithit stick

 

*grabs a telephone pole and smacks everyone in one big cleaving blow*

 

Look, WW2 is HISTORY. Both the US and Europe were different back then.

 

(and FYI, the US could have easily stayed out of it, the Atlantic ocean is a barrier worse than the Swiss Alps. We also could have been like Italy and taken the Nazi side.)

 

The point is that you guys are our allies. You should be turning a blind eye to the bad things we do and stop turning a blind eye to the bad things our mutual enemies do. Thats what allies are supposed to do, be politically supportive of one another.

 

This obviously shouldn't be absolute, so don't bother posting a reply saying as such.

 

The point is, when we kill a few thousand, and Hussein kills a few million, our allies should be pointing out the millions Hussein killed. That much should be expected if the casualty figures were even, and the casualty figures are not even - Hussein was ten times worse than we are!

 

No, the outcry is about the US going agaist the opinion of her allies. Note that we did not IGNORE that opinion - we merely dissagred with it. First off, we had a clear right to do so - its our military. Secondly, we were certainly capable of doing so without our allies. The US is a superpower - Iraq was a third world country. We already had a overwelming advantage, and even today our European allies can only offer what we already have - conventional Cold-War era military.

 

 

 

Look, Bush did all he could to be nice to your countries - remember he persuaded both the UK and Australia to help us out. Bush did everything he could, it was the British and Australian media, which dissagreeing with that decision, decided to use their great -*BAD WORD*- producing machines to attack the war, and pulled public opinion out from under your governments.

[MasterDrake]

1. I will wear helment next time

2. Poor russia the only thing keeping them safe is there nuclear missiles which are getting to old to operate -*BAD WORD*- russia come back I liked u ;_;

3. Aileron is right as she always is

4. Cake anyone ^_^

[Greased_Lightning]

Wow I just read this posting and it has come a long way from Israel. A major problem here in the US is a historical feeling of guilt for the Holocaust. The guilt that we didn't do enough to stop it sooner. Today that has manifested itself into a big time fear of being called an anti-Semite. There is the feeling that if you disagree with policy regarding Israel then the Jewish community here will eviscerate you for being a Nazi. So when the US supports Israel, it's not necessarily support, it's fear to NOT support.

 

My opinion about Israel: US should put up a trade embargo (at the very least stop sending them military aid) until they push through some real moves to end this PEACEFULLY. That does not include building a wall. I feel that if Palestinians want their own state, give it to them. If not total sovereignty, then at least an equal say in the gov't. Declare Jerusalem an open city for all religions, not just Judaism or just Islam. What Israelis and Palestinians really need is a common goal... or short of that a common enemy. Either way it could help bring them together. As to what goal other than peace, I have no idea how to make it work. For a common enemy, how about Mars?

 

One last thing about the situation there is that when people have jobs, are making a decent living, can provide for their families and see their children grow up happy and safe from fear, those people won't going out and use an RPG on a school bus. What they need over there is more employment. I'm not talking ditch-digging demeaning employment, but meaningful work. There are plenty of qualified people over there on both sides. One of the worst stereotypes is that people from the Middle East are not educated. That's not true, it's just that some are educated in the wrong ways (i.e. how to make your backpack a bomb).

 

To put this in perspective, USSR fell less than 2 decades ago...World War two was only 60 years ago. In the past generation there has been a lot of advancement and alot of progress. There have also been a lot of disappointments. Hopefully in the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years the world will get it's act together. I just hope it doesn't take a WWIII to finally get everybody thinking, "Hey, this is -*BAD WORD*-."

 

As for the US / Iraq thing... I'm not even going to go into that. There is no side that is all right or all wrong. That's the way things work, however messed up it may be. It's in our nature to screw things up.

[MonteZuma]

Nice post GL. A breath of fresh air.

[Aileron]

Yeah, I do think its time we all come to agree that Iraq was a grey area action - neither right nor wrong.

 

 

Israel has made real moves for peace, and so have Palestine's official government. The problem is that Hamas does not, and Israel reponds to actions from Hamas by going back on agreements made with the Palestine official government.

 

The problem here is that the real people Israel should be negotiating with is Hamas, and Hamas can't negotiate because they are a terroristic organization.

 

 

The reason I supported the wall in the first place was that it is something Israel MUST agree to no matter what Hamas does. They can't really move the wall east offer good reason why they need to move farther east. Israeli settlers now would know that east of the wall is out of bounds.

 

Basically, the wall shouldn't be torn down, there should be some obvious ground rules placed.

 

1) Palestine becomes a state. The wall becomes the border between the two countries.

 

2) Israeli settlers cannot settle on the eastern side of the wall.

 

3) Full trade embargo on the country that tries to advance beyond the wall.

 

4) Something has to be worked out for people who visit religious monuments on the other side of the wall.

 

Basically, we can use the wall's presence as a springboard to handle the Israeli side of things. If you built the wall, you can certainly stay on your side of it.

 

All we would need to do after that is get Hamas to stop messing up the works, and give Palestine a little economic aid. Unfortunately, they have few natural resources. I'd say the best thing they could produce is machinery for Oil drilling, which they could sell to neighboring countries. Really though, tehy need their own companies, with internationals investing in them.

[MonteZuma]

Israel has made real moves for peace, and so have Palestine's official government.

I disagree. The moves towards peace on both sides have been half-arsed.

 

The problem is that Hamas does not, and Israel reponds to actions from Hamas by going back on agreements made with the Palestine official government.

It is a lot more complicated than that. On-going residential development and settlement in the occupied territories for example.

 

The problem here is that the real people Israel should be negotiating with is Hamas, and Hamas can't negotiate because they are a terroristic organization.

Israel needs to negotiate with Mr and Mrs Joe Average. They need to win the hearts and minds of ordinary Palestinians. Hamas is a terrorist organisation and needs to be treated as such. Hamas are evil.

 

The reason I supported the wall in the first place was that it is something Israel MUST agree to no matter what Hamas does. They can't really move the wall east offer good reason why they need to move farther east. Israeli settlers now would know that east of the wall is out of bounds.

Not sure what you are saying here but I'm pretty sure I disagree 100%.

 

Basically, the wall shouldn't be torn down, there should be some obvious ground rules placed.

The UN has made some ground rules which are being ignored by Israel, the US and some other recalcitrant states.

 

1) Palestine becomes a state. The wall becomes the border between the two countries.

 

2) Israeli settlers cannot settle on the eastern side of the wall.

 

3) Full trade embargo on the country that tries to advance beyond the wall.

 

4) Something has to be worked out for people who visit religious monuments on the other side of the wall.

 

Basically, we can use the wall's presence as a springboard to handle the Israeli side of things. If you built the wall, you can certainly stay on your side of it.

A very logical solution strongly in favour of Israel that won't stop terrorism. I'd try something else. A wall wouldn't be included in the deal.

 

All we would need to do after that is get Hamas to stop messing up the works, and give Palestine a little economic aid.

Hamas is only part of the problem. The Palestinian Authority already gets a fair bit of aid and there are claims that this isn't put to proper use. The place is a mess - not just because of Hamas.

 

Unfortunately, they have few natural resources. I'd say the best thing they could produce is machinery for Oil drilling, which they could sell to neighboring countries. Really though, tehy need their own companies, with internationals investing in them.

Israel do not want Palestine to be self-sufficient. They recently shut down Gaza International Airport and a sea port that was under construction - claiming that they were transit points for terrorists. Israels policy - in response to the terror attacks - is to keep the Palestinians under their thumb. What they don't realise is that the lack of freedom that the Palestinians have is what is fuelling the terrorism.

 

What we need to see improvement in the Arab/Israeli issue is a change of policy from Israel. They are the ones with the power to make change.

[Hempz]

Buddy isreal and palestine gonna fight till the last one dies.

 

They can never have peace. Its in its histroy go read!

 

Himura Kenshin Im with ya

Some people say that after the Palestinian (wtfspelled) if it ever ends... between Isreal and Palestinian .. For all Religion's there will be the great war called Armeggedon I guess. blah haha, course this is off-topic but nvm.

[Aileron]

Yeah, Israel and Palestine will always fight unless you put some kind of barrier between them (maybe a large concrete wall) rendering them almost unable to strike at each other.

 

Saying "its just complicated" and then opposing every proposed solution that comes up isn't intelligent, its pessimistic. A glove does not have to fit each and every line on your palm in order to fit. Thus, a solution does not necessarily need to cover every detail in order to solve the big problems.

 

You are just slightly missing my point. With the wall in place, they CAN'T REFUSE certain resolutions. We can use the wall as political leverage to prevent Israel from taking any more actions against the Palestinians.

 

A wall is a sign of a defensive mindset. Walls have no offensive capabilities. They are actually counterproductive to offensive action, because it creates supply line problems.

 

By building the wall, Israel has given up most of their offensive capability. They now established a border. The east side of it is Palestinian turf. It takes a lot more resources and a lot more justification to warrant military actions on the east side of this wall.

 

QUOTE 

1) Palestine becomes a state. The wall becomes the border between the two countries.

 

2) Israeli settlers cannot settle on the eastern side of the wall.

 

3) Full trade embargo on the country that tries to advance beyond the wall.

 

4) Something has to be worked out for people who visit religious monuments on the other side of the wall.

 

Basically, we can use the wall's presence as a springboard to handle the Israeli side of things. If you built the wall, you can certainly stay on your side of it.

 

A very logical solution strongly in favour of Israel that won't stop terrorism. I'd try something else. A wall wouldn't be included in the deal.

 

You'd try "something else"? -*BAD WORD*-, "something else" seems to solve every problem, and I have never found a flaw with "something else".

 

I think the wall is a good enough idea until "something else" is defined. We can't prevent the application of real solutions for the sake of those that aren't even stated. Unless you have an idea more structured than "something else", I don't want to hear this kind of criticism, and Israel probably doesn't either.

 

 

Well, then, its clear what Israel is trying to do. The wall works really well with the rest of their policy. This policy might work, it might not. The point is that it COULD work, and the UN voted against it, because they too compared it to "something else".

[Dr.Worthless]

By building the wall, Israel has given up most of their offensive capability.

 

One probem really, Israel is supplied by the US, which means they use smart bombs and missles. Those go over walls =)

[Aileron]

....

 

You miss my point as well.

 

I didn't mean in terms of raw capability to hit a target on the other side of the wall. The wall has gates, so they still have the capability of striking any target they want, even with tanks or the like. Now, the wall does limit their capability to wage long term conflicts, because it forces supply lines to go through certain gates.

 

However, I didn't mean in terms of that either.

 

I meant in terms of the fact that military forces needs to be rallied, and have a morale factor. I'm talking in terms of the psycological impact on the soldiers participating, as well as the need to rally public and international support.

 

Before the wall, all the territory was Israeli. The troops were acting on their own terf. They were police forces removing criminals from places they had no right to be. The people throwing rocks were silly rioters that didn't know what they were doing.

 

Now, the area over the wall in enemy terroritory. Any troops on the east side will be invaders. Those they are attacking are now foreigners. Those who throw rocks at them are only upset about the breach in territory.

 

It will get much more difficult in respect of rallying forces and justifying action.

[MonteZuma]

Yeah, Israel and Palestine will always fight unless you put some kind of barrier between them (maybe a large concrete wall) rendering them almost unable to strike at each other.

The Antlantic Ocean didn't stop attacks by terrorists on the US. The barrier that is in place needs to be an intelligent one. I'd suggest a psychological barrier.

 

Saying "its just complicated" and then opposing every proposed solution that comes up isn't intelligent, its pessimistic.

Not pessimistic. Realistic. There will be no solution to this problem in the short term. The problem needs to be managed. The world needs to work towards a solution but not expect one in the immediate future.

 

With the wall in place, they CAN'T REFUSE certain resolutions. We can use the wall as political leverage to prevent Israel from taking any more actions against the Palestinians.

But the wall results in the annexation of palestinian territory and the creation of ghettos of poor and dispossesed people (these are probably the types of people who join Hamas!). The wall represents a policy of apartheid. It isn't a solution, it's a land grab. It is further abuse of Palestinian rights and freedoms. It isn't leverage because the Palestinians don't want it. And do you really think that a concrete wall will stop the Israelis interfering in palestinian affairs?

 

A wall is a sign of a defensive mindset. Walls have no offensive capabilities. They are actually counterproductive to offensive action, because it creates supply line problems.

The Palestinians see it as offensive. The Israelis used it to take more of their territotory and hinder the movement of law abiding citizens. It is not defensive at all in their minds.

 

By building the wall, Israel has given up most of their offensive capability.

Says you. They still have tanks and helicopters and planes and their troops will still go where they want when they want. They have given up nothing. The Palestinians have been forced to surrender land and freedom of movement.

 

They now established a border.

It isn't a border. It is a wall.

 

The east side of it is Palestinian turf.

...and parts of the west side used to be Palestinian turf. Turf that was stolen despite condemnation by the UN.

 

It takes a lot more resources and a lot more justification to warrant military actions on the east side of this wall.

No. It will take less. They've straigtened out the border and locked down millions of innocent people. It won't be harder for Israel to control Palestinian destiny...it will be easier.

 

You'd try "something else"? -*BAD WORD*-, "something else" seems to solve every problem, and I have never found a flaw with "something else".

How about listen to the UN? That'd be a good start. Get the -*BAD WORD*- out of the occupied territories. Support the Palestinian Administration in sensible ways. Listen to ordinary Palestinians. When Palestinians think that the Israeli (and US!)government and people care about what happens to them, support for groups like Hamas will drop off (this is the psychological barrier). Treat Palestinians like animals in a cage and you will breed terrorists. Its a long term plan but it will work. A wall won't work.

 

I think the wall is a good enough idea until "something else" is defined. We can't prevent the application of real solutions for the sake of those that aren't even stated. Unless you have an idea more structured than "something else", I don't want to hear this kind of criticism, and Israel probably doesn't either.

Better ideas are already on the table (and I don't just mean my brilliant suggestions!). Israel doesn't support them because they mean that Israel will have to give up what they have stolen.

 

In any case, if a proposed 'solution' is bad then it is bad. It doesn't matter if there is nothing else suggested. The wall makes matters worse in the region. It is not an improvement in relations or a way of combatting terrorism. It breeds terrorism and disposses ordinary citizens. It is bad policy.

 

And...do you really think that it is up to us to solve this right here and now anyway? It doesn't matter what we say in this forum. In the long term, we need a solution where both sides can say they thought it up themselves. Both sides need to feel that they are winners. The wall makes everyone feel like rats in a cage.

 

Well, then, its clear what Israel is trying to do. The wall works really well with the rest of their policy. This policy might work, it might not. The point is that it COULD work, and the UN voted against it, because they too compared it to "something else".

It can't work. If you had the capacity to see this from the Palestinian pov you would realise that. Fortunately most of the UN is a little more empathetic than you.

[MonteZuma]

Before the wall, all the territory was Israeli.  The troops were acting on their own terf.

No it wasn't and no they weren't.

[Aileron]

That last comment was to describe the situation in the minds of Israeli soldiers, admittingly a surmised comment. The actual legal status of the territory is relevent, but not in this specific case.

 

I see I cannot quite describe my arguement, so I'll try a simpler one:

 

Suppose the wall stands. How, exactly, could Israel justify large action east of the wall to their people, their troops, and the international community? What type of idiot Israeli settler would settle east of this wall?

 

The point is, Israel has been gradually moving east. With construction of this wall, Israel won't move farther east.

 

 

I will agree with no contest that the wall happens to be placed too far east.

 

 

 

 

So, Israel should just drop everything and listen to the UN? The UN is irrelevent. If the UN was relevent, they wouldn't have this problem in the first place! The UN is too weak, stupid, and divided to give any suggestions that will work.

 

Listening to "joe smoe" Palestinian sounds nice. However, it isn't "joe smoe" Palestinian that becomes a terrorist, rather than "crazy nutcase" Palestinian.

 

That doesn't make what Israel does right. However, does that really change anything? So, we need to let people die just because Israel's decisions haven't always been moral?

 

Peace first, judgement second. We need to stop the blood fued first, then worry about who is right and who is wrong.

[MonteZuma]

(1)  That last comment was to describe the situation in the minds of Israeli soldiers, admittingly a surmised comment.  The actual legal status of the territory is relevent, but not in this specific case.

 

(2) Suppose the wall stands.  How, exactly, could Israel justify large action east of the wall to their people, their troops, and the international community?  What type of idiot Israeli settler would settle east of this wall?

 

(3) The point is, Israel has been gradually moving east.  With construction of this wall, Israel won't move farther east. 

 

(4) I will agree with no contest that the wall happens to be placed too far east.

 

(5) So, Israel should just drop everything and listen to the UN?  The UN is irrelevent.  If the UN was relevent, they wouldn't have this problem in the first place!  The UN is too weak, stupid, and divided to give any suggestions that will work.

 

(6) Listening to "joe smoe" Palestinian sounds nice.  However, it isn't "joe smoe" Palestinian that becomes a terrorist, rather than "crazy nutcase" Palestinian.

 

(7) That doesn't make what Israel does right.  However, does that really change anything?  So, we need to let people die just because Israel's decisions haven't always been moral?

 

(  Peace first, judgement second.  We need to stop the blood fued first, then worry about who is right and who is wrong.

(1) I realise that. But it is directly relevant in the minds if the Palestinians who live in these areas and in the shadow of the wall.

 

(2) The same way they justify it now.

 

(3) I'm not so sure. The wall does not surround everything. In any case it is not up to the Israelis to draw a line in the sand. Both sides need to do it - and agree on it - to secure a peace.

 

(4) The difference between our views seems to be that you think that the palestinians should be cool with that and I think that they should not and will not.

 

(5) Pretty much. The UN isn't irrelevant. The UN isn't perfect. It never was. But it is the best ins!@#$%^&*ution we have. It is foolish to claim that the UN is stupid. If it is weak it is because some member states don't support it.

 

(6) Terrorists aren't crazy nutcases. Fact. They become crazed.

 

(7) We don't need to let people die. We need to address the issues that make people become terrorists. Walls don't do that.

 

( The wall won't bring peace. It brings hostility and resentment and indignation. The blood feud will continue.

[Aileron]

(2) No, it would be exceedingly more difficult.

 

(3) Both sides don't need to decide where there wall is placed to generate peace. It needs to be as such for the wall to be placed in a fair manner, but not to achieve peace at least in the crudest sense.

 

(4) The Palestinians won't like the placement, but they would eventually forget it, especially when they are no longer losing territory.

 

(5) The UN is an organization devoted to world peace. If they are incapable of delivering that to Israel, why should Israel listen? Its like any business - if the customer doesn't get the product, the customer doesn't pay. The UN is kind of like a business. It serves world nations by delivering the product of world peace. That product hasn't been delivered to Israel.

 

(6 & 7) Sane people don't blow themselves up for little or no reason. They would like to make it count. Sane palestinians are the ones who throw rocks. It doesn't take much to make a Palestinian hate Israel - it takes a lot more to get a Palestinian to blow themselves up.

 

( I didn't mean with the wall specifically. The point is that it is irrelevent which side is right and which on is wrong, and we shouldn't let such judgements interfere with a peace plan.

[Dr.Worthless]

(5) Pretty much. The UN isn't irrelevant. The UN isn't perfect. It never was. But it is the best ins!@#$%^&*ution we have. It is foolish to claim that the UN is stupid. If it is weak it is because some member states don't support it.

 

I'll just pipe in and say the UN is weak because it has no backbone. It wants to use resolutions and threats to enforce compliance. When it comes to putting troops out in the field to enforce the resolutions, the majority of the UN's members wont do it.

[Aileron]

Really, though, it doesn't matter how good or bad the UN is to the rest of the world - it just matters if they or if they did not deliver to Israel specifically.

 

Israel has been being attacked for the longest time now, and the UN has not given Israel peace. Israel definitely should have been patient at first, which they were, but now there patience should be long gone. The UN had their chance in Israel and they failed. Israel needs to move on to the next idea.

 

 

 

Look, the reason why peace hasn't been achieved is because the foreign community is making judgements. They try to decide which side is wrong while the bombs are still falling. Right now, it doesn't matter. It will matter later when we can work out a long-term peace plan, but right now we need to seek a simple armistace.

 

The wall has about a good 30% chance of working and probably can't make the situation worse. Considering it is already built, those odds are good enough that it is worth a shot at this point.

[MonteZuma]

(1)  Both sides don't need to decide where there wall is placed to generate peace.  It needs to be as such for the wall to be placed in a fair manner, but not to achieve peace at least in the crudest sense.

 

(2)  The Palestinians won't like the placement, but they would eventually forget it, especially when they are no longer losing territory.

 

(3)  The UN is an organization devoted to world peace.  If they are incapable of delivering that to Israel, why should Israel listen?  Its like any business - if the customer doesn't get the product, the customer doesn't pay.  The UN is kind of like a business.  It serves world nations by delivering the product of world peace.  That product hasn't been delivered to Israel.

 

(4)  Sane people don't blow themselves up for little or no reason.  They would like to make it count.  Sane palestinians are the ones who throw rocks.  It doesn't take much to make a Palestinian hate Israel - it takes a lot more to get a Palestinian to blow themselves up.

 

(5)  I didn't mean with the wall specifically.  The point is that it is irrelevent which side is right and which on is wrong, and we shouldn't let such judgements interfere with a peace plan.

(1) Wrong. Injustices like the wall fuel the continued anger and hatred.

 

(2) What evidence do you have of that? The Jews never forgot that God told Abraham that Israel was their promised land. The Palestinians wont forget a friggin wall built on their homeland. They will be reminded of Israel's land grab every friggin day.

 

(3) The UN can only help if both sides co-operate. Israel won't co-operate because it is less interested in peace and more interested in control. The UN isn't a peace-maker.

 

(4) They are blowing themselves up for a reason, and, at least in their mind, they are 'making it count'.

 

(5) Are you serious? This is all about feelings of right and wrong, justice and injustice. There won't be peace until these issues are addressed. Fairly and squarely.

[MonteZuma]

(1) Israel has been being attacked for the longest time now, and the UN has not given Israel peace.  Israel definitely should have been patient at first, which they were, but now there patience should be long gone.  The UN had their chance in Israel and they failed.  Israel needs to move on to the next idea.

 

(2) Look, the reason why peace hasn't been achieved is because the foreign community is making judgements.  They try to decide which side is wrong while the bombs are still falling.  Right now, it doesn't matter.  It will matter later when we can work out a long-term peace plan, but right now we need to seek a simple armistace.

 

(3)  The wall has about a good 30% chance of working and probably can't make the situation worse.  Considering it is already built, those odds are good enough that it is worth a shot at this point.

(1) Israel...patient???? WTF? Have a look at the history of Israel since 1948. It is a history of aggression and conquest. Not a history of patience.

 

(2) No. It is because a people have been dispossessed. The wall is not an armistice.

 

(3) Which thumb did you suck that 30% guess from? It can and will make the situation worse. It isn't already built. Palestinian houses are still being destroyed.

 

If Israel wanted peace they would tear the wall down and remove settlers from the occupied territories. Then they should negotiate about what else to do with the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian people.