Spider attach bty

[talion]

lol, who do you expect to read that.

 

someone summarize in one 10 line paragraph please? lol

[SeVeR]

Simply put: what we need is a league which the pub players will play as well as the veterans (who are important cos they actually make the squads and bring in players from dsb, swr etc.). This is done by making a pub league so that pubbers will take part as its familiar. However to get the vets to play and bring in people it needs to have ships that are not stupidly specialised for one purpose (like the lev and spider). Thats why a settings change is needed before any pub league can happen. I would also sugest removing soccer and basing 17th around something else as most vets have no respect for soccer in 17th and can go to better soccer zones with more established soccer leagues for that. So new ships, new game please.

[Vile Requiem]

Jimmah wins the summary cookie.

[talion]

what else would you base 17th on then. someone else said it before: only hockey and proball feature soccer. they are both also very different from 17th's version of soccer. 17th soccer is unique. i suspect "vets" dont respect it for some other reason.

 

and this zone always talks about settings changes but they rarely happen and whenever they do happen they get slammed. and noone gets paid to put up with it. i forget wher ei was going with this

 

end transmission

[Yupa]

so...Mak and I should get paid to put up with it

[Cid Firefist]

Yeah and about those spiders....man that attach bty is way too high.... Ok I'm done.....

[DaKillaRoach]

Speak it Maka, SAY IT ALLLL!!! SHOW THEM WHAT WE MEANZA!!!

[Delic]

However to get the vets to play and bring in people it needs to have ships that are not stupidly specialised for one purpose (like the lev and spider).

 

Wth. This is exactly what made 17th so fun and unique' date=' that the different ships have different unique abilities/skills and different ways of combat.

It was also good to have ships specialized for specific purposes because it forced you to use different ships, depending on the situation.

 

Warbird: Troop carrier.

Javelin: Fighter craft.

Spider: Ambush craft.

Leviathan: Long range heavy bomber.

Terrier: All-purpose support craft.

[s']Weasel[/s]: Shock attack craft.

Lancaster: Close range bomber.

Shark: Cloakable fighter/bomber.

 

I mean... what other ship settings are better suited for this zone?

You might as well change the name of the zone if you're going to change everything that has to do with 17th Parallel.

To be honest I wouldn't even mind the old weasel, it was the easiest ship to kill if you had x-radar, but to see a new fighter that could compete with the jav would be nice, plus it would open doors to new events.

God I've been saying that for years

[Tempest]

Let me clarify something: when I stated that growth is more important than fun, I acknowledge that they are fundamentally linked. However, I would place growth above fun in that when growth is possible at the expense of fun, I would pursue growth.

 

There seem to be three options. We could retain the map we have now, and simply exist as we are. We could change the map into something different altogether, making it both unique and different from oldmap settings, and attempt to give it more potential than pre-change settings had. Or simply revert to old settings.

 

We seem to be arguing over one point over and over again: did the majority of players leave pre or post changes? If it can be proven that they left pre-change, then logic would dictate that reverting to oldmap would be a mistake. If the opposite is true, then oldmap remains a valid option.

 

However, even if the latter were true, you seem to have presented no evidence that the majority of the zone welcomes reversion back to oldmap sets. How can you assume that newbies will take to the older settings as much as the older players did? And how can you assume that player levels would have increased during the 'brief time' when oldmap settings were used if we had kept it? There appeared to be no sign of such a revival at the time. Simply having a handful of vets who prefer oldmap isn't enough. Even those who welcome change may not welcome pre-change sets. Reverting to oldmap will, therefore, be a risky proposition.

 

(Edited several times because I can't structure an argument properly)

[Delic]

I have never said that the majority of the current players would prefer the old settings.

However, I do believe that players who've never been here before will play whatever it is that we give them, since they don't know anything else, since they're NEW.

 

. How can you assume that newbies will take to the older settings as much as the older players did? And how can you assume that player levels would have increased during the 'brief time' when oldmap settings were used if we had kept it?

 

As I said' date=' players would have came here despite of what settings we had, how can you think otherwise?

Let's turn this around, how can YOU assume that the newbies [b']wouldn't[/b] have liked the old settings better?

 

Everyone who's anyone KNOWS that the ship settings have been cripplied, and that they now are much easier to use and that they simply have been newbiefied, and just because nobody will give the old settings a chance it doesn't change the fact that they are more suitable for this zone as they take more skills, and were designed after the theme.

[Delic]

Hey this is a rather important topic, always good to discuss this

[talion]

delic is a professional second guesser, rice.

[Yupa]

deleted all those stupid 'last word' posts

[Tipme]

pfft

whatever

delic rules

[SeVeR]

we should never go back to the old sets again. it was tried once before anyway and made things worse. they were fun sometimes i admit but i wouldn't want them in pub, they belong in a subarena and thats where they can be found i believe... ?go oldmap of something like that.

 

As for what to base it on. use turf flags but make the whole game centred more on the actual fighting between ships and the killing so that the flags are just an indication of who fights the best. Make each ship able to fight eachother in the open and then add a game.. leave it as soccer if you want but flags would work better.

[Delic]

What you're saying is that we should create a completely new zone, with new settings and a completely new style of map?

That we should just forget about the settings that our former sysops designed to match this zone's theme so perfectly?

 

Then you might as well change the zone name then, for real.

 

As for why the settings didn't "work", I've already explained why.

 

I look down at you people, for real, I look at you and I see traitors, how silly that may sound.

[Yupa]

what Mak said

[SeVeR]

Well actually no....

 

I'm saying keep the jav. Also i'm saying take it back to north/south and back to flagging. On top of this i'm talking spawn points north and south for each freq so effectively it'll be even more like Nam where each side defends their half and launches attacks on the other. Add in some nice jungle/building graphics for the tiles and its even more like the name suggests. It'll be more of a 17th parallel than it was before without the awful ships that can't be used outside pub or fight eachother anywhere properly on equal terms. The old sets didn't work and were re-tried only to fail. Learn the mistakes of history or be doomed to repeat them someone once said..

[talion]

yes delic, we all betrayed 17th parallel, the greatest ideal ever in subspace, no, human, history!

 

lol gimme a break. you don't have the old sysops, you don't have the old settings, and it's unlikely either will return. so why don't you try making new settings, instead of -*BAD WORD*-ing ad nauseum about how "great" the old settings were.

 

you can do what i do when i start waxing poetic about how much i sometimes hate chaos pub, you go to a subarena which you like. when you're sitting in spec doing other things, go to the arena you want to "vote" for.

 

more words don't make you more right.

[Delic]

Talion, the old settings were designed by the creators of this zone, they shaped the settings after this zone, that is why they suit this zone, how can you not understand this?

They made this zone, they created it from scratch and that's why their settings are great, because they were made for this zone.

And no, you didn't betray 17th Parallel, because you never knew 17th, so you couldn't possibly betray it.

 

It'll be more of a 17th parallel than it was before without the awful ships that can't be used outside pub or fight eachother anywhere properly on equal terms.

 

See' date=' that's what made 17th different: team work between different ships was required.

A team couldn't attack another team with only one type of ship, because the team that used all the ships would win by taking advantage of the other ship's weaknesses.

 

What you want is any ship to be able to kill any other ship anywhere, this is what Zeke tried to do.

That means that team work wouldn't be as necessary, which means that the ability to work together as a team by co-operating with all these different kinds of combat types that the old ship settings provided would no longer be needed.

 

That's why the new settings are considered less fun by us who've played with the old settings. That's what made the old settings so great and fun, the variation between the ships and the fact that a team could only be successful by combining the ships.

 

You say that the old ships couldn't fight eachother on equal terms, I say that each ship had a specific purpose depending on the situation and location.

If a levi is heading towards a base when there's a spider in it, -*BAD WORD*- nah it's not equal terms, and the levi would learn that, and that would force the pilot to use another ship which was more suitable for the situation that he was facing.

That's what made the old ship settings so great.

 

But how can you say that the other ships didn't work for anything else than pub?

That's just a re-*BAD WORD*-ed thing to say, I'm sorry.

Events HAVE been made for other ships and they've all worked perfectly fine (like flagcap and lancwar).

Sure, there still hasn't been any really successful event for a ship other than jav, but that's only because no one has TRIED to make one.

 

The old sets didn't work and were re-tried only to fail. Learn the mistakes of history or be doomed to repeat them someone once said..

 

As I've said, the old settings didn't work because they were judged by the "testers" before they even gave them a chance.

These people rarely even played this game, so of course they wouldn't understand the value of the things they ruined.

 

Few people know the real mistakes that have been made in this zone, that is why we're still stuck today, since they can't learn from something that they don't know anything about.

[Tempest]

Talion, the old settings were designed by the creators of this zone, they shaped the settings after this zone, that is why they suit this zone, how can you not understand this?

Forgive my ignorance, but I don't seem to understand your argument. You could either be saying that the old settings suited the zone in terms of theme (Vietnam), or that they are superior because they were the original settings created.

 

Thematically, I see no reason why conforming to the Vietnam idea should be so important, and any argument made stating that the old settings worked better because it fits the theme is tenuous at best. Yes, the zone is '17th Parallel', but I would hardly describe Trench Wars as an accurate depiction of the Great War.

 

The latter argument is also flawed - what has been done cannot be undone. The 17th of today is different of that of yesteryear, not only in terms of settings and maps but also players, whom, as you had acknowledged above, might not (and, as Sever and Talion proved above) welcome the change back. Our current settings fit the players we have: any change of such magnitude would likely only drive them away.

 

See, that's what made 17th different: team work between different ships was required.

A team couldn't attack another team with only one type of ship, because the team that used all the ships would win by taking advantage of the other ship's weaknesses.

 

That's what made the old settings so great and fun, the variation between the ships and the fact that a team could only be successful by combining the ships.

 

On the contrary, almost any zone has a similar system. Can you say that there is no teamwork between differing ships in DSB? In TW? In MG?

 

That's why the new settings are considered less fun by us who've played with the old settings.

A generalisation, no doubt. Consider how few of 'us' there are left. Why should the zone change for the whims of the minority? And do you think that the players we currently have will also consider old settings more fun than the new?

 

If a levi is heading towards a base when there's a spider in it, -*BAD WORD*- nah it's not equal terms, and the levi would learn that, and that would force the pilot to use another ship which was more suitable for the situation that he was facing.

 

I fail to see how that's not applicable today.

 

As I've said, the old settings didn't work because they were judged by the "testers" before they even gave them a chance.

 

How can you have such confidence that old settings will attract players when there has been no such precedent before? It seems no more than mere guesswork to me, and I don't see how you can base an entire argument upon a supposition.

[NBVegita]

For all the praise and glory the "old sysops" should be recieving, dire wolf came on the other day and played pub for a bit. The only people in the arena who either:

 

a) remembered who he was

 

knew who he was in the first place

 

were ntfx, and tablet (with a few exceptions always). Elite One, and Dire Wolf had the same problems our current sysops are having now. People were bored of the settings, bored of the map. Every change THEY did, EO and DW was flamed just like every little change we do now. Its a viscious cycle, no one appreciated them while they were here, and now, 2 years later, everyone praises them for how well they ran the zone. Well -*BAD WORD*-, if you liked how well they ran the zone, they why did you, the players force them out? Now there were other factors involved in them leaving, but this was a main factor. Me and dire are very close irl, he actually introduced me to this game, and you have no idea what they went through, him and his brother. You're right, they won't come back. And they have no reason to, as same as before, it would be "yay dire and eo are back!!!", and in two months there would be flame on the forums about them.

[talion]

i played 17th when it was north vs south delic, as a pure pub player. it was not what it is now. what you have now is different, for sure. better? who can say. i don't miss weasels wall bombing everywhere, or spiders dominating bases (alot) more than they do today, or blue lamecaster bombs flying everywhere in the middle.

 

17th is better off today than it was then population wise. and that was "true" 17th, and always has been in my mind. and i'm sorry if you disagree with that, because future incarnations have inevitably gotten farther and farther from the vietnam concept than the original, as the original was pretty much as close to it as subspace could/can get.

 

Archaic usage: The demilitarized area between North and South

               Vietnam on Terra.

 

17th Parallel Station: Behemoth class station. The collapse of the

                       Terran Empire two centuries previous has caused

                       the station to descend into anarchy. Factions

                       onboard have been battling for generations to

                       gain supremacy. Now it is your turn. Constant

                       turf-wars in the north' date=' battles rage between

                       east and west for base control.

 

                       In war, no one is safe.[/quote']

 

I could talk about how it says "ARCHAIC USAGE," but i'd say that's fairly obvious. in fact i'd say that 17th has conciously been trying to get away from the vietnam theme. change is good sometimes. i'd say this time it's been good. zone's bigger than it was any time i played it (and when it was peak it wasn't with original anything as far as i understand? i wasn't here for it), and you aren't losing too many players to other zones.

[SeVeR]

Delic most of your so called vets left pub before the settings were changed if you remember. We were all tired of the weasel and not being able to go anywhere inside bases without being wiped out by spiders or terriers. It was fun i agree but it didn't last because it didn't require much skill to master. Once you knew how to weasel bomb, or mine rep in the terr or cloak aand burst in the spider it didn't require anymore skills and became boring.

 

Making the ships more equal won't reduce teamwork. There was less teamwork back then than there is now. If you make two spawn points and input some turf flags it'll rock as far as teamwork is concerned and we can get a real 17th war going on that requires skills to master and not specialist ship attributes that can be learnt/mastered in a week. you must understand this surely.

[DaKillaRoach]

Ill stand by Makas side on this till the en, I loved the settings that much compared to the crap we have today. -*BAD WORD*- 17th was what KEPT me in Continuum after coming from Infantry, but do what you want, in my eyes 17th is about to die because the settings wont be coming back so there seems no point in arguing about this anymore.

 

The 17th as we knew it is gone, and this new supposedly 'improved' version is here... hopefully for not much longer, and we get at least somethingthing partially good and maybe a good map to!? Although this argument is falling on deaf ears.

 

Rest in peace ya old 17th settings

 

$