Spider attach bty

[Tipme]

lets just change the whole concept

lord of the rings style!

freeq0 = orcs

freq 1= people of minas tirith

 

freq0 tries to take over minas tirith and then switch sides !

man i got the coolest ideas

bling bling

[Delic]

id rather see the zone change its name than go into a vietnam plot.

 

...

 

this is not a democracy.  and it doesnt have to be.  im impressed with how well law and order is brought into this zone.  i run a simpsons forum' date=' and the admins there just ban anyone they dont like.[/quote']

 

If this was a democracy then we would be playing with the old settings right now' date=' because what people said for months would have mattered to those in charge, so I know that this isn't a democracy.

 

the problem is no one really knows what they want.

 

Most players are like guests, and we (the staff) are the hosts. We present to them what we have to offer and if they like it they will stay with us.

This isn't really about what players want, it's about what upperstaff provides them with.

Because you're right, people don't know what they want, because upperstaff doesn't know what to provide them with, so they just stick with what we have, and tweak it a bit, in fear that if they offer something that they don't like, they will all leave.

 

they ask what you want' date=' and you say old ship settings.  watch them put the old shipping settings on now.  everyone will quit.[/quote']

 

I could still give you a list of known players who would prefer the old settings

 

And I'm not saying that someone should just type ?setsettings oldsetts.set, because that would be good for nothing. It has to be well thought of.

 

vile is the only sysop that really plays.

 

Hm' date=' can't seem to find his name in the scores site [img']http://www.ssforum.net/public/style_emoticons/default/blum.gif[/img]

 

i trust vile to do his best for this zone.  of course' date=' if he doesnt like the old ship settings, they wont come back.[/quote']

 

I have a log (somewhere) from some months ago where Vile himself said that I had convinced him, but that he wasn't the one to convince

 

vile seems to listen to advice quite well.  he created ?go league' date=' and ran a tournament for it, because of a simple thread made in this forum.[/quote']

 

I respect Vile for everything that he has done, and has tried to do for this zone, I truly do, it's been clear to me for a long time that he is just trying to make this a better zone, and for that he deserves my respect, but that doesn't mean that I agree with how he's trying to do it, and his ideas

[DaKillaRoach]

As always, Delic leads the fight to get back the old sets because they are better than the new sets and im right behind hmi no this (no funny jokes please).

 

Delic speaks what almost every single vet of 17th wants, and even a few newer players also.

 

Also Kent 'id rather see the zone change its name than go into a vietnam plot.'

 

The zone is named AFTER an area in Vietnam nicknamed 'the 17th Parallel'.

 

The old settings were based on something real, their fore the work created on them wasnt in public gain or special liking of ships, it was created with balance in mind, and balance it got.

 

Alot of people complained about the old weasel, and all that rubbish; hey I like the old weasel, it was good fun to use, but one ship didnt mean that the entire ship settings needed to be changed, no in fact we could of brought out one of the later designs of weasels we have now (There are about 4 creations flying around 17th sub arenas :/ )

 

This all spirals down to the fact that Zeke wanted this zone to be like Extreme Games (which he has been found having said before he left - Thank god he did before he did anything else!) and so in his bid to, he changed it for 2 weeks as a trial, got slammed with negative feedback, so decided to keep the settings! and we right now we STILL have to suffer with them.

 

The new settings are better than the old settings, there is NO argument against that, its FACT. We might lose a few players if we change back to the old settings, but considering when we first changed our population was sliced in half because of Zekes actions, I can not see it getting worse than that.

[Tempest]

Long.

 

There seems to be a difference of understanding in this debate. Some believe that the regular population voiced their complaints after the settings were changed, and left as a result. The alternative viewpoint seems to be that the regular population started leaving (due to various factors), and that the change in settings re-established a player-base and thereby saved the zone.

 

Rather than waste time arguing about the semantics of Roach's declaration that oldmap settings are strictly better than our current settings, I will instead focus on another point of discussion: several people measure the success of a zone solely by how entertaining it is. I would instead argue that the primary aim of a zone is growth, with fun being a linked but ultimately secondary goal.

 

Since I'm lazy and can't be bothered to rewrite my opinions, here's a post from some time ago: (sections were cut, depending on their relevance to the zone today)

 

First, we should establish the primary target of any zone. It appears that only two factors present themselves in this field: fun and growth. However, being a primary target, only one factor can take precedence: although a zone can be fun and grow at the same time, one must be prioritised over the other. To investigate which should prove more advantageous to a zone in general, we will consider two cases in which one factor is lacking whilst the other is in abundance. The first case would be that of a zone which is considered fun by its players but has a low player base (in that growth is the cause of the player base) and goes not grow; or has negative growth. Although the settings would be considered to be fun, few players participate. Given time, the zone would surely die. The second case is that of a very populous and rapidly growing player base, with settings that are considered by many to be boring or, in some way, not fun. Even though many players may dislike the zone, and the players who play within it have less fun than they would at other zones, they still enter and participate in the zone. Therefore, the zone will prosper and endure. From the above, we can determine that the primary objective of any zone is growth.

 

Now, we will look at specifics: 17th. Already having determined what any zone should aim towards, we should examine in more detail the factors affecting growth. Primarily, the differences in varying zones of varying growth is in its settings and its map. Smaller factors may play a part but none are as important as the previosuly stated factors. Therefore, it seems logical to analyse both in context - that is, 17th. Due to the difficulty of being able to judge the extent and magnitude of how good certain settings are, the only logical option would be to compare them. Since the argument focuses around the old settings (the settings in the North / South map) and the current settings, these will form the basis of our comparison.

 

...we will look at the old settings as they were before any changes took place (around 2 and a half years ago, by my reckoning). The map in this context was the old North / South map. Generally, player levels (numbers) here were higher than that which we are currently experiencing, : growth was being sustained. Yet, despite previous arguments to the contrary, not all players were happy with settings: the weasel was one of the most debated issues, and regardless of the outsome of the debate (which is irrelevant to this argument), the fact that such an argument existed is proof that the old settings still presented problems and players did not see the settings as being perfect in terms of fun.

 

Second, we will examine the old settings again, but post-change: in this case, the map used was exactly the same as the current map. Here, we see a decreasing number of players visiting the zone. As such, growth is not being sustained, and the need for change was obvious... (referring here to the constant map changing days)

 

Now, even supposing that the entirety of the argument above is wrong, and that old settings are indeed better, or hold more potential than current settings, there remains the problem of majority opinion, in that the majority of our players are new. It would be logical to argue that most of the new players we have recieved and who are playing in the zone at this current moment only entered the zone in its phase of growth: that is, after the disasterous series of map changes that anteceded the development of our current settings. Therefore, it is evident that these new players who make up the bulk of our population have never seen or played old settings. How, then, can we state with such certainty that old settings are more suitable for the zone now? Why did newbies who had entered during the period (referring to the brief period in which pub was changed back to oldmap) in which we reverted back to old settings leave? It seems clear to me, then, that arguments about old settings being more suitable are unfounded and deceptive.

 

 

But this is not to say that no action should be taken. We seem to have been experiencing a dip in the player-base lately, and the ratio of spectators to players is higher than ever. Without being overly rash, perhaps some action should be taken to remedy this situation - although note that I am not advocating a reversion to oldmap settings.

 

And Delic - I'd like a copy of that list

[Yupa]

IMO fun and not-screwing-with-things-that-don't-need-to-be-screwed-with should both be before growth

[tablet]

It seems to me that you NBV defend whatever it is that upper staff does' date=' without really considering the effects of the actions they've done and do has on the gameplay.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

...most of the changes that have been made in the past 2 and a half years have slowly made the zone worse...

 

Agreed.

 

...the people of the 17th showed us' date=' ohh so many years ago' date=' what they thought of the old settings.[/quote'']

 

Errm... was that before, during, or after the zone reached triple digit population on a daily basis?

 

 

The fact is simple, and clear. The zone is dying, vet and league wise. NBV u run leagues, even you can admit that leagues are slowly dwindling away, they are nothing like they used to be. Why you ask? becuz all the leaguers we have do not like setts and zone anymore, and we've lost most of our vets. But, the newbs/pubbers love our setts, so this brings up a dilemna. Continue with setts as they are now, and hope that pub grows and build a zone based of pub population and soccer, and watch leagues continue to die.... OR.... try to make a change, bring back the settings which put 17th at its prime, and start rebuilding leagues.

 

Enter started seeing this awhile ago, that's why he created msbl, perhaps a multi-ship league would get more pubbers interested into playing leagues, and hope that leagues would once again rise up and be great again. But for a first season, msbl did well, but in a whole perspective, we lost alot of ppl. Epion should never have won msbl, becuz i made a foolish decision in allowing all 8 remaining squads to enter playoffs. Epion hardly played the regular season, they didn't care, the only showed up on playoffs. I blame myself for the fact that they won msbl season 1.

 

Publeague, "the next big thing to hit 17th", you all know my views about that league. The coordinator didn't even show up for the majority of the season (though there wasn't much to show up for, after all, there were only like what? 2 maybe 3 squads?). Yet another failed attempt to try to put the focus on multi-ship leagues to try and save leagues.

 

JWL was going fine till the finals, (and I know pern or someone is gonna have a talk to me about this cuz I was formerly an SMod for this zone and I'm not sposed to talk bad about it), but you all -*BAD WORD*-ed that up royally. The fact that 2 upper staffers watched the entire event, did nothing about the situation, waited until a complaint was filed, then reviewed it AFTER the event with someoen who WASNT THERE AT ALL and that person who WASNT THERE AT ALL changes the outcome? WTF is that?

 

SBL.... I have heard many complaints about sbl so far, but my one beef is the laziness of hosts. Back when I was staff, you showed up to host events ON TIME. On numerous occasions the hosts have been extremely late. I talked to vile last week, 10 min before a Ferous match, asking him why the match wasnt adverted in pub to gather the squads, he said he didn't know, and did nothing about it. We had protocol, you advert the match early to gather squads so that you START ON TIME, finally someoen came into sbl at 5 min after the match time and did a *zone about the match, then we didnt get started till 15 after, cuz of some screwup about rosters, and if thrawn were there it would work out faster (oh yeah, thrawn is NEVER at any matches), and to top it all off, a staffer who was also on the other team hosted the match, which is something that was never allowed when i was staff.

 

Staff is lazy, you all know you are, you dont want to change setts and you will continue to watch the zone die. Have fun trying to get pub to grow, and letting vile have fun with settings whenever he wants to. This zone flourished on leagues at one time, and the zone will never see that again. Once your leagues die, soon will pub, and 17th will forever be lost into oblivion.

[Yupa]

the zone isn't dying

 

it was fine back in the day

 

-*BAD WORD*-ed with sets, it started dying

 

it's fine now, albeit somewhat less glorious

[DaKillaRoach]

Im against that statement that staff is lazy. Not all of us are, but certain problems do cause not all of us to be able to host leagues etc, but generally as a whole, without causing too much plight, I do agree with Blue.

 

Its this simple; new settings are getting extremly boring, the map is well past its sell-by-date, and there is a decrease in population, especially playing pub because of this problem.

 

Sort the sets out, sort the map out, make a completly new public if you have to, but do something now before 17th hits past the limit from which it cant recover from!

[Vile Requiem]

This is my doctorial thesis in zone engineering

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Statements of the obvious:

1) JWL I/II and RRL II were the most popular leagues in 17th Parallel History.

2) This current map has been in place since January 2001.

3) Except for exact damage and starting with L3, the jav is the only unchanged ship in 17th Parallel History.

4) At the time of MSBL I was the league coordinator.

5) 17th Parallel was once called Warzone Chess, with different settings.

 

A zone succeeds when it's own unique niche can be found among the countless other zones in SS, and people enjoy playing it. It fails if the settings or map suck. 17th has been this twice, once as warzone chess, and once as 17th Parallel's old settings.

 

Where the problem lies is in the uniqueness that is/was 17th Parallel. Every ship in the old settings was wildly different from the others, and it worked as far as pub went. And because the jav's never been molested like the other ships, vets could have fun playing jav leagues and jav events. But that's sadly where the problem came in. The jav was the only way to move up beyond pub in the zone, to the heart of the zone.

 

I do not think anyone will disagree with the fact that 17th Parallel in it's prime was a event/league zone much like Dueling Zone for svs.

 

Nor will people disagree that a zone is healthy when there is a strong community of dedicated players and squads.

 

However, there were players like ants! who just played others ships like the spider or terrier, which were not included in this magnificant javelin heirarchy. Most of the ships were built for pub play in the zone theme, but NOT FOR THE ZONE'S EVENTS OR LEAGUES. This caused a limitation of the size and amount of squads that later came back to bite us in the -*BAD WORD*-.

 

Zone Decline Chart:

Healthy Growing Zone

Peak Pop goes down by 5 avg

One+ major squads break apart

Peak Pop goes down by 10 avg from initial

Leagues Begin to suffer

Another squad goes down the -*BAD WORD*-ter

With less league vets around, there's now less event pop, so less events hosted per day

Lack of events leads to other vets going elsewhere

Lack of vets causes the final dooming of leagues

Lack of leagues fails to draw other squads from elsewhere

Final Squad Breakups

<5 events hosted per day with 6+ people attending

Pub pop begins to parabolically slide into oblivion, large gaps with nobody in the zone.

Death.

 

There was a time when we were right before death, and that is when the settings got changed and brought us back up to the top of the list. However, this fix is now starting to decline, and we're in the "Lack of Vets causes the final dooming of leagues" rung right now, which would only give us a matter of time to fix things.

 

However, how should we do this?

 

The ONLY way to make the zone recover forever is to design the zone this way:

 

1) A unique shipset where most/all ships can participate in 90% of zone leagues (except things like dueling tournaments)

 

2) A public map that doubles as a public league. Soccer may or may not be included., but whatever happens the one singular focus of the map should set us apart from other zones.

 

3) Well designed leagues with competent hosting

 

4) Better/More Devteam Mappers.

 

5) Prayer

 

This is currently the plan the sysops are going by to develop the next evolution of 17th Parallel. However, it's not easy, just like 99% of all new zones fail, so too do 99% of evolutionary ideas. And if we -*BAD WORD*- up the next one, we can't really hope to recover.

 

If those 5 steps don't get done, I don't care if you're George Washington or Ghandi, you're not building a new nation out of the ruins of an old empire.

[Yupa]

Warzone Chess, now THAT zone -*BAD WORD*-ing rawked.

I played that mess all the time until it disappeared.

[talion]

wzc did not rawk. don't know what you're smoking suse, but i was once in that arena with more than 10 people and it didn't "rawk." hope you're being facetious.

 

anyways, vile is about right. unfortunately this zone lets -*BAD WORD*- disturbers on staff, and the competent people are not inclined to join staff. anyways, that's about as much as i'm willing to conjure up in the reasoning department, so i think i'm done. oh wait, i'm not. you have to make people want to play the zone, in all arenas. i still play 17th sometimes but it gets fairly boring, no matter what arena you are in. too much elitism, i say. so you say "but talion, you -*BAD WORD*-ing suck at subspace" to which i respond that's true, but that doesn't give you the right to treat me like a newbie. it happens in all zones really. some person who has only ever played 17th parallel in the public arena for, say, 100 hours and some day decides to give this new fangled "sbl/jwl" thing a try. he shows up to find that he doesn't get picked, and an incompetent ER that can't figure out how to use *setfreq, which is made abundantly clear by the "vets" complaining in pubchat. then, once the ER takes pity and puts all the pubbers on one team as an extra freq (in jwl), or as random subs into teams, they are in an event that once you die once, the pain train doesn't stop. vulching is how 17th events are played. ESPECIALLY jwl and rumble.

 

SOUND FUN?

 

and just to be provocative, blue should never have had his hands on any leagues. sever/jim for that matter too. if you can't write clear, concise, competent rules, or understand them, you shouldn't be anything more than a player. anyways, i don't dislike you blue, but you just didn't get leagues.

 

i like double negatives.

[Yupa]

...you must be crazy

 

Warzone Chess rawked the fawkin' hawse

[tablet]

and just to be provocative, blue should never have had his hands on any leagues. sever/jim for that matter too. if you can't write clear, concise, competent rules, or understand them, you shouldn't be anything more than a player. anyways, i don't dislike you blue, but you just didn't get leagues.

Lol

 

I coordinated MSBL with net on enters behalf, and for the first ever multi-ship league it ran fine, but I did admit I -*BAD WORD*-ed up when doing playoffs, so sue me. And as for the rules, Enter wrote 99% of them, all my ideas were run through enter first and ok'd before they were enforced, the only difference, I took all the -*BAD WORD*-. And for the record, how could you NOT understand the msbl rules?

 

Oh, and I ran Elim League beautifully, though I admit it wasn't hard, still confused on how matrix -*BAD WORD*-ed up season 1. Every complaint about that league was cuz of setts in the arena, which SOMEONE who's name starts with a V did one day, w/o my consent, and the setts in there were never restored. Apparently they were "lost".

 

 

Jim's rules WERE confusing and somewhat stupid but I wasn't in control of that.

 

 

Talion, I don't remember you running a single league, all I remember is you -*BAD WORD*-ing up a JWL Ama match and then forging the scores to that match so that you didn't look like a moron.

[Vile Requiem]

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me as to when I ever touched elim (and what I did)?

That was rifleman unless i'm quite mistaken.

[talion]

i didn't -*BAD WORD*- that match up, i've said that a hojillion times. so i actually havent, but it feels like it. luckily it was a squad apple was a part of (or so i recall), so it was doomed anyways. and i'm insulted you'd think i'd forge something i've never forged anything but calculus homework.

 

this is what i mean, you don't get rules and by extension leagues. i never read anything about elim league but if you could do it it must have been an EZ PZ LEAGUE to organize.

 

his rules weren't confusing and stupid, they were essentially imaginary. as in, they barely existed as something extra to the rules at a1.

 

provocation delivered, and risen to!

 

can i have some of what you got suse

i mean your drugs, not mojo.

[Cid Firefist]

i didn't -*BAD WORD*- that match up, i've said that a hojillion times. so i actually havent, but it feels like it. luckily it was a squad apple was a part of (or so i recall), so it was doomed anyways.

Eat me. That ama is what -*BAD WORD*-ed up Naturae. Naturae was my attempt to make a league squad because Pie Squad was full of pubbers and I didnt have the heart to kick them so I dissolved. That one ama match is what killed the squad. We were all set for league and then only two squads show and to top it all off the results are screwed. Pissed me off so bad I granted to Blue and quit playing for awhile.

 

 

P.S. Lower spider bty!!!!!!

[Delic]

So much ignorance... gah.

[talion]

crap apple omg you found teh conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

[Tipme]

shut up

[NBVegita]

Just a quick timeline adjustment

 

zone = 100 pop

 

Elite One is head sysop with Dire Wolf right by his side. I ran dueling league, while jim simultaneously ran the first season of jwl.

 

pop = 20

 

A few months later late fall/winter of the same year. Set were same as 100 population. Elite One, and Dire Wolf both resigned from their respective positions, along with a few other staffers. Zeke newly promoted to sysop, and I do believe Enterprise was head sysop. The zone had 20 players in it, on average, with no change in gameplay/setting/maps for over 8 months.

 

Zeke was a good man for doing what he did. If not for Zeke, and the 17th staff at the time, we would not have a zone to argue over today. Do I agree that the current sets are the way to go? No, I do not.

 

Can we go back to the old sets? No we can not.

 

The biggest issue is not the settings, its the map. We've had this same map, with one minor adjustment, for about 1 1/2 years. We need a new map, and then, with a new map, adjust the settings to work efficently with that map.

 

You all talk about noone in this zone thinking of whats best for the zone, but what mike wants is a new map first. This map is stale, and should be removed. But we've had no new maps coming in and or out. Why create, and or adjust setting around a mpa we will just have to change? People do not like change. Every change done will get flame, and praise. You want the settings to change. Give us a map. If you've given us a map, talk to telson and pern. Our "freaky friday" was the greatest thing in developement to happen in this zone in a very long time. But we need your help.

 

Yes leagues are in bad shape. I am doing everything I can, along with Thrawn to pull them back into shape. But its not only the staffs help we'll need, it's the players too. All the vets run around bad mouthing the zone, and what is a newb supposed to do when a vet does nothing but bash the zone? Defend a zone he likes to play, and get called an annoying newb, or go along with the vet? As with any zone, the players and staff must work towards any population increase, and smoothness in the zone.

 

Well time to sit back and let the flaming begin.

[SeVeR]

Which of the rules were stupid/confusing/difficult to understand? I ran two highly succesful seasons of jwl with rules almost no different to those. The first season i ran by myself, blitzing a keyboard with commands for an hour and a half, and calculating scores for 8X4 players within 10 minutes after the match. The rules worked fine. I can't control whether you use them correctly or know them well enough. Don't blame me for screw ups i have no control over.

[Cid Firefist]

crap apple omg you found teh conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!111111

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol this thread has gone way off topic...

[Rixsta]

The problem is people are quick to put the events/pub down, yet they wont say why, making it hard to change things, even when new events get hosted all you here is "this is lame...." at least try and explain why its "lame" that way it can get changed to make it better, it was the same with the freaky firday changes, you got nothing but cynicism... if people cared to even say why its bad/good it would help loads.

 

And i think most people forget that everyone that uses the zone can help make the changes if they want them, how long does it take to email telson about a new event? could even take a more active role like making Lvl's...

 

Was shown in part with Telson's post about new event idea's, dont think anyone had one good thing to say about anything... in fact it even went as far as people commenting how peoples ideas are copying... now how can we expect to get things changed if you dont want to explain why u want it to change, or what you want it to be changed to...

[Yupa]

what is lame???

 

THE CHANGE itself is lame

 

why is a change lame?

 

people don't like change

 

if they're in the zone, they like it already - if you change it, you're only -*BAD WORD*-ing with what they already liked

 

that and nobody lets the players know what they've changed, you just log into the zone one day and everything is -*BAD WORD*-ed - not a peep out of news.txt

[Delic]

Long.

 

There seems to be a difference of understanding in this debate. Some believe that the regular population voiced their complaints after the settings were changed' date=' and left as a result. The alternative viewpoint seems to be that the regular population started leaving (due to various factors), and that the change in settings re-established a player-base and thereby saved the zone.[/quote']

 

People always voiced their complaints, weather it was on the forum or in-game, but more people began complaining after Nurples started the changes (and yes, it was Nurples who made the first noticeable changes after EO and DW resigned).

The change that made more than half of the zone population leave was the map change, when Nurples uploaded #mummy without even asking what people thought about it.

Then they changed back to the previous map to see if people would come back, which they didn't.

After that, Zeke began changing all the ship settings.

Zeke said that he was only doing what he was told to do.

After awhile, the zone got more players.

And yes, some people say that Zeke saved the zone by changing the settings. That is ridiculous.

Those new players would've came regardless if what settings we had, because they were new players.

 

Several people measure the success of a zone solely by how entertaining it is. I would instead argue that the primary aim of a zone is growth' date=' with fun being a linked but ultimately secondary goal.[/quote']

 

That's just... silly.

How can a zone grow if it's not fun to play in it?

 

You have based that very long post on that fatally incorrect conclusion.

 

A zone will grow and have a stable core of players when it has a unique feel to it that can't be found anywhere else in SubSpace.

It will grow when the majority of its players are comfortable in it and are happy with staff.

A zone will begin to lose its core of players when it loses its originality.

 

...we will look at the old settings as they were before any changes took place (around 2 and a half years ago' date=' by my reckoning).[/quote']

 

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, SysOps changed the settings several times before Nurples came, but these were SysOps who knew what they were doing, most of the changes they made were for the better of the gameplay, these people had experience in the zone and they were involved with the community, UNLIKE Nurples and Zeke who just sat in spec and made changes without even consulting with the community, and instead asked a few close friends of theirs what they thought.

 

The map in this context was the old North / South map. Generally' date=' player levels (numbers) here were higher than that which we are currently experiencing, : growth was being sustained. Yet, despite previous arguments to the contrary, not all players were happy with settings: the weasel was one of the most debated issues, and regardless of the outsome of the debate (which is irrelevant to this argument), the fact that such an argument existed is proof that the old settings still presented problems and players did not see the settings as being perfect in terms of fun.[/quote']

 

I have never said that the old ship settings were perfect, I know that they weren't.

The only flaws were the weasel that should've been a fighter to complete with the javelin, and the spider burst that was too strong.

All other ships we had worked perfectly fine. They were balanced and took skills to master, and the best of all: they were original.

 

Second' date=' we will examine the old settings again, but post-change: in this case, the map used was exactly the same as the current map. Here, we see a decreasing number of players visiting the zone. As such, growth is not being sustained, and the need for change was obvious... (referring here to the constant map changing days)[/quote']

 

Those constant map changing days that you speak of were after Nurples and Zeke made their changes, and after #mummy was uploaded in pub.

The zone was doing fine before this, the gameplay was at its prime.

Naturally there were whiners back then too, it's not like everyone lived in harmony.

Complainers who whine without any having any really good reasons and grounds will always be here no matter what.

Nurples and Zeke listened to those whiners and newbified the zone.

 

Now' date=' even supposing that the entirety of the argument above is wrong, and that old settings are indeed better, or hold more potential than current settings, there remains the problem of majority opinion, in that the majority of our players are new. It would be logical to argue that most of the new players we have recieved and who are playing in the zone at this current moment only entered the zone in its phase of growth: that is, after the disasterous series of map changes that anteceded the development of our current settings. Therefore, it is evident that these new players who make up the bulk of our population have never seen or played old settings. How, then, can we state with such certainty that old settings are more suitable for the zone now?[/quote']

 

 

Why did newbies who had entered during the period (referring to the brief period in which pub was changed back to oldmap) in which we reverted back to old settings leave?

 

KEYWORDS: brief period.

They NEVER gave the old settings a chance. They were up again for less than a week and they expected the population to be at top again by then' date=' fools.

 

It seems clear to me' date=' then, that arguments about old settings being more suitable are unfounded and deceptive.[/quote']

 

I'll give you clear and honest reasons to why the old settings are more suitable.

 

First of all, they are original. You can't find any other gameplay as the 17th Parallel gameplay from the time before Nurples began his changes and after EO and DW resigned (that's my definition of old settings).

 

Secondly, they take more skills, therefor newbies will develop and get better at this game skill-wise by playing with them.

 

These two points are what made me proud to say that I was a player from 17th.

Now what do we have? Cripplied ships that any newbie can get good good at after a couple of weeks of playing, with a pub that doesn't have any stability at all, just a bunch of thrown-in elements (like full charge greens for example) placed randomly.

 

All in all I must admit that the new gameplay isn't as bad as I make it sound, because it could've ended up much worse, but then again, it could be so much better.

No, not just better for me, but for the zone as a whole because I have no doubt in my mind that this zone has the potential of being one of the best, most fun and popular zones in SubSpace, but we ain't going nowhere if we base everything we do on our current state and until some people start to realize and admit certain things.

 

Where the problem lies is in the uniqueness that is/was 17th Parallel. Every ship in the old settings was wildly different from the others' date=' and it worked as far as pub went. And because the jav's never been molested like the other ships, vets could have fun playing jav leagues and jav events. But that's sadly where the problem came in. The jav was the only way to move up beyond pub in the zone, to the heart of the zone.[/quote']

 

This could have been changed by creating events and leagues for the other ships.

You say that the other ships did not work in events, I say you must be smoking or drinking something

The only reason it didn't work was because no one tried to make it work, heh.

 

The ONLY way to make the zone recover forever is to design the zone this way:

 

1) A unique shipset where most/all ships can participate in 90% of zone leagues (except things like dueling tournaments)

 

2) A public map that doubles as a public league. Soccer may or may not be included.' date=' but whatever happens the one singular focus of the map should set us apart from other zones.

 

3) Well designed leagues with competent hosting

 

4) Better/More  Devteam Mappers.

 

5) Prayer[/quote']

 

I couldn't agree with you more on these points Vile.

Again, it's how we want to do things that seperates us

 

 

Just a quick timeline adjustment

 

zone = 100 pop

 

Elite One is head sysop with Dire Wolf right by his side. I ran dueling league' date=' while jim simultaneously ran the first season of jwl.

 

pop = 20

 

A few months later late fall/winter of the same year. Set were same as 100 population. Elite One, and Dire Wolf both resigned from their respective positions, along with a few other staffers. Zeke newly promoted to sysop, and I do believe Enterprise was head sysop. The zone had 20 players in it, on average, with no change in gameplay/setting/maps for over 8 months.[/quote']

 

You forget Nurples. Nurples was SysOp before Zeke wasn't he?

Nurples made the first changes after EO and DW resigned, before Zeke even was promoted if I'm not mistaken.

I don't know why you claim that there were no change in settings for over 8 months.. I remember that Nurples made his first change only a few months after he was promoted, which was making the shark drain energy when you turn on cloak/stealth, this without even asking anyone what they thought of it.

Then came KOTH and a lot of other changes.

Zeke was away for months shortly after being promoted if I remember correctly, I remember telling him on the old forum about the changes Nurples had made and he said he would fix them when he got back...

 

Zeke was a good man for doing what he did. If not for Zeke' date=' and the 17th staff at the time, we would not have a zone to argue over today.[/quote']

 

That's absurd. Zeke was only doing what he was told to do, that's what he said himself.

What he did, he did without consulting our community, without any testings and without informing us in any way.

He wasn't even bothered about the number of complaints he received about the changes he made.

 

I hate to talk like this about someone who isn't even here, but best believe it's the truth and I would've said it to his face if he was standing next to me.

 

Again I tell you, it wouldn't have made any difference if he hadn't changed the settings, we STILL would've had gotten all those new players.

What, you think that they read that Zeke had made some changes in "17th Parallel" and they all came here after that?

Bullshït man.

 

Zeke did not save this zone, nobody did.

 

If Nurples and Zeke had kept their fingers off of our settings we would've been much better off today

 

They didn't even think about what they were doing. They weren't even worried about the consequences of their actions. They made completely unnecessary modifications without even giving any reasons or explanation.

They were simply put, fools and should have never been given power to change anything.

 

I could say some more things with the zone owner as source but that would probably just lead me to trouble.

 

Do I agree that the current sets are the way to go? No' date=' I do not.

 

Can we go back to the old sets? No we can not.

 

The biggest issue is not the settings, its the map. We've had this same map, with one minor adjustment, for about 1 1/2 years. We need a new map, and then, with a new map, adjust the settings to work efficently with that map.[/quote']

 

What we needed in the first place was a new map, not new settings, a new good map that was based on the 17th Parallel gameplay, based on OUR SHIPS, the ships that could be called our own. Jim had one up for testing in ?go PubMap which received awesome feedback. A few days later they uploaded Mummy, without testing it publically at all.

 

I really don't know what else to say, we've gone through this so many times for so long.

It won't stop until we do something, present ideas and most importantly: communicate with eachother. Upperstaff/staff, newbs/wannabe-vets, vets/newbs, grapemen/piemen.