What is the incentive of joining a top tier Pro League squad?

[mindriot]

Just wondering what your opinions are guys.

 

I understand that everyone wants to move up and play in the big leagues, however... it does not seem like the top squads have any room for new players. You may have some room on the roster, but what about playing in actual games?

 

How can a new player assert themselves if the existing squad has a solid core they always use and rely on?

 

Does it feel good to win a championship if you only play in 5% to 10% of the games?

 

I built a squad with my pals and we won AML in our first season. That to me, feels better than riding the bench all season long.

 

So, what is the incentive? Wouldn't it feel better to earn the win? To really fight for it? Isn't that what this game is all about... playing it? 

 

What say you, men of pew?

[7th Saga]

I've found that it is most important to play with a team you enjoy to play with.  I've played on a number of squads and my last two I've noticed that I've enjoyed them the most due to active and fun players.  A lot of the time if you are new and recruited to a higher tier squad due to potential, you won't play in the big games, but you'll be able to play/practice with the squad and play against other teams.  The squads I've been on allowed newer players to play in a lot of games, but in the big time matches the best lineups are usually played.  Newer players earn the right to play in these lineups after showing great promise or sometimes when people are gone they are given a chance to shine.

 

I believe, for me, that it is more fun to play in those league matches, then to sit and get a free ride.  The championships that I've won have been because I've played in them and helped obtain them.  I may not be the best player ever, but I am fairly wise in ss strategy and play a good support role.  If I didn't play in these games, I think that the free ride to me would mean nothing, but that is my opinion.

 

 

~7th, 7th Saga, Solartonix, Thundaga

[Bargeld]

Not that we were notable winners of any title this season (except Pryde himself, woo!) But this was the scenario for Dropships last season. We had a FULL roster, and even ran out of room with the desire to add another player in the middle of the season (they were going to remove 1 of 2 inactives on the roster to do it, but then rules and stuff happened).

 

I was one of the top 5 most actively practicing players, but unfortunately, my badass style of winning is inconsistent, so when game day came around, I was usually there for moral support or as 1st or 2nd sub. I managed to participate in 2 games (partially) and win one completely solo (I was the only player who showed during a bye round against a dropout squad in an early game... but hey, I was there to represent!)

 

This season, the roster is even deeper with at least 4 new players to the 'dropships' team. So far, we've split the roster into 2 squads, basically A and B teams... final rosters to be determined further down the road. I was placed on the B team due to real life happenings that will limit my amount of time playing and attendance for weekend games. Subject to change as things change in life and in the way matches are scheduled.

 

End thoughts about participation and winning and playing and benching... I think having a full roster of active players waiting/hoping to play each weekend is a waste. I think that a squad should be built around 5 core players that are willing to commit to playing the season. If you have a core player that isn't willing to commit or practice, etc. then they shouldn't be counted in that 5, nor should they be played during match time if the rest of the core of 5 is present.

 

I don't get into the stats part of the game, but I would say that the only reason to have a full roster of 12 is to bulk up the pracstats, allowing the 'squad' to prac much more often. Unfortunately, none of that practice is beneficial on game day, when the line-up is completely different. Sure the prac helps the lower and mid end players to hone their skills, but the actual core squad players really need to be practicing as the game day lineup, otherwise it's just playing for playing's sake.

 

With what I described about dropships and the changes so far this season, and the play time I saw last season, I decided that it just didn't matter to me. I login during the week and I just want to play. Alpha is gone, chaos pub is dead, and the only SVS left with the people I know is 4v4 league, so I remain rostered just to be able to pew pew at all. Without being rostered and at least playing with people that I know and have fun with, I would be left with capping random teams or hoping to get a spot at 11pm on some team with a suicider that never logs off.

 

If you are seriously into league and stats and winning... nothing that I just said means anything to you

[Marioman]

When I transitioned from a non-proleague squad to proleague I did it because I was unsatisfied with my squad's (alpha reunion) activity at the time and also because I wanted to learn from the best since I was new to 4v4 and svs. Another nice benefit was the tougher competition and higher expectations inside and outside of the squad.

Also a big part is, for me personally, I don't enjoy spaceships as much if i'm playing poorly or with/against other poorly performing players.

[Arctos]

To me it has always been who you get to prac with and share the experience of a title race. Sadly and selfishly I want to play with people who are similar and who understands teamwork and not alot of new players fit that criteria. I think that's beacuse new players who are mostly familiar with mixed pracs have a much harder time learning the intricate side of 4v4 and also the opportunities to improve are too few and too far apart. There are a few low-to-mid-tier squads who puts in the hard work and are nursering talent, like Discombobulate and Dropships last season for example and the future of 4v4 would be grim without these squads forming.

 

Having said that it doesn't take a top-tier squad, and I have enjoyed the struggle to form a competitive team from scratch (I have been part of starting more new squads than I can remember), but having played for so long, and most if not all the players on the top squads are seasoned veterans, sometimes you just want to be able to jump in and play and know that your teammates can perform, so I understand the people who ride the bench just to be able to play with their peers.

[Joe Jr.]

Laugh, this r-tard has been playing since '96. I'd ride pine to win a championship at this stage of my game. I'd consider myself an average player in subspace and I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never be as good as nillerk, Big Mac, krellin, etc, etc.... My goal is to not choke and blow game/pracs. If you check my .pracstats you'd see I'm very rarely first out and I take pride in that. In hopes to "ride pine" I joined Dropships so they can carry me to a SS Championship.

[mindriot]

Laugh, this r-tard has been playing since '96. I'd ride pine to win a championship at this stage of my game. I'd consider myself an average player in subspace and I've come to terms with the fact that I'll never be as good as nillerk, Big Mac, krellin, etc, etc.... My goal is to not choke and blow game/pracs. If you check my .pracstats you'd see I'm very rarely first out and I take pride in that. In hopes to "ride pine" I joined Dropships so they can carry me to a SS Championship.

 

I'm really confused by your response Joe. It sounds like you think it was written about you. Can you please clarify why you called me a retard?

 

Are you currently dosing on a heavy amount of hallucinogenic drugs? 

[Bargeld]

He means himself.

[mindriot]

To me it has always been who you get to prac with and share the experience of a title race. Sadly and selfishly I want to play with people who are similar and who understands teamwork and not alot of new players fit that criteria. I think that's beacuse new players who are mostly familiar with mixed pracs have a much harder time learning the intricate side of 4v4 and also the opportunities to improve are too few and too far apart. There are a few low-to-mid-tier squads who puts in the hard work and are nursering talent, like Discombobulate and Dropships last season for example and the future of 4v4 would be grim without these squads forming.

 

Having said that it doesn't take a top-tier squad, and I have enjoyed the struggle to form a competitive team from scratch (I have been part of starting more new squads than I can remember), but having played for so long, and most if not all the players on the top squads are seasoned veterans, sometimes you just want to be able to jump in and play and know that your teammates can perform, so I understand the people who ride the bench just to be able to play with their peers.

 

 

Thanks for your response Arc, I think you and 7th made some excellent points. It is very frustrating to play with players that don't know what they are doing after years of play. I still think the joy of overcoming personal and team challenges to win a game feels better than getting a free ride. I am especially looking forward to next season as I believe there may be a few surprising and interesting up and coming squads to make a mark. 

[mindriot]

He means himself.

 

Oh, haha. Joe, you are not a retard by any stretch of the imagination. 

[Joe Jr.]

 

 

He means himself.

Oh, haha. Joe, you are not a retard by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Joe Jr.

[Street]

Good question mindriot.

 

That's why we'll never know who really are the best players in this game. It's easy to play with other top players.

 

I don't remember the last time a top 10 or 15 player joined a weaker squad and tried to carry it for a season (and show that he really is a top player).

[mindriot]

Good question mindriot.

 

That's why we'll never know who really are the best players in this game. It's easy to play with other top players.

 

I don't remember the last time a top 10 or 15 player joined a weaker squad and tried to carry it for a season (and show that he really is a top player).

 

 

That's exactly the point I was driving at. Concentrating all the "best" players together in the same squads usually produces the same results. Oh gee, will it be Assassins, or the Outlaws next season? I'm on the edge of my seat with anticipation... Not.

 

Most players on these squads will stay on until the wheel's fall off. I was actually happy to see Critical Mass come back for another season. I think that squad proved that you don't have to ride the pine or stay on a top tier squad to be competitive. 

 

I'd love to see more of that occur as I think it creates a new and more interesting dynamic. 

Edited August 18, 2014 by mindriot

[develop]

I've found that it is most important to play with a team you enjoy to play with.  I've played on a number of squads and my last two I've noticed that I've enjoyed them the most due to active and fun players.  A lot of the time if you are new and recruited to a higher tier squad due to potential, you won't play in the big games, but you'll be able to play/practice with the squad and play against other teams.  The squads I've been on allowed newer players to play in a lot of games, but in the big time matches the best lineups are usually played.  Newer players earn the right to play in these lineups after showing great promise or sometimes when people are gone they are given a chance to shine.

 

I believe, for me, that it is more fun to play in those league matches, then to sit and get a free ride.  The championships that I've won have been because I've played in them and helped obtain them.  I may not be the best player ever, but I am fairly wise in ss strategy and play a good support role.  If I didn't play in these games, I think that the free ride to me would mean nothing, but that is my opinion.

 

 

~7th, 7th Saga, Solartonix, Thundaga

^ and stuff

[Street]

Don't get me wrong dev, I'm not talking about players that have been on those squads for the last 5 years. I'm talking about the unnecessary stacking.

 

The top squads are 10-12 deep, while maybe 5-6 players get the playing time they should be getting.

 

Imagine if 2 of those players from each of top squads who don't play as much as they should, joined backarrow, cosmic rift, llamas, ego and sfe. There would be 5 squads with great lineups + 5 that could actually put up a fight on any given weekend.

 

So, my question is: wouldn't it be way better to have 4 really interesting matches every week than 1 or max 2 that we have atm?

[Joe Jr.]

I agree with Street.. The way it is now is unhealthy for our game.

[Fresh New Beats]

so... salary caps? 

[Pryde]

Can i be worth 1 dollar?

[Joe Jr.]

Pryde $4

Joe Jr. $1

[Joe Jr.]

But in all seriousness, caps would be sweet but with all the aliases it'd be impossible to assign the appropriate worth to each pilot.

[SurrEZy]

For me it's not about the quality of the squad, it's the people I play with. That's why I've generally recruited to my own squad people I enjoy playing with. 

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong dev, I'm not talking about players that have been on those squads for the last 5 years. I'm talking about the unnecessary stacking.

 

The top squads are 10-12 deep, while maybe 5-6 players get the playing time they should be getting.

 

Imagine if 2 of those players from each of top squads who don't play as much as they should, joined backarrow, cosmic rift, llamas, ego and sfe. There would be 5 squads with great lineups + 5 that could actually put up a fight on any given weekend.

 

So, my question is: wouldn't it be way better to have 4 really interesting matches every week than 1 or max 2 that we have atm?

 

 

I kind of disagree with you here.  I wouldn't be that interested in having a couple top players join the lower tier squads. That would most likely cut the playing time for those who enjoy the game and want to play against others at their level (yes they play the top squads, but come playoffs they still have a shot at winning a title in aml and getting playing time).  I would however be more than happy to see some of the top guys break off to form their own squad and make Pro more competitive. Most of the top squads have 14 rostered but really only play ~ 8 players ever. What if 2 or 3 players decided to join 2 or 3 players from another top squad and form their own squad? That would be a lot more interesting. That would keep the AML pool from being diluted with players too skilled and make PRO a lot more fun and competitive. It would also give more chance for other players currently in the above AML but not quite top notch PRO to move up to more competitive games as well.

[Street]

I just think most ppl would agree to having 10 competitive matches in a season, rather than 3.

[Ozn]

Unfortunately this whole discussion hinges on players changing their personality/behavior. That's a losing battle. It's silly to assume that top players would be complacent with playing on a weaker team just to appease the population. An individual who is competitive at heart naturally expects a level of quality from the individuals they surround themselves with. If they end up on a team that doesn't fulfill that expectation then they will look elsewhere. A top player on a very weak team just becomes a glass cannon. It's like watching an olympic sprinter pass the baton to Xena. That's just how it is and I doubt there is much that can be done to remedy that. Human nature. Competitive people want more out of who they surround themselves with.

 

However, instead of saying "No this won't work" I will give a suggestion. Focus on your core team and figure out what the problem is - and fix it. What's your teamwork like? What's missing from it? Does your lineups consist of the right kind of players? You can't just create a team with a ragtag crew and expect that quality players will flock to your team or you will be successful. You have to generate some level of allure because any quality player can see potential if you've properly displayed it...and if they're available there's a solid chance they will join.

 

I don't think I have to point out how drastically things have changed for us on Critical Mass - but I will anyway. At our core most of us played on Aenima, Thor and Requiem together YEARS before we got traction. Beforehand we didn't really put a substantial amount of thought into lineups, teamwork or much of anything. I think it's safe to say - because of that we hovered around at being a mid-level team. After improving as a team and figuring out what the problems were we had the opportunity to display our teamwork capabilities on Requiem. Subsequently we formed Critical Mass and were able to attract some quality players that were an integral part of us making it to the finals.

 

So with all that said I would sincerely suggest that you stand in front of the mirror and ask what you can do to create a better team. Don't just expect a top player to materialize and solve all your problems because it won't happen.

[Bargeld]

At our core most of us played on Aenima, Thor and Requiem together YEARS before we got traction. Beforehand we didn't really put a substantial amount of thought into lineups, teamwork or much of anything. I think it's safe to say - because of that we hovered around at being a mid-level team. After improving as a team and figuring out what the problems were we had the opportunity to display our teamwork capabilities on Requiem. Subsequently we formed Critical Mass and were able to attract some quality players that were an integral part of us making it to the finals.

 

So with all that said I would sincerely suggest that you stand in front of the mirror and ask what you can do to create a better team. Don't just expect a top player to materialize and solve all your problems because it won't happen.

 

That first paragraph sounds like your team practiced for years worked out a bunch of stuff and got better. Then you attracted a couple really good players that had nothing to do with the previous YEARS of coming together as a team, and those couple guys were integral to your progress to the finals.

 

Just seems like the messages conflict with each other.

[Ozn]

 

At our core most of us played on Aenima, Thor and Requiem together YEARS before we got traction. Beforehand we didn't really put a substantial amount of thought into lineups, teamwork or much of anything. I think it's safe to say - because of that we hovered around at being a mid-level team. After improving as a team and figuring out what the problems were we had the opportunity to display our teamwork capabilities on Requiem. Subsequently we formed Critical Mass and were able to attract some quality players that were an integral part of us making it to the finals.

 

So with all that said I would sincerely suggest that you stand in front of the mirror and ask what you can do to create a better team. Don't just expect a top player to materialize and solve all your problems because it won't happen.

 

That first paragraph sounds like your team practiced for years worked out a bunch of stuff and got better. Then you attracted a couple really good players that had nothing to do with the previous YEARS of coming together as a team, and those couple guys were integral to your progress to the finals.

 

Just seems like the messages conflict with each other.

 

 

No. In simple words I said we were a mid-level team that figured out our problems, fixed them and was able to develop the allure necessary to attract more quality players. I also said we spent years not playing as a team, not strategizing and just doing whatever we wanted. Finally we said enough is enough and focused on those things in order to develop a better team. There's nothing conflicting there.

 

My message is....if you're a low-to-mid level team you need to find a way to demonstrate some level of competence and potential in order to attract quality players. You can't just enter league with the mindset that no effort is needed to be successful or to attract better players.