Semi-turf style flagging - please read both sides of the debate before making a decision!

[Psythe]

I'll probably need SpiderNL to chime in ifor this thread, he knows the details of this idea better than I do. I just figured it's about time ot haven an organized discussion about it all.

 

Basically, there may be a "turf" style flagging gametype implemented into the zone. For the most part, this isn't going to affect basing, but who knows - that's why this thread is here.

 

In this new gametype, there would be approximately 5 flags distributated evenly throughout each base. The jackpot reward would be based more on, "Which team did better," as opposed to "which team overwhemled the other, first."

 

I'm completely for this change. I think it has a lot of potential.

 

This thread is here for a more organized and extensive discussion for the new concept. We've got plenty of time to brainstorm. Please let us know any ideas you come across to make the system better.

[Psythe]

This is a very simple example of how flagging will work by the time this "turf" system is implemented. Spider can fill in on the details, such as why there are stationary flags, and how that will affect the jackpot and other rewards.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/KxU1q.png

 

Sorry if this image comes out huge; I was expecting it to re-size and be zoom-able.

[DarkmoD]

¨Sounds fun, maybe a change for HS will be good..

[Samapico]

Your example is bad, we can't even reach the flag room!

[spidernl]

There are a few ways to do the actual system. My initial idea was to have a set number of "dings", that is to say, for a set period, teams would be rewarded depending on the number of flags held. At the end of this period, teams would be shuffled and a new base for the next game would be (randomly) selected.

 

A few players, however, noted that the current sense of urgency would be gone, which is a valid point. Therefore, I thought of a new system: grant teams points for the number of flags held every ding instead. Whichever team makes it to a certain amount of points first wins a jackpot - more similar to the current system.

 

The latter system lacks an inherent advantage of the first, however, in that multiple payouts per game would reward those who played longest more. On the other hand, the jackpot for the second system could be individual, too, perhaps based on time spent and even "effectiveness" (damage done and such).

 

DISCUSS!

Edited January 14, 2013 by spidernl

[Jareth]

I don't think that it is a very good idea. It seems like a system that promotes flanking based flagging.

 

I think that it will just lead to disorganized flagging. The current system is very simple and it is still too hard for most of the players to organize. They will join in any ship they feel like playing and play however they want.

 

Introducing the need for constant flanking will just make things way worse. People complain about flanking enough as it is.

[»D1st0rt]

automate the flag control module

[cxc]

For turf style you would need multiple entrances to the base.  

 

Base would be more like a snake where can enter thru mouth or tail, and flag room if any would be in middle.

 

death star battle did it well, bad thing with the death star is it was way to big (had to turn all 100 flags to yellow to win).  It had 4 entrances, 2 main entrances that arrived in center, and 1 far away from the action but still easy to use, and one very narrow and long on a 45 degree angle with blinking walls that was almost impossible to get into even if no one else was in the zone.

 

But base layout has a lot to do with zone population, if have big pop then one entrance is horrible.  And if small pop need one entrance.

 

Trench wars has implemented tihs: it has 1 entrance when zone population is low, and changes to multi entrances when pop is high.

[spidernl]

For turf style you would need multiple entrances to the base.  

Please explain why.

[Cheese]

 if have big pop then one entrance is horrible.  And if small pop need one entrance.

try reading

[spidernl]

That's not an explanation why turf needs multiple-entranced bases. I could make the same statement about any other kind of basing and it'd make as much (or little) sense.

[»D1st0rt]

automate the flag control module

 

seriously guys, movable turf flags.

[Cheese]

my c flags module does that i think

[Samapico]

For turf style you would need multiple entrances to the base.  

 

Base would be more like a snake where can enter thru mouth or tail, and flag room if any would be in middle.

 

death star battle did it well, bad thing with the death star is it was way to big (had to turn all 100 flags to yellow to win).  It had 4 entrances, 2 main entrances that arrived in center, and 1 far away from the action but still easy to use, and one very narrow and long on a 45 degree angle with blinking walls that was almost impossible to get into even if no one else was in the zone.

 

But base layout has a lot to do with zone population, if have big pop then one entrance is horrible.  And if small pop need one entrance.

 

Trench wars has implemented tihs: it has 1 entrance when zone population is low, and changes to multi entrances when pop is high.

TW is basically 1 flag room... so yeah, it has multiple entrances. But the idea here is to quantify the progress of a team advancing through a base with a number of flags. Both teams are still fighting to get to the flag room, and the defenders will still try to stop the enemy from entering the base to keep all flags. Except, as the attacking team advances through the base, they will start collecting a part of the dings. There will still be ad/cloak sneaky ships that will leak through, but instead of stealing flags, they'll just capture them.

 

I think most HS gameplay will remain the same, we don't need to completely re-imagine the base concepts... Though I'm guessing the bases might be focused to concentrate fights around those flags.

[cxc]

If want to keep it similar to how it is played now i suggest having 1 mobile flag.  In order to win, would need to drop the flag in the fr like you do today, plus turn all the turf flags in base to your side. 

 

So not only do you need to drop the flag in the flag room, you must also push other team out of the base completely and keep them out in order to win.

 

What ever base the mobile flag is in decides what turf flags are active.

Edited January 15, 2013 by cxc

[Cheese]

u can also modify the time after the flag is dropped before a jackpot win to a very long value so they have to sit in that base for something like 5 or 10 mins

[cxc]

I would also like to see turf flags in center and maybe area 8.

 

The center flags would go with balling.  Right now when you ball your team gets a reward, and the jp boosted.

 

In a turfing setup i think it should be changed so that the baller gets a reward, the rest of the reward would go to teams that had turf flags, plus the normal jp boost.  So in center would have conflicting intrests.

 

I think the turf flags should be in mini bases in center, and the number of mini bases open would be based on population.  The higher the pop the more turf flags that are in play.

 

Also the ball itself should only spawn if the flag is in c. once the flag has been taken out of center ball should no longer spawn.

[spidernl]

I'm already planning to change balling, mostly centered around killing people with the ball to up its 'value' and then scoring to cash in.

 

I do not however agree with people here who feel this is a drastic change that requires very different bases. The reasoning for having multiple flags is that both flagging teams could hold a number of flags, making it worthwhile to keep going. Right now - even if teams are competitive - it's game over if all the flags are (nearly) dropped and the defenders hold most of the base. Can't really blame people for giving up at that point.

 

And yes, I'm aware of the fact that spreading out flags will stimulate teams clearing eachother or flanking to hold as many flags as possible. I don't see that as a bad thing. The fact that this stimulates people to use every tool at their disposal to destroy the enemy team as effectively as possible is positive, in my book.

 

If there are glaring imbalances that make it so that a team using all the tools available to it is unstoppable, then those imbalances are present right now, too. If anything that demonstrates the current system's weaknesses. Teams are stimulated to try "just enough" to make as much money as possible. Instead, they should have to try as hard as they possibly can if they want to cash in the maximum amount of cash per unit of time.

Edited January 15, 2013 by spidernl

[cxc]

I think it will be good, but you will need to nerf transwarp key.

 

Making it sig may do the trick.

Edited January 15, 2013 by cxc

[Psythe]

I think most HS gameplay will remain the same, we don't need to completely re-imagine the base concepts... Though I'm guessing the bases might be focused to concentrate fights around those flags.

 

Very true. The flag locations will be kind of like "boss battles," in a sense - you'll have to try a particular tactic or just try harder in general to overtake that boss (the flag) in order to move on through the game. There are many many different ways to make the flag "slots / obelisks / holding cells" provide a different challenge. However, I still want to give players the ability to cheese their way into claiming control of a flag... just not quite as cheesy as it is with our current system (accidental flagger deaths, thor spam, etc.)

 

Teams are stimulated to try "just enough" to make as much money as possible. Instead, they should have to try as hard as they possibly can if they want to cash in the maximum amount of cash per unit of time.

 

That's right. That's why I'm going to start creating bases that are "tighter" and a little more defense-oriented (to a reasonable extent). Lancs need to actually TRY to live. Rushers need to have more than one tactic for attacking the enemy (alternate routes, and other tactics that these new bases will provide). Flagging has become too automatic. I'm trying to bring back a way to reward skill and effort as much as I can.

 

While we're talking about automatic: That thing where the turf-flag module will "decide" which base gets the highest reward. This is awesome because it forces diversity in basing, but its downfall is that it eliminates choice (I want to get rid of the automatic part of flagging). Obviously, having each base have its own jackpot, some high, some medium, and some low, still allows choice, but I'm wondering if there's any way at all to make it all seem less automatic. This is where I'm stumped. Automatic is boring. Choice is what makes this game fun.

 

---

 

But that's enough about how the bases will be. We need to keep thinking of ways to make turf-style flagging in HS very fun.

 

I think it was cxc (?) who mentioned having a flag timer of 30 minutes, and you get +1 minute toward your 30 minute cap every flag ding, per flag held. So if you hold all five flags, you win the game quicker. That seems like a great way to keep the attacking team on their feet - as long as the attackers are doing something, the longer it will take for the defenders to win it. And, I'm sure there are other ways to "weaken" the defenders in order to encourage people to not ragequit.

[»D1st0rt]

But that's enough about how the bases will be. We need to keep thinking of ways to make turf-style flagging in HS very fun.

 

I think it was cxc (?) who mentioned having a flag timer of 30 minutes, and you get +1 minute toward your 30 minute cap every flag ding, per flag held. So if you hold all five flags, you win the game quicker. 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there was a working gametype similar to this in 2008, it just had to be manually hosted every time. The primary mechanism behind it was even released publicly in 2009.

[cxc]

Turf can be very similar to how we play now if we have 1 mobile flag. And then in each base have 8 stationary turf flags.

 

Everything can work same as it is now, all 9 flags need to be yellow and then get a 100 sec timmer to win (having a 100 second count down graphic would be good).

 

The 1 mobile flag will still be dropped like normal in the flag room and the other 8 flags in base will need to be toggled by driving over them.

 

The base where the mobile flag is, is the base you play in.  There would be no more flag spliting (cant split 1 flag), of course the mobile flag could be moved to a new base and then that will be the new base to fight in.

Edited January 16, 2013 by cxc

[»D1st0rt]

If you want to do it that way, it might be more interesting to use the powerball than a single flag because you can't hold onto it for very long and would have to keep passing it around.

[Unix]

I would imagine the best way to keep the 8 sectors, plus make it so flanking or running is an issue, but at the same time keep the basing style the same would be to have one large base winding through the 8 sectors, with turf flags sprawled throughout in a certain area. Similar to how DSB does it, but on a much larger scale. 

 

The warp gates would still be vital, as it could lead to outside bombing, fielding, thorring, etc. At the same time, this style of base has already been tested and has been successfully implemented (when sectors 4/5 was one large base). 

 

The key to this is that if you want to control the flags, you would need to send one or two players on defense to turn the flags, especially the ones deeper in the base. At the same time, since this is "turf" flags, if the attacking team can push in, they can also receive flag dings, depending on where they are in the base. 

 

Flanking will still be an issue, and if anything wont be as large of an issue, unless you're worried about losing control of the flags. If you're halfway through the base, you might start to lose flags due to a flanker. 

[Psythe]

I would imagine the best way to keep the 8 sectors, plus make it so flanking or running is an issue, but at the same time keep the basing style the same would be to have one large base winding through the 8 sectors, with turf flags sprawled throughout in a certain area. Similar to how DSB does it, but on a much larger scale. 

 

The warp gates would still be vital, as it could lead to outside bombing, fielding, thorring, etc. At the same time, this style of base has already been tested and has been successfully implemented (when sectors 4/5 was one large base). 

 

The key to this is that if you want to control the flags, you would need to send one or two players on defense to turn the flags, especially the ones deeper in the base. At the same time, since this is "turf" flags, if the attacking team can push in, they can also receive flag dings, depending on where they are in the base. 

 

Flanking will still be an issue, and if anything wont be as large of an issue, unless you're worried about losing control of the flags. If you're halfway through the base, you might start to lose flags due to a flanker. 

 

If I remember correctly, Dr Brain wants flagging in Hyperspace to happen quickly, in terms of how often flag games happen, and how quickly they end. We don't need a super-base that would take forever to navigate through. And I agree completely with that concept.

 

This kind of thing would work very well as an event, though.