The future of Phoenix and Windows

[Vidiot_X]

Hi I just thought I would mention that Phoenix "will" run on Windows 8 (as it does on Win 7).

 

But after Windows 8, I will not be supporting Windows as a target for development, just as are many of my fellow indie developers are starting to do. As you may know starting with Windows 8 MS will be following the Mac model for a closed development OS. This means that eventually all programs and apps will have to be certified by MS and sold through the Windows Store with a 30% fee for the privilege.

 

This for many this was 'the last straw' and has begun to drive many indie developers off toward Linux as it is now the only viable open development OS (kernel) on the planet. Steam/Valve is now testing it's Linux version in limited beta and is very serious about Linux as the next OS for them. Their business model (and many others) is now in direct conflict with MS and they really have no choice, just as many of us indie developers. Truly, MS has finally, for good or bad started a fundamental shift in the way the OS scene is playing out. In my 25 years of developing I have never seen such a developer backlash against MS and to some extent Apple.

 

So Phoenix will run on Windows XP-Windows 8, but the future is Linux.

 

- Rich -

[Dr Brain]

As you may know starting with Windows 8 MS will be following the Mac model for a closed development OS. This means that eventually all programs and apps will have to be certified by MS and sold through the Windows Store with a 30% fee for the privilege.

 

Link?

[Lone Outlaw]

Hey Linux is better, finally i can get rid of Microsoft, hope they go through with their plans.

[Vidiot_X]

@Dr. Brain,

 

Off the top of my head: http://www.wired.com...pers-windows-8/

 

Any Metro/Modern UI app can "only" be sold through the Windows store. To be sure Windows 8 is the "foot in the door" approach to changing to Apples model. Most developers feel that MS will completely close off open development in the next version of Windows after Windows 8, but MS has not officially stated that. Windows 8 for many represents the beginning of the end for open development for MS Windows.

 

Time is going to tell what will happen here. Maybe MS will have a change of heart based on the response to Windows 8, but I'm inclined to think MS is fully invested in their strategy and unlikely to change their course.

 

- Rich -

[Vidiot_X]

Another interesting link: http://www.w3schools.com/Browsers/browsers_os.asp

 

I'll be keeping an eye on browser visits and the OS statistics. It's interesting desktop OS visits for Linux are up to 5% closing on Mac at 8.7% as of August this year. I'm anxious to see if November-January numbers show a bump for Linux because of Windows 8.

[Cheese]

thats the main reason i dont do anything for apple, dont develop anything for apple, dont buy anything from apple, and tell people not to buy from apple

 

i hope theyll rethink their market share before they lose their 40-50%

[Dr Brain]

Good enough reason to dislike the windows store, but the same isn't true of the whole OS. Microsoft isn't stupid enough to throw away their one advantage in the OS world, though. It's only the decades worth of legacy programs that keep them on top.

[Lone Outlaw]

"But some developers think Microsoft should have made this move a long time ago. Apple, they say, got it right with the App Store. There’s no reason Microsoft shouldn’t follow suit."

 

Lol apple is an idiot in every aspect, im glad steve jobs died. i don't even get why all the news and americans worshipped the ass hat. All the App store did was make phone jacking possible, you can just bypass apple, and download anything you want on your phone. IF i did ever have a phone, it would never be one from apple.

 

“Having a big entity deciding which applications are kosher and which are not, that self-regulation mechanism is lost, and everyone (coders and users) are in a way in the hands of Microsoft, which is not a pleasant thought at all,” says Bernal. “What I think Microsoft doesn’t get is the fact that openness of that ecosystem has been its best asset. Anyone could code and release an application and the market would itself decide about its quality.”

 

Lol good one, we need people tell us which programs are approved now.. what is this back to communism? That song isn't approved, you can't listen to it. Or are we back to 1920's America, where the rich looked down on everyone else, because they weren't approved.. this is dumb.

 

‘While it may somewhat reduce the openness and the choice for the user, it also reduces the risk of viruses and malware, for which Windows is also known for.’ — Benedikt Lehner

 

How come Linux isn't known for viruses? i guess because no one develops viruses for it even? People get viruses because they are morons. It has nothing to do with program development.

 

 

"To be clear, the Windows Store doesn’t eliminate the open ecosystem — developers can still make software for Windows 8 desktop mode and sell it through their own sites and other channels. But most consumers won’t look for software distributed independently,"

 

You can still make programs, but essentially they head towards what they want, slowly, so people are less outraged with this, and then later on they will go all the way and ban any programs not approved. That's what hitler did too. He started persecuting the Jews slowly. It started with ID cards, not gas chambers.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Vidiot_X]

@DR. Brain,

 

It is true that you can still run non-Modern UI application on Windows 8 but MS is hardcore about it's Mac envy. The number one instant change to Windows 8 that everyone is employing is adding back the 'start menu' and 'task bar'. IMHO there is only one reason to disable this feature in Windows 8. That is to channel users into the metro/modern UI. The gut feeling that most long-term developers have is that MS will in fact close the development path. MS, under Ballmer is clearly taking a new path despite the objections of users and developers and by Ballmer's own words defining a new era for the PC.

 

Myself and others are at the very least hedging our bet's with Linux. MS and Mac are both on a path to a tightly controlled OS and market for products that run on their OS's. Shifting from 30 years or more of open development to a monopoly that opens a revenue stream irresistible to MS. In a sense the writing is on the wall (to borrow a biblical metaphor) and this is not wasted on major developers for MS as they start to nudge customers toward an alternative OS's like Linux.

 

Today's Linux is leaps and bounds above where is was just five years ago, with efforts Like Ubuntu and debian making it much easier and friendlier to install. So I am hopeful for Linux and as we move forward I hope it becomes the next open development path.

 

- Rich -

[Dr Brain]

I believe that MS will not ditch their sole advantage in the OS world. Because the legacy "open" programs are their monopoly. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot trying to turn PCs into tablets, and they're setting themselves up for a new Vista moment, but that won't last more than one OS generation.

 

I'm very familiar with Linux. I ran Linux exclusively for a couple of years, before switching back to Windows exclusively.

 

I guess all I'm really saying is that if you want to support multiple OSes, then that's great. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. Speculating that MS is going to commit corporate suicide in 5 years is not "the right reason".

[»Lynx]

My main question is, are you going to be selling the Phoenix client? If so, then you can expect a 30% fee for using a service that is provided to you to gain more exposure to your `customers' which is of a high standard, which has millions of users. If you're not intending to charge for Phoenix, then they can't take a 30% cut of nothing, and you will just need to pay whatever the membership / developer / license fees are (last I checked, around 100USD?) which compared to the benefits of more exposure, is a relatively small price.

 

However, both Apple and Windows don't "demand" that you have your software in their stores; you're free to distribute using your own channels however you will not get the benefits of their distribution centres (trusted signing, updates, reviews, exposure and so on).

 

As for the software not appearing in the Metro UI unless you pay... I have doubts. Mainly, because it's a Wired link and Wired reporters are generally not the brightest crayons in the pack, but secondly because I can see this getting cracked / hacked / modified beyond belief, and as Dr. Brain said; because this kind of behaviour seems like corporate suicide for Microsoft.

 

I can expect it from Apple; they're targeting a different corner of the market, but not Microsoft.

 

However, I'm now exclusively Linux (although I am thinking of ordering one of the new Retina MBPs) so it's not too big a deal in my eyes. If they do implement this, and Linux gets some damn needed updates I'll be a happier guy. ;-P

 

Good luck!

[Dav]

I believe that MS will not ditch their sole advantage in the OS world. Because the legacy "open" programs are their monopoly. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot trying to turn PCs into tablets, and they're setting themselves up for a new Vista moment, but that won't last more than one OS generation.

 

I'm very familiar with Linux. I ran Linux exclusively for a couple of years, before switching back to Windows exclusively.

 

I guess all I'm really saying is that if you want to support multiple OSes, then that's great. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. Speculating that MS is going to commit corporate suicide in 5 years is not "the right reason".

 

Thing is this is only true for the x86 based systems. Windows RT will not be able to run legacy applications (including subspace). I also dislike this model, its the main reason my phone is android and not windows phone. Does the windows store not have freeware apps though? or were you planning to make it paid?

[Vidiot_X]

Hi

 

I have always planned to release Phoenix on multiple platforms so developing for Linux is something I had planed all along. I will try to reach as many platforms as I can for as long as I can. The biggest sticking point for me (aside from above) is MS and Apple are now controling the content of an application as well as other aspects. Control is bad for inovation and development in so many ways. The certification process is a huge limiting factor and a huge hassle. Really the issues we are discussing here are going to take place over years and what will ultmatly will play out is bad for open developers. So as long as I can, I will support Windows until it's just not fiesable. Personally I rail at MS and Apple's closed systems, it's just wrong. I would add that MS is bent on gaining control and revenue, what some may see as suicide others will see as evolution.

 

Phoenix will be "FREE" to play. So, there should be no worries about that. If I need to make money it will be through advetising or some such accepted method. I would rather at some point seek donations but only after the game is firmly in beta. I live on a fixed income and the expense of purchasing hardware (to support those platforms) and other resorces is taxing, but hopfuly that will all work itself out. The only control I will enforce is on the servers as this is the backbone of the game it terms of technology. Probably somthing along the lines of a use agreement to avoid misuse.

 

So my point about MS is times are changing and MS and Apple are trending toward closed, regulated and consumer costly systems. I believe in open development and the freedom to control my own content.

 

- Rich -