Steam's greenlight program

[julia]

Hi, pretty sure next to nobody on this forum knows who I am. I'm a mod in EG, currently playing under the alias Siren (formerly as julia). Not sure if that's even important, but whatever. Onto what I actually came here to say...

 

You guys here on the ss.co forums seem to be in the know about what has been going on with the ssc and what steps have been taken to bringing new blood into the game. I know a while back someone from the ssc (polix?) was in contact with people from Valve trying to get the Continuum client listed on steam and were unfortunately denied. I had a couple questions regarding this:

 

1. What was the reason behind Continuum's denial? Was it IP licensing issues? Or something more practical like access to the client source code? No commercial backing? Unclear ownership issues?

 

2. I understand the last attempt to deal with Steam was done so before their release of the "greenlight" program. Has anyone attempted to resubmit Continuum as a candidate for this new program? If not, is it worth attempting again?

 

3. I understand there are a couple new games in development by members of this community inspired by subspace, and I have a couple questions for them.

 

a) How close do your games mimic subspace currents ability? Could we recreate zones like EG and TW easily? Or are we stuck with stock settings of the dev's choose?

 

Third party zone owners? Will people eventually be able to host/run their own zones? I only ask as a lead in to my next question:

 

c)I know the java ss client has a working alpha out that (at least aesthetically) seems to mirror subspace well enough, I haven't tried it personally, just watched a few videos etc... Have far into development is this? Anywhere close to a finished product? If so, do you think there is a possibility for zone owners to come together to agree to move games/clients again? If so, would it then be worth it to submit a browser game to Steam's greenlight program?

 

I am a woman of practical approaches to problems and I realize subspace has no shortage of problems to deal with. Not the least of which is its dwindling population. I've seen many a hypothesis on the why and how this is happening; in my personal opinion (and feel free to disagree with it) I think, more than anything, it has to do with the fact that people simply do not know where are here. There are lots of successful online games that sport as good if not worse graphics than subspace. Good game play is good game play regardless of the aesthetics.

 

That said, it's with that philosophy that I am approaching my own personal attempts to help bring in new blood. But I wanted to check in with you lot as I had these questions bouncing around. I have my own ideas that I will put into motion BUT if there is a possibility of a "new" game and a second mass exodus of zones from one client to another, then it would be better to concentrate my efforts on this new game as opposed to Continuum.

 

Thoughts/concerns/suggestions/comments are all welcome.

 

p.s. i humbly suggest a name for the next chapter in subspace's history: Subspace: Saga ;P

Edited October 29, 2012 by julia

[JoWie]

3. The intention of aphelion (the java client) is to be able to support everything continuum has to offer. However it does this by breaking compatibility. Meaning you need new software, have to convert settings (which could of course be done by a tool). But you will be able to have all the same gameplay.

 

The current state is that the major parts of the multiplayer simulation logic is done. Right now the actual networking is being implemented. The way the networking is going to function has already been planned, so that part is mostly about actually coding it. The simulation and networking differs a lot from continuum, from a technical standpoint.

 

We also already have some stuff like .lvl loading (same format as continuum) with tileset. And a nice random(ish) parallax starfields that is the same on every screen and uses almost no memory.

 

The intention is to release aphelion as open source (under the AGPL 3 license).

 

Right now the issue is getting over a few big obstacles. I have to code some things that I really need to spend a full day on.

Later on in the project things will speed up because it will be easier to get more people involved and I will able to make small steps in evenings.

[Lone Outlaw]

Phoenix-ss Will be able to do everything continuum can as im sure Richard will eventually get around to posting, however you will need to port over your tileset, or configure it to match the editor or tile size in the new map editor. Please keep in mind i have just talked with Richard often, and installed and played Pheonix-ss a bunch of times, so while im sure im fairly accurate, Richard might keep you better informed on what Pheonix-ss will offer.

 

Map Elements and Particle Editor

However to continue, there will be a particle editor, so things like bomb explosions, engines trails etc. As well as a map editor, that will have map elements, These elements will include boosters (fly over it, and you get boosted) like those mario kart games, etc. Good if you are building race tracks. Other map elements will include one way force fields/walls, when placed you can fly through them in one direction yet going the other direction they are solid. Good for compartmentalized play, and certain ideas/themes/events. Anyway that's a general idea of what map elements are. Basically meaning you will need to know less and less coding, as you can basically do anything just using the map editor itself.

 

The Map Editor

The map editor itself will feature, an online library. If you agree to share your work, tiles, graphics, they will be downloaded to such a library. Whenever someone opens the Map editor, it will auto-update and add new elements. This way through a competitive nature, the Map editor library will eventually store thousands of walls and tiles, so that development will be endless, seemless, and unique. As there will likely be only 20 or 30 zones, and thousands of graphics to choose from.

 

Beyond this keep in mind, Richard told me, the Map editor will have some sort of scripting, so one only has to script to get things done. Scripting will be real time. So you can edit the script, click play within the map editor, and see what changes you made and how they affect the script. This makes debugging much easier, as well as learning, and development will no longer be a problem. The complaining by people who love a zone, and yet can't code in c++ will virtually be none existent. No longer will people need to rely on other programmers who are AFK and don't have time for the game anymore.

 

New Menu System

Pheonix-ss to this end, will have special Menus, which will be scalable, moveable and closable. Such will be the nature of the mini map for example. Beyond this when you have a practice or event, and display scores, no longer will scores have to be displayed in

 through the in game text spamming the chat screen. But rather such information will be displayed through menus, which can easily be edited, allowing for you to add your own titles, rows, columns, and math formulas for calculating wins and losses and so on. These stat menus will easily be closed or tabbed. The menus will also apply to buy and sell features. So a zone like Hyperspace can add pictures of the items on sale for each ship, show price, and scale quantity of how many items you are buying or selling.
 
[b]Chat features[/b]
There will be new chat features, PM boxes, friends lists, block lists, and a Pheonix WIDE lobby, which every player can chat on and be logged into the minute they open the client. This will likely be tabbed in the chat as General. The chat will then feature the zones chat, named after whatever the zone is called. So Extreme Games Tab, for the zone chat. From there there will be a Help chat, where moderators across Pheonix-ss can help new players and answer their questions.
 
In short Pheonix-ss can likely do everything. And im assured by Richard it will have enchanced security as well, making the need to ban people all the more obsolete, as there will be various other methods to deal with people in a zone. EG and all other zones will be easily portable. And yes of course, on Pheonix-SS you will be able to host and run your own zone. The number one attraction of continuum was development, and the ability to make your own zone. The same is true of the Pheonix client, except it gives a whole new dimension to continuum, by allowing for far more customization, and improving the nature of development itself.
 
 
[b]Steam[/b]
As for Continuum on Steam, i believe the reason Polix gave for it not pulling through, is that we need a certain count on the steam page.
http://steamcommunit...ntinuumsubspace
 
Here it is, we currently have 393, and i think we needed 1000, or something to get continuum listed as a free game. At any rate tell everyone you know to join the community page. What's needed is not to make a new group, but get this group rebooted/revived and add more moderators to the community page which are more active, and can post something weekly at the very least. And of course bring the community count from 393, to 1000, if anyone can do this then it would be a nice way to help. Of course i would do it, but i doubt polix would grant me moderator status, and i am unsure of who to contact anyway.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Dr Brain]

1. What was the reason behind Continuum's denial? Was it IP licensing issues? Or something more practical like access to the client source code? No commercial backing? Unclear ownership issues?

 

All of the above. Though the only insurmountable one is the lack of source code.

 

2. I understand the last attempt to deal with Steam was done so before their release of the "greenlight" program. Has anyone attempted to resubmit Continuum as a candidate for this new program? If not, is it worth attempting again?

 

Without source code, there's no point.

[Lone Outlaw]

Does steam require source code for every game they advertise or sell, or that uses their services? Why would they need or want that? Doesn't that belong to the company/persons who made the game? Not argueing, just curious.

 

EDIT

Ahh i see, so basically priitk would have to set us up on steam, for steam to approve anything, i guess there is no real reason why he wouldn't, but i guess he doesn't care to or is too busy?

Edited October 31, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Dr Brain]

The discussion is irrelevant, as the source will never be released by PriitK.

[Samapico]

Does steam require source code for every game they advertise or sell, or that uses their services? Why would they need or want that? Doesn't that belong to the company/persons who made the game? Not argueing, just curious.

It's not that they require the source... it's that WE would need it to be in control of the game, or at least prove that it's ours.

[Vidiot_X]

Hi,

 

I'm not oppressed to putting Phoenix on Steam but if they require my source code that would be a deal breaker. I know a few other developers that have submitted to Steam and I'll check with them on the Greenlight requirements as Steam's site says very little about the details, and it will not be ready until August 2013 (see the very bottom here: ( http://www.steampowe...amworks/FAQ.php ).

 

My view of Steam is while a popular way to pedal your game, it is not necessary for me to have a successful game. Really the game and it's game play, performance and quality are what keep potential users coming back to play and they are the ones that spread the word. Just putting a game on Steam is no guarantee of success. You still have to market it (other then Steams offerings) and do most of the leg-work you would have to do anyway.

 

I guess the bottom line for me is Steam is largely unnecessary and a hassle to develop for.

 

- Rich -

[Static Burn]

Polix said this a couple months ago in the last thread about steam: http://www.subspace.co/topic/26597-steam-greenlight/

 

I'll see if I can get Priit's ear on this. Honestly, without him, we can't resolve the issues continuum has loading with steam for some people.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Static Burn

[Lone Outlaw]

Is everyone who posted here a member of the steam group? if not you guys should join, it's largely anonymous, unless your steam name is the same as your ss nick or forum name. Edited October 31, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[PoLiX]

Since was e-mailed about this...

 

One issue I saw when looking into Greenlight was they want actively updated games, that or the game was to be submitted by the developer. It may have changed since, though a lot about greenlight has changed quickly with it actually costing to submit a game now and all. I would say getting behind one of the new client projects, and promoting it is your guys' best hope here.

 

They also would like to see features from the Steam client added into the game using their SDK for their Steam Community. This isn't a requirement from what I have seen yet, but I have noticed some non-valve developed games have this function in them. This is where Priit would come in without question, and where there would probably be some issues with the way Continuum's in game communications work.

 

Now just being listed and nothing more is an obvious option (and probably all it turns out to be), but with Valve, I don't always trust this is all they ever expect.

 

Finally... Continuum has had issues for many people (myself included back on XP) with being launched by Steam. Not a huge amount of research was put into why, but I do remember the most likely assumed one was Continuum's packing security keeping external programs from opening it.

 

But hey, I'm not involved anymore. So someone else can try pursuing it. Things change, so could be a good chance right now.

 

 

Edit: I'd be more than happy to add anyone to the steam group as admin who is willing to keep it updated. Just message me on steam: http://www.steamcommunity.com/id/pressured/

[Lone Outlaw]

Beh im not qualified to keep it updated, because i don't play much of any zone anymore, but anyone who could post once a week, about different zone events, would be the best bet.

[»jabjabjab]

Wow this topic kindof got de-railed.

[julia]

thanks for the responses.

 

EG staff has started realizing we need to get the word out there, so social networking is becoming something we are doing ( a bit late, I know, but worth a try). I got tasked with maintaining the new EG twitter account and FB group. If anyone wants to add me/follow/whatever: twitter.com/SSCXEG If any other zone uses twitter I'd be willing to advertise events going on in that particular zone if the favor was returned. This is being done in addition to a completely rehauled website... Which has been needed for probably close to a decade.

 

PERSONALLY (and baring in mind my personal opinions mean nothing in EG), I think backing one of the other ss projects would be the best move we could make for the zone and the game as a whole. But like I said, I'm not in a position to make those kinds of decisions. If I were one of the devs of these new projects I would start talking to zone owners now, get an understanding and build a relationship before you release your game. It will make any (potential) moves a lot smoother and will benefit both of our causes.

 

I don't use Steam, otherwise I would offer to do it.

 

P.S.

don't be a stranger, Pol!

[aesop]

Has anyone thought about redesigning the greening system in SS? I'm thinking of the League of Legends model that employs a shop for items in game, and runes that players purchase before playing the game that would augment their ship.

 

Just theorizing, bear with me. Imagine items in game, like thors, bricks, rockets, portals, being accesible from an "in-game shop", and purchased with money that players accumulate from killing other players or greening. This would be getting heavy into coding I believe, of which I have no knowledge. So take the idea with a grain of salt. Anyway, the only reason I'm bringing it up is, League of Legends runs a seemingly successful business as a free to play game. I don't see why updating Subspace to include more "RPG" elemets (ship augmentation--such as +1% turn rate, speed, damage, etc, or new ships with new unique abilities--such as bombs that disable other ships, create black holes, "blinks", possible implementations are literally infinite) that could create funds that could help develop the game into something larger over time. So, a business. Anyway, food for thought. The Subspace idea is solid, building on it seems possible.

 

The map editor you mentioned sounds great by the way--I keep barraging Hallu with map submissions for a holiday Chaos Zone map, because I can't test what I change on my own. So, real time editing/playing would cut map creation time by a huge margin.

[Dr Brain]

I take it you've never played SSCE Hyperspace.