Population Counts

[Dav]

Dr Brain, please restore Hyperspace's population adjustment. It was incredibly handy. You can see if people are playing just from the zone list. I don't see what all the fuss is about. You can clearly see the zone's true population count. It's not like some obscure number is being added. It only appeared when people were in ships. That in itself is the single most useful feature to come out of this whole shared arenas fiasco.

 

That is a nice feature, but no excuse to add 1000 to the population.

[Dr Brain]

I'm open to a discussion of an alternate way to display the Hyperspace population, such as not counting spectators at all, or reporting 0 when no one is playing. Open a thread in the HS forums about it, and we can hash out the pros and cons.

[Lone Outlaw]

i wonder if a new client, could display bots/players/spectators/ or would a new client have subgame at all?

[Stag Shot]

I guess my last post wasn't quite clear, so I'll clarify. Once we get full billing on our new server, I'm going to re-enable peering for asss and SG-fixed zones. There will be no inflation, as legacy SG zones won't be included (unless they can get their fix.dll updated).

 

As for our server environment, it will function just fine as is. Zones rarely need something requiring root access anyways. And yes I agree with numpf that Snrub was just attempting to acquire source, and has ulterior motives..

[Lone Outlaw]

Ahh thats good news then, that you can enable peering, and not have the inflated populations now.

 

I'm not a programmer, and therefore slow to catch on without more detail. And it's probably annoying to have to take my hand and walk me through everything but im just curious.

 

Who has source right now? Do you mean source for your server? and work you did on ASSS? For security.so? (who made security.so?) Why would nurmf have access to src and snrrub be denied? (btw what does src stand for?) And whats wrong if snrrub had source? Isn't open source better for development? As many games provide their code freely sometimes..

[Hakaku]

Who has source right now? Do you mean source for your server? and work you did on ASSS? For security.so? (who made security.so?) Why would nurmf have access to src and snrrub be denied? (btw what does src stand for?) And whats wrong if snrrub had source? Isn't open source better for development? As many games provide their code freely sometimes..

Src stands for "source (code)", and he's referring to a file called security.so, which contains sensitive information about Continuum's protocol for connecting to zones and billers, I believe. It's not distributed openly because it could be used for hacking purposes, and seeing as how Priit is inactive, we would be unable to really defend against any attacks that exploited the protocol and its flaws.

 

I believe Grelminar, Numpf, Akd and Dr Brain have access to the source, as they're some of the oldest asss zone hosts around and have contributed to asss directly. Snrrrub, on the other hand, is still new as a host and has shown a lot of reluctance to cooperate with anyone since his return a few years ago. Back then, he was given nearly everything but ended up throwing a fit over the control of the source to some (unrelated) code, and basically pulled out of the community as a result (and frankly, became uncontactable as Deva's host). All of his few contributions to asss ended up never making it to the core, as they contained some serious flaws he refused to address thereafter.

 

So yes, it would be nice if we weren't stuck with this one closed source module, but we don't have a choice. With Snrrrub, there are a lot of trust issues, and it's likely that he would end up making modifications to the file if he had the source, but then refuse to distribute his changes, or he might use it for other personal gains.

[numpf.pb]

Who has source right now? For security.so? (who made security.so?) Why would nurmf have access to src and snrrub be denied? And whats wrong if snrrub had source? Isn't open source better for development?

(hakaku replied while I was writing. there is duped info, but I'll post in full anyway)

 

It's a bit hard to make this simple but:

 

security.so contains the encryption and security checksum code. Continuum physics are "client-authenticated," that means that what the client says happens is what happens for the player using that client. If you dont see a bullet hit you, you don't take damage. If you can modify the client's memory or the packets, you can cheat. So encryption keeps you from modifying packets, and checksums keep you from modifying the exe. You need security.so with asss if you want to prevent cheating. If you have its source code you can circumvent it. Its source code needs to remain secret.

 

Grelminar wrote asss originally and was given code by priitk to make security.so. Grel more or less retired from asss dev years ago and gave access to people who were active, trusted, and capable at the time. That's Dr Brain, me, and stag shot. Arnk Dylie also has access, but I don't know if he was given access by grel or brain.

 

Snrrrub has in some ways behaved like Catid. I don't know about the incident Hakaku is talking about, but he has publicly posted some details about cont's encryption and checksums. Which need to remain secret to prevent cheating. I wouldn't give anyone src to security.so w/o knowing and trusting them, and even then I'd prefer to have approval from priitk or grel. Snrrrub can never qualify, for me, based on his actions. I was not asked at the time though; brain can answer that if he wants, but I assume his answer is similar.

 

As an aside, Jowie intends to circumvent all this in his client/server with server-authenticated physics. The server tells you if a bullet hit you. I don't know what other clients like discretion do.

 

-numpf

[Dr Brain]

Snrrrub can never qualify, for me, based on his actions. I was not asked at the time though; brain can answer that if he wants, but I assume his answer is similar.

 

I haven't had much in the way of dealings with him, and I didn't take his release of encryption info for older clients as a serious attack on the integrity of the game. On the other hand, the fact that he couldn't get the already released security.so to work meant he was either pulling a fast one or incompetent. And we all can agree he's not incompetent.

[Samapico]

Even I was able to get a security.so working for a 64 bit ASSS

It wasn't easy to find, but someone had it laying around.

[Cheese]

didnt dr release that 64bit so?

[Dr Brain]

I've released at least one, yes.

 

I don't want it to seem like we just cut Snrrrub loose. I know Arnk tried to help him get everything working, including sending him a recently compiled security.so. I also offered to help, though this was a few days afterwards (I was on vacation, and out of contact at the time things were happening).

[Lone Outlaw]

Hmm alright, it's funny because i already got the idea of editing the client when i was netbanned. Someone basically explains the jists of the banning system on Minegoboom, but with reference to subspace. However, i know it would be too big a task for me, especially if there was encryption to break. (Which generally is impossible, plus Priitk updated continuum to military grade encryption) Though i wouldn't put it past me to learn to modify packets or checksum, if i was netbanned i would likely be forced to learn, unless there was some easier way to get in game.

 

But all that info, largely history was intersting.

 

Still it's strange that no one trusts Snrrub. Reasons aren't exactly straightforward (ie a reason like - he hacked the game and cheated - is a good reason not to trust someone) But many reasons given were more of intuition or personally based. (he's an oddball - not part of the club/group - too much of an unknown)

 

If he did use security.so for personal gain, isn't that technically what everyone else has done? None of you could ever be netbanned if you didn't want to be. Ie the personal gain is that snrrub could circumvent netbans? So what's so bad about that? He's certainly not a subspace criminal right? WHAT exactly would the personal gain be?

 

The only other valid reason was that snrrub might make information public. Though i can hardly blame someone for wanting information to be accessible and free (Known as a White Knight hacker). (ie making everything transparant) It might actually kick people in the butt and get a new client rolling sooner.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Snrrrub]

I'm flattered that so many of you continue to talk about me. Try emailing me sometime, it's better than idle gossip on a message board, I promise.

 

Arnk and Dr. Brain have been helpful and accommodating in trying to get a 64-bit security.so file that works on my Debain/stable box. There seems to be some pthread library compatibility issue and after a couple of back-and-forths, we couldn't get it resolved. I gave Hakaku and Aquarius the entire zone directory for their respective zones so they can continue to run them wherever and however they wish. Since I'm not hosting anymore, I have no need for any SS-related source.

 

I have reverse-engineered SubSpace/Continuum protocols, cryptosystems, and physics simulations over the years. I have open-sourced them and as a direct result of that work, we've had active development of bot engines and bots over the years. I do this at my prerogative, to learn, to contribute, and to be a better engineer. I value action over talk and continue to build software professionally and personally.

 

This thread has dozens of comments but not one actionable outcome. It's not Priit's fault that "the game is dying". Take action.

 

I sincerely hope everyone here can put aside their ego and learn to respect one another and build great things instead of bragging, calling names, butting heads, politicking, etc. You all play for the same team.

[»Admiral Kirk]

Snrrrub, long time no talk, send me a PM if you happen to read this, might be nice to catch up.

 

As for the rest of you, all I can do is shake my head. SVS never understood, and niether do most of the rest of you. I personaly know 5 people with sufficient information in thier possession (myself included) to code a cheating client that would pass as Continuum. The reason you dont have a horde of cheaters on your hands isnt because of Priit's masterfull encryption (although what he did with the exe was pretty impressive from what Snrrrub has described) but because no one realy cares anymore.

[Stag Shot]

Trust me, I'm the first to lead a revolt..But until somebody replaces Cont (I dont have the time/resources), we are stuck. I've probably heard of half a dozen attempts in the past decade, but nothing has materialized.

 

I'm at least trying to get people off SG once and for all..But it's not easy.

 

PS - Nothing would make me happier than to be free of our dictator =P

[Hakaku]

@Admiral Kirk

 

"The rest of you" is really quite the generalization. I do think it's strange the source wasn't just given considering it's long been known Snrrrub had figured out a significant portion of the encryption and protocol. Personally, I think releasing some of that information way back then had more benefits than drawbacks, and I'm pretty sure Snrrrub wasn't plotting to grab the security.so file and release all its content. It's pretty obvious if he wanted to cheat the game, he would have done it long ago. (I suppose it wasn't clear from my post, but I wasn't trying to imply that was his intention, hence my attempt at vague wording.)

 

Further, this thread isn't about Priit killing the game, that's pretty irrelevant. If the entire community cared so much about just a mere update to the game, we would have all jumped aboard the RapidShare train a number of years ago. But the problem with RapidShare was the same as with Snrrrub: there were trust issues, simple as that.

[JoWie]

I have not bothered looking at the binaries of continuum, so I am just reposting:

 

Someone suggested part of the reason the source was not released was because of legal reasons?

It was even suggested there is not a whole lot of source to release, that continuum is mostly a bunch of assembly hacking upon the old subspace client.

[PoLiX]

There is lots of cheating, though your average player never notices it. Bots and Staff have been pretty quick to handle them, and we've gotten pretty good at locking them out of the game (thanks to there being active access to lvl0 bang for net-bans). People also just haven't cared to spread how they cheated, or a program to do so. Some have even turned to attempting to help solve/point out the exploits, and unlike some in the past we have listened to them to keep from having another catid-like episode.

 

We can't be nieve enough to believe computers, programs, and cheating techniques are still locked circa 2007. The game is still very vulnerable, but as previously stated, has dwindled to the point most don't feel it is worth their time to cheat.

[»Admiral Kirk]

@Hakaku

 

My appologies if my comments were inflamatory, no offense was meant and I appreciate your level-headedness in replying to it. My fault for letting my frustration form my response. I believe you are correct in your sumation of the situation. I just wish it could have turned out differntly from the start. I owe this game a great deal for where I am in the word today. A professional programmer making good money with a loving wife who is several months into the process of creating our first child. None of it would have ever happened if not for this game, quite litterly. I just wish we could have all worked together to do more, but I guess everything has its time and perhaps the bell for this game has started to toll.

[Lone Outlaw]

Polix, i think though if you poll subspace/continuum players, about cheating programs, most of us know what they are, were to find them, or who to ask to get them. We just don't see a point to cheating. Most people want to play the game, win through real skill, maybe there are some other 'in game' issues, but cheating isn't one of them.

 

Of course i believe there are still lots of cheaters. But i personally only have seen one or two a year. Other cheaters probably do get banned too fast, and it's likely they were experimenting or just your average kid trying a program out, not really knowing anything more tech savvy then that.

 

Of course snrrub worked out most of the exe by now. That's why i was wondering what his personal gain would be. etc if he had the security.so. Most people who are good programmers or good with networking, can probably bypass a netban, or cheat if they wanted to already. At the same time if security.so was released. Someone like myself still wouldn't be able to cheat. Wouldn't have the desire too. And still wouldn't be able to evade a netban. Because all that information would be beyond what i understand. Like i said before, if i was forced to learn it. It's possible i could, in a year. But even with a previous netban, i found ways to talk in the game without resorting to dissecting the client, or playing with packets, so my quest for solving problems ended there.

Edited September 8, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[JoWie]

Polix, i think though if you poll subspace/continuum players, about cheating programs, most of us know what they are, were to find them, or who to ask to get them. We just don't see a point to cheating. Most people want to play the game, win through real skill, maybe there are some other 'in game' issues, but cheating isn't one of them.

 

Of course i believe there are still lots of cheaters. But i personally only have seen one or two a year. Other cheaters probably do get banned too fast, and it's likely they were experimenting or just your average kid trying a program out, not really knowing anything more tech savvy then that.

 

Of course snrrub worked out most of the exe by now. That's why i was wondering what his personal gain would be. etc if he had the security.so. Most people who are good programmers or good with networking, can probably bypass a netban, or cheat if they wanted to already. At the same time if security.so was released. Someone like myself still wouldn't be able to cheat. Wouldn't have the desire too. And still wouldn't be able to evade a netban. Because all that information would be beyond what i understand. Like i said before, if i was forced to learn it. It's possible i could, in a year. But even with a previous netban, i found ways to talk in the game without resorting to dissecting the client, or playing with packets, so my quest for solving problems ended there.

 

The issue is not that some people know how to cheat, the issue is someone releasing a tool so that anyone can do it without any knowledge.

This is the same issue that DRM faces, and also why it keeps failing.

Edited September 8, 2012 by JoWie

[Dr Brain]

I'll first summarize the relevant points about releasing the security source:

 

The encryption is the first step in creating a cheat.

The encryption is the last step in creating a continuum compatible client.

 

Let me further state that none of the public replacements are anywhere near needing it, and most, like Discretion, will never need it.

 

So while I agree that the reason people haven't created cheats is more about the lack of motivation than the lack of source code, there really is nothing to be gained at this point by releasing it.

[true_vision]

 

trench wars has 95 people. Their population displays as 128. (They are off the bug? but display bots, unless there is 30+ people in private arenas)

 

 

Trench wars core spawn 1 TW-Guard in each arena/Subarena to watch for racist. A bot that run across all subarenas ''Who-bot'' which check zone stats and record alias, A bot for warnings, A bot for bans, A bot for zone msgs ( ER/Mod ) for when they host, leagues bots.... and plenty of others ... But actually they are USED for something when you think about it. They are not worthless bots that make the population bigger for no reasons. That's my opinion.

[»jabjabjab]

hyperspace is kiling the game people go into the zone and see noone playing and give up.

 

And saying shit like "Oh all the other zones have to stop. We'll be the last ones to be reasonable". How about not kiling the game we all love...

 

 

http://thebest404pageever.com/swf/zorak.swf

 

[Resol]

:twchat:!stats

(TWChat)>Pop=121 | Online=121 | Outsiders=19 | Bots=52 | Database=120 | Queued=1 | Last update 10 sec ago

 

I don't see the need for 52 bots.

 

Keep in mind this is at 1:20am Eastern time, there isn't more than 30/40 people even playing.

 

90% of the bots they have are running 100% of the time and used 1%. A lot of the bots they have could me merged to the same bot spawn and function just fine.

 

If' you're going to sit there and tell me that they need 50+ bots at all times to properly run the zone, I would have to disagree.