Population Counts

[Lone Outlaw]

Other than having priitk do approximately the same amount of work you claim I should do, my preference would be to figure out how to get a unified zone entry, with the combined player count, that could replace the individual zone entries in the distributed list. This is not as simple.

 

This is everyone's preference. No one outright completely disagrees with trying to merge the zones for "More convenient" access between zones.

 

There is observational evidence that it doesn't benifit zones, at least from a perspective i can talk about which is DSB. DSB sees no new players from EG or Choas zone. Most players respectively stay in the zone they prefer despite their being more convenient access to other zones. That aside if there is a possibility it can somehow benifit zones, then no one is against trying it.

 

However this possibility is nullified if the zone is lieing about population which has been shown to upset much of the community in each zone, as well as being demoralizing to new players who had their expectations up.

 

The idea here is to ACHIEVE what you want, except to do it with accurate population displays. And hence until that time it can be achieved that way, it should be disabled, until people can spare more time to make it work correctly.

 

I guess this could sound weird, so I will answer. Yes, we could completely capitulate in a short period of time, but I am not interested in validating the threat. I also think it will damage our zone. I don't have great evidence for this, but neither does the other side. The letter mentioned is not convincing, and almost looks fake. Why is polix at least not mentioning the site, if not the individual reviewer?

 

I completely agree, that it could be a small site, and it could even be a player who messaged polix pretending to be a small site. Infact the latter is what crossed my mind first, and i found it kind of funny that polix might have gotten coerced or fooled. But that aside there is no way to prove a player from the community sent the letter, and that is why i'll assume polix took the letter seriously, and it's the same reason i'll take the letter seriously, because well it's the benifit of the doubt.

 

Sure maybe only one or two players are affected, and if you believe the ends justify the means, you won't really care about 2 players who had their hopes up and enter a zone and see it has 6 people.

 

But ultimately this reflects poorly on the whole of continuum, the outcome being positive or negative doesn't really matter. We don't know for sure what the merge does, or if faking pops harms zones. (Even though we have some facts in support of both cases). What we do know for sure is that it's wrong to advertise falsely and to lie.

 

If you don't care about one or two guys who leave because every zone is lying about population, then why does it even matter if your zone has players from the merge of zones? You disregard the potential loss of faking populations, and yet still want a potential gain from merging zones. That just makes you a hypocrite.

 

And i definitely agree with Stags post, if i was in the position push Priitk, believe me i would do it everyday, and no one could do it better. But few people are in that position, and one of them is Polix.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[PoLiX]

Chaos/Zone has stopped peering. It was not because of my threat, it just brought it to mind that they had thought about stopping it to test if anyone complained, and now decided why not.

 

There was an old thread, some of you (maybe most) were not around for. It spread all over SS, and soon tons of players we joining in on it. ZippyDan wrote an essay against what Priit was doing at the time, and things going on in the game. Priit attempted to defend himself in this thread, but was constantly attacked from all sides of players angry at SSC, the Closed Sourceness of the Game, and the "power-mongers" in general. It may be no coincidence the only real release after this time was Continuum .39pr1, and the fact .39 Final sat finished and unreleased for 4 years (Priit admitted to this himself). Rampant cheating and constant poking from Ghost Ship is the only thing that got us .39 Final (renamed .40).

 

From replies since then, Priit does still care enough to keep the lights on (most likely servers paid to be managed by Superb - the hosting company), but he lacks motivation, time, or dedication to do much more. The fact Continuum is not solely his code or work, he lacks the rights to give us the source.

 

To login to a zone that says 40 people and all 40 are in spec, it sucks sure, but normally atleast 1 or 2 of them are not completely afk. To see a zone with population of 100+, and find only 2 players, feels like someone pulled the rug out from under you. And you find yourself looking for all the others wondering wtf. This doesn't only happen to new players, nor only vets, even active players.

 

I remember when I got home from work, looking through the tickets, open Continuum and saw EG, Chaos, etc. with tons of players thinking "Holy Crap some sort of advertising finally worked!". I only found my hopes dashed when I learned it was a side effect of the arena sharing. Heard a lot of players make that same comment that day, and many part time players thinking someone revived the game to find out otherwise. Sure, we're still here, but it sucked even for us. Can't imagine the feeling a newb or an old player returning has when they realize they were wronged.

 

 

The feature has an ability to be great and do good. But it requires changes we currently cannot make ourselves. There are ways around it using the abilities Powerball has given by being the controller, but instead it will be used as another attempt to force Priit into doing something. Something that may be answered with "fine, don't like it, go somewhere else" and off go some of those lights. Or he may not do anything and just ignore it. Sure you don't know til you try, but I'd be prepared for all 3 scenarios.

 

As for my threat and deadline, will have to wait and see wheter it was empty or not.

[Cheese]

holy walls of text batman

[Cheese]

Yes, an update sounds like a good idea. That update need not include the deletion of zones from the default list. You can update the installer again in 6 months for that.

 

so if thats true, you will have no problems with being taken off the list until you comply

you can just get readded 6 months later

 

no problem

[Cheese]

.

 

 

 

because from what i have heard, there has already been a fixed dll released that allows the peering without the inflated population counts

some zone owners, especially from those zones with 5 people in it like star warzone, know about the fix and decided not to use it because they enjoyed their fake population counts too much, and some tried to make up excuses like not having file access to their zone servers, despite having *putfile

[PoLiX]

If *putfile worked, you'd be fine, but it doesn't. EG has already tried such measures and crashed the zone when it recycled.

[Stag Shot]

because from what i have heard, there has already been a fixed dll released that allows the peering without the inflated population counts

some zone owners, especially from those zones with 5 people in it like star warzone, know about the fix and decided not to use it because they enjoyed their fake population counts too much, and some tried to make up excuses like not having file access to their zone servers, despite having *putfile

 

I don't know this to be true. I fixed the dll for both DSB and EG, but only DSB was able to implement it. You need to be able to stop SG and upload the file then, which is not possible on the main SG server.

[spidernl]

... possibly from one of the zones like HS where they don't like the peering ...

 

Where'd you get that idea? I wasn't aware that we disliked peering. We just don't like zones deliberately using it to inflate their population. Quite a few zones (whichever ones use ASSS, at the very least) could keep the functionality while getting rid of the fake population issue without spending much more than half an hour, yet they choose not to.

 

You should ask yourself which sane developer would choose to keep a clearly 'bugged' implementation of a feature that's likely keeping new players away on a daily basis in a game where even a single new player is a significant gain.

[Stag Shot]

Where'd you get that idea? I wasn't aware that we disliked peering. We just don't like zones deliberately using it to inflate their population. Quite a few zones (whichever ones use ASSS, at the very least) could keep the functionality while getting rid of the fake population issue without spending much more than half an hour, yet they choose not to.

 

You should ask yourself which sane developer would choose to keep a clearly 'bugged' implementation of a feature that's likely keeping new players away on a daily basis in a game where even a single new player is a significant gain.

 

This comes down to the PB philosophy, it's what we have done for the past decade. We FIX bugs, create bot cores, add new features (to SG or asss), take risks. We were the test ground for asss; we added replays with ball support and fast-forward capability. We have a ban system more powerful than banG. We have also been lucky to have great hosts (SSCX) and talent (including Ekted up until ~5 yrs ago). But most of all, we had motivation to innovate. Where is that drive anymore?

 

And yes people have questioned my judgement in the past. PB was once the only zone that enforced Cont 0.39pr3 when 39pr1 was the current "build." Other zone ops said I was just killing my player base and it would backfire. But I had done analysis on pr1's security and found cheating was not only possible, it was easy. It didn't take long for others to realize, and any lamer with a generic memory modifier was able to cheat. So if you think we are radical, it's probably because we have information not readily available (I did warn other zone ops).

 

I've been fixing prickt's bugs and neglect for almost a decade, and it's tiring. Let's move on with that which we can control, which is SG/asss. If our livelihood depends on a single free server which we have no control over, we have nothing. So when that reviewer asks "why are the numbers on the main screen fucked up?", what is the real answer? Do you tell him that we have a 9 month old fix that we can't upload?

[Lone Outlaw]

Do we need Priitk's Server? Other zones have been hosted on other servers before. Like DSB having it's own server, or Lynx had a server, or Snrrub. But i guess they are all connected to the Biller. It's not possible to set up a new biller? Or something.

 

And yeah i don't know what im talking about, thats why im asking questions. =/

Edited July 22, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[numpf.pb]

We just don't like zones deliberately using it to inflate their population.

That is your interpretation of PB's intent. I did not mean to say you don't like peering, but are annoyed at the side effect.

Chaos/Zone has stopped peering. It was not because of my threat

Your notion of causation is also different than mine then.

... players angry at SSC, the Closed Sourceness of the Game, and the "power-mongers" in general.

e.g. website owners who leverage their control over the installer to get their way. People may have misunderstood this, but there has been no SSC vote on anything to do with this issue. It is a unilateral threat by polix. Perhaps he suggested a vote on it, but not in the emails I saw.

The fact Continuum is not solely his code or work, he lacks the rights to give us the source.

I can't tell who might misunderstand or who might be misrepresenting with this statement. It certainly doesn't apply, at all, to fix.dll which is a hook into subgame and handles the peering we are discussing. As for cont, all of ek's code is for the GUI/chat window and isolated in menu40.dll. They only share a header file defining the interface. I'm fairly certain the .exe can be modified independently of the dll, provided cont doesn't change the interface to the GUI. I know the exe checksums the dll, so the reverse is not true. Are you serious, in what you seem to be implying, that priit's attitude is that he would hand off the source to someone capable if he had the opportunity?

As for my threat and deadline, will have to wait and see wheter it was empty or not.

Childish. "Maybe I will, maybe I won't." Sounds like exactly what zippy meant. It might be interesting to read that if it can be dug up.

 

In any event, stag cares more about the peering issue than I do, so he will be making the decision for PB.

 

-numpf

[Lone Outlaw]

There is a real discussion to be had here, including my (former) intention to push PB's implementation of peering to mainline asss, but not under threat. Even if the threat were appropriate, the deadline is ridiculous.

 

I personally will still not take part in the discussion under threat, esp. given the time factor. If you say "I will do this if it has not been at least addressed by January" we can start talking.

 

In a combative, heavy-handed way. That is unfortunate.

 

It is a unilateral threat by polix. Perhaps he suggested a vote on it, but not in the emails I saw.

 

You're disagreement from the beginning seems to be with how polix asked you. Which is as childish as it gets. No one cares about the past (sorry Stag Shot), all you did for ASSS, or why you "deserve" a deadline that satisfies your whole plan in life.

 

All that matters is that there is a problem and it should be fixed. Get on the same page or get out.

 

Sure blackmail sucks. Lots of people do it. We can debate how stupid they are in another thread. "Ban this guy or i won't play the game." "Kick him from the squad or i'll leave the squad." Blah blah. Polix gave you a deadline, get over it.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Samapico]

Whether the deadline is realistic or not, and if the thread is justified or not, the point is to get discussions on this matter going, and fast. It seems to be working, judging by the reactions in here...

[»gallitin]

.

 

 

 

because from what i have heard, there has already been a fixed dll released that allows the peering without the inflated population counts

some zone owners, especially from those zones with 5 people in it like star warzone, know about the fix and decided not to use it because they enjoyed their fake population counts too much, and some tried to make up excuses like not having file access to their zone servers, despite having *putfile

 

Enjoy fake population? Nope not the case, I didn't even implement the shared arenas to begin with in swz. I'm assuming now Junky put in the needed fix as the population is now correct.

[Cheese]

http://stats.sshq.net/graphs/graph_26_4.png

 

 

its good that you stopped though

[Cheese]

Do we need Priitk's Server? Other zones have been hosted on other servers before. Like DSB having it's own server, or Lynx had a server, or Snrrub. But i guess they are all connected to the Biller. It's not possible to set up a new biller? Or something.

 

what it really comes down to is:

 

IS IT WORTH HAVING SOMEONE PAY FOR A STABLE SERVER THAT WILL BE UP FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS REMAINING FOR THIS GAME

OR

NOT HAVE TO PAY AND HAVE FREE HOSTING BY PRIIT, AT THE COST OF HAVING TO PUT UP WITH HIS NEGLECT

[PoLiX]

Hallu would tell you my threat had nothing to do with it. He had thought about removing it previously, and had been on vacation. This just brought it to mind, and so he did. He was actually surprised to have a person contact him the next day saying they were happy to see it gone.

 

The threat isn't by myself. I again am just louder, and have the ability to make such a threat. The other zones have made their own threats (IE: TW leaving the SSC Biller) though noone has made it this public thus far (minus the previous thread on this issue, but HS just added 1K to pop there). I personally think Ghost Ship's threat of removing the zones from SSC was a bit far, but he is my superior, and that is his call.

 

I do not speak of just Ekted's code. But the Continuum source issue was discussed in game, to which I replied here also. Obviously there is much you have to learn about the client's code. As far as the fix.dll, yes it is all Priit's code, so he has no excuse there beyond his security paranoia.

 

Childish, maybe, but I'm not here to impress anyone. Sometimes we have to result to childish antics to get something done when everything is in a stalemate. Leverage must be used to make a move.

[numpf.pb]

But the Continuum source issue was discussed in game, to which I replied here also.

A url would be nice. It wasn't discussed in game with me, and I registered here just for this, because stag fwded me ssc emails. Simple searches aren't turning up anything obvious right away.

 

edit: in any event, the question is about priit's attitude more than the src itself.

Edited July 23, 2012 by numpf.pb

[Stag Shot]

what it really comes down to is:

 

IS IT WORTH HAVING SOMEONE PAY FOR A STABLE SERVER THAT WILL BE UP FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS REMAINING FOR THIS GAME

OR

NOT HAVE TO PAY AND HAVE FREE HOSTING BY PRIIT, AT THE COST OF HAVING TO PUT UP WITH HIS NEGLECT

 

Yes, you have succinctly nailed it.

 

And I'd say we not go off on the source tangent, that's not going to happen. We can't even get the guy to change a freaking DLL. As for releasing fix.c, he won't do it as it contains Cont encryption as well..

[PoLiX]

But the Continuum source issue was discussed in game, to which I replied here also.

A url would be nice. It wasn't discussed in game with me, and I registered here just for this, because stag fwded me ssc emails. Simple searches aren't turning up anything obvious right away.

 

edit: in any event, the question is about priit's attitude more than the src itself.

 

edit: resolved in game.

[midoent]

hyperspace is kiling the game people go into the zone and see noone playing and give up.

 

And saying shit like "Oh all the other zones have to stop. We'll be the last ones to be reasonable". How about not kiling the game we all love...

[aquarius]

I must have missed a day in class when they taught that two wrongs make a right.

 

 

Ultimately I don't see it as that much of a deal. I've always stated that 10% of people probably never play the game after downloading, simply because when they hit 'Play' it says 'This username (name) already exists.'.. That alone is enough for some people to say forget about it.

 

Then there's the default graphics options cluttering the screen. Kill messages, enter messages, leave messages, too many stars/background images.. I mean c'mon... When you install Continuum on a new computer and log in - it looks horrible.

 

 

 

A collective effort to send the correct player counts for each zone to directory servers can be accomplished, but would probably take a bit of time due the inactivity of a few people.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Aquarius

[Samapico]

The stars and background planets look nice...

[Lone Outlaw]

We could get rid of the old installer, and from this point on have a new installer, (obviously someone has to do all the work) with a better default skin, and any other changes. Maybe fix the default resolution.

We would need to replace all the installers on the internet, for it to really make a difference. By 'we' i mean you.. lol And by 'you' i mean whoever can and wants to do it.

 

Someone should think about resetting names that have been unused for 5 years. There must be a way to see all those names and reset them at once. Polix? You can't argue that a person should keep a name if they never logged into that name for 5 years. Can you?

 

I have around 20 names, but even i log into them once a month. So..

Edited July 24, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Resol]

I been displeased with the installer for years now.

 

You download and install continuum, and you get a server list overrun with dead zones and old servers. That looks really appealing to a new player don't you think?

 

Every time I bring it up, and get the same remark from Polix saying he can just repack the installer.

 

Now this has been an issue for years, and nothing has been done about it. I think it's a bigger issue than the fake population counts people view.

 

The reason I think the installer issue is worse than the population count issues is the simple fact that seeing a list full of dead zones looks a lot worse than entering a zone that reports 100+ players and finding barely any to none in the public arena of the server, when a player presses esc-a they get a list and the number of players they are looking for are displayed somewhere.

 

Granted, a new player doesn't usually know how to search for arenas, they also don't know how to download new servers, and neither do half the players that have been playing for years. I can go into any zone and talk to any person and ask the if they know how to download a new server list, and more often than not, they don't know how. Not only that, even the people that do know how, are using bad directory servers because the ones that are packed into the installer don't even work anymore, but I guess that's okay?