Population Counts

[No_Remorse]

So I noticed the population counts in most zones are back down to their true values. A job well done to whoever was responsible for this. Now I think it's time for Hyperspace to step up to the plate and stop inflating the statistics.

[Jareth]

That is cute that you think that.

[PoLiX]

Probably just a temporary hiccup, but trust me, a lot of discussion on the subject going on atm.

 

I am repacking a new installer at the end of the month to update a few things, tweak a few settings, and include some information/faqs for issues many people run into. I told them I would not include any of the zones with inflated population in the installer's default zone.dat, and really got some talk going. Only time will tell.

 

Trying to make people understand a feature that works as its creator intended, and not as they intended, is not a bug. Priit isn't jumping on this "bug" because it is working as he intended it to originally. It just doesn't work the way they want it to, so it is a "bug". I'll admit to supporting this and calling it a bug myself, but I have seen the other side of the story and continue seeing the bad side effects of it.

[Dr Brain]

The moment all of the SSC zones stop doing it, I'll remove the inflation from Hyperspace.

 

I put it in to make it worthless for them to have inflated populations to attract newbies, since this was the primary reason that they kept the "'feature". They have not been so candid in public discussions, but in-game they were fairly forthright.

 

P.S. Hyperspace does not alter the statistics. I made sure of this before I did anything to the count.

[Lone Outlaw]

Even if they fix pop stats, it will still count bots, so its still worthless. No one really cares how many bots are in a zone.

 

Hockey zone is probably the only close to accurate zone in displaying Population. When there is 50 people in HZ there actually is 50 people.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[No_Remorse]

The moment all of the SSC zones stop doing it, I'll remove the inflation from Hyperspace.

 

It appears as if they have yet Hyperspace still shows over 1000...

 

P.S. Hyperspace does not alter the statistics. I made sure of this before I did anything to the count.

 

Ok then, Hyperspace is exploiting a bug.

[Dr Brain]

Your initial post said most had stopped. Meaning some had not.

 

I do not have access to continuum this week, so if someone can confirm that they have all stopped, and it's not a glitch like polix indicated, then I'll get the ball rolling on removing HS's +1000 population count (I don't have access to the server either this week, but I can bug people that do).

 

Hyperspace does not use subgame. There are no bugs to exploit. I wrote the code to do exactly what it's doing. Report high population counts to continuum clients and leave the directory server based statistics websites alone.

[Lone Outlaw]

Powerball doesn't have 100 people. (i bet you can guess it's population, i'll give a hint its more than 2 but less than 4, and then subtract 1 bot)

 

Chaos doesn't have 104 people. It has 23 at the moment.

 

 

Nothing has stopped. I don't even know what NR is going on about. That EG and Trench have almost accurate populations. Doesn't mean it's accurate.

 

trench wars has 95 people. Their population displays as 128. (They are off the bug? but display bots, unless there is 30+ people in private arenas)

 

Extreme games has 55 people and 10-20 bots, their population displays as 115 (what a joke)

 

DSB isn't even exploiting the bug, and their zone has a constant population of 20. Even at 4am at night. I'm sure.

 

 

Hyperspace should stay at 1000.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[spidernl]

Seems like we're getting there. Only took a couple years.

[Cheese]

pro tip: the server platform that hyperspace operates on is able to tell players it has 1000+ while still reporting 30 to directories & etc

[»jabjabjab]

how about this: You're all acting like children on what is just a game. I didn't have much interest in this stupid thing, and now I don't have any at all.

[No_Remorse]

I have to apologize for singling out Hyperspace. Because despite what I thought, it is not the only zone exploiting the bug. However, things like this make the game seem unprofessional, and are a rather poor way to represent the community.

[Resol]

However, things like this make the game seem unprofessional, and are a rather poor way to represent the community.

 

It's a perfect way to represent it. It's exactly the truth.

[numpf.pb]

Trying to make people understand a feature that works as its creator intended, and not as they intended, is not a bug. Priit isn't jumping on this "bug" because it is working as he intended it to originally. It just doesn't work the way they want it to, so it is a "bug". I'll admit to supporting this and calling it a bug myself, but I have seen the other side of the story and continue seeing the bad side effects of it.

I have seen plenty of projects where supporting the obvious, simple generalization of a feature, or config option thereof, is considered a Bug-capital-B. I'll recap, because some people here are talking about some other "exploit" or "bug" which is neither.

 

Trench used to be really big, and subgame couldn't handle it. Priitk patched/hooked it for peering; slave subgames host subarenas, and report their population to the master subgame. ?go works seamlessly between them.

 

SVS zones are and have been in a weird position. Logically it's a set of subarenas based on the original physics settings. There are conflicts with hosting, staff, server features, and bot features, that have prevented a real merge. So, peering looked like an excellent option. Unlike(?) most other sets of zones, moving between SVS zones is (or at least used to be) very common. Bots that manage the queue for entering a 4v4prac supported (still do?) _remote_ private messages to claim a spot. ?go between these zones is actually a useful, reasonable feature. However, subgame always reports the total population of all peers, so counts are inflated. This applies to EG, CZ, PB*, and maybe 1 other.

 

*PB is on asss, but the decision was made to simply clone subgame's implementation of peering.

 

Player counts in other zones are inflated for other reasons. iirc, trench has lots of bots. Hyperspace adds +1000 in protest to the situation. You might call that undesirable, but I wouldn't call it a bug or exploit.

 

I am repacking a new installer at the end of the month to update a few things, tweak a few settings, and include some information/faqs for issues many people run into. I told them I would not include any of the zones with inflated population in the installer's default zone.dat

I can't think of an interpretation, even by you, in which this isn't a threat. Those tend to "start discussion." Unfortunately this is the kind of thing Resol means. There is a real discussion to be had here, including my (former) intention to push PB's implementation of peering to mainline asss, but not under threat. Even if the threat were appropriate, the deadline is ridiculous.

 

Everyone should keep in mind the primary barrier to real or best solutions is Priitk's total inactivity.

 

-numpf

-Powerball co-sysop & asss dev

[PoLiX]

Resol is only angry his server was denied SSC access, but that is another subject.

 

The reasoning behind the threat is to start discussion, which it has brought some talk in the council, and a lot in game. Everytime someone complained about it wheter in the council, in game, or on the forums the zones involved just ignored it. If you brought up the subject, they just said Priit needs to fix the "bug" and they wouldn't remove it. Granted EG tried to upload the patched fix.dll (inadvertingly crashing the zone for some time), but noone has just thought to disable the feature until such time that another work around could be found. Heck, the arenas can be shared without the population...

 

Many in their own zones have even protested it from the start, and more and more have joined calling it a useless feature. A few in EG brought up the point it shoves the EG arenas down below all the shared arenas which they find rather annoying.

 

You code a module or a bot and it doesn't work right: do you leave it up running regardless of the issues or do you shut it down and try to fix it?

[PoLiX]

At the Moment:

 

SSCX Chaos/League Zone SVS (*) ops:* bans:* players:34 (Client: 106)

SSCU Extreme Games (*) ops:* bans:* players:74 (Client: 118)

SSCU Extreme Games (*) ops:* bans:* players:4 (Client: 70) - Lists as SSCX Extreme Games

SSCX PowerBall (*) ops:* bans:* players:6 (Client: 99)

 

How would it not be frustrating to a new player (or any player at that) to see 99 in Powerball, go in, and 6 players all in spec (maybe less pending on sub arena bots)?

[»Lynx]

At the Moment:

 

SSCX Chaos/League Zone SVS (*) ops:* bans:* players:34 (Client: 106)

SSCU Extreme Games (*) ops:* bans:* players:74 (Client: 118)

SSCU Extreme Games (*) ops:* bans:* players:4 (Client: 70) - Lists as SSCX Extreme Games

SSCX PowerBall (*) ops:* bans:* players:6 (Client: 99)

 

How would it not be frustrating to a new player (or any player at that) to see 99 in Powerball, go in, and 6 players all in spec (maybe less pending on sub arena bots)?

 

I think that sums it up perfectly. There's no way anybody could argue to the contrary.

[Lone Outlaw]

It's best not to upload a bot (module) unless it works in the first place. Otherwise you would be half assed.

 

No one would knowingly upload something that's broken. Unless they did it to troubleshoot the problem and fix it.

 

So why are they leaving it up now that they know it's broken?

 

The population to client count i did earlier said the same thing.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[numpf.pb]

I personally will still not take part in the discussion under threat, esp. given the time factor. If you say "I will do this if it has not been at least addressed by January" we can start talking. I don't see the urgency. How many potential players will be lost solely due to this count discrepancy between now and then?

 

Among the options you will force us to consider is appealing to Mr. Ekted. I can't speak for him, and am pretty sure he'll just be annoyed to be contacted, but we will consider asking him to deny or withdraw your permission to distribute his code (part of Continuum). ek mostly only cared about PB and was as friendly as e-friends can be with the PB staff while he played, so there's a decent chance he'll back us.

 

Please let's not play this game. I suspect this can be settled even if necessary without priitk, but not in 10 days. I have only been reacquainting myself with asss for a month.

 

-numpf

[»Lynx]

I'm sorry, but everything you're saying is riddled with irony. You dislike threats, however immediately threat to have the decision process which has been fairly agreed upon overthrown by somebody who is no more active than "the primary barrier to real or best solutions" while at the same time admitting he would be pissed at the very fact you're contacting him.

 

You also demand six months to run a diff and re-compile (it requires the lowest level of technical competence) and shrug it off as not damaging the game, while we have evidence completely to the contrary - you mention that you've been re-acquainting yourself with asss for a month already (which would suggest you have prior experience atop of this recent experience) therefore I can't see how 10 days would not be long enough.

 

The problem, as it stands, is that any time anybody is exploiting the game as they are right now, we're losing players, and it should be a joint effort by those responsible (apparently including yourself) to bring the game back into control.

[Lone Outlaw]

I personally will still not take part in the discussion under threat, esp. given the time factor. If you say "I will do this if it has not been at least addressed by January" we can start talking. I don't see the urgency. How many potential players will be lost solely due to this count discrepancy between now and then?

 

Among the options you will force us to consider is appealing to Mr. Ekted. I can't speak for him, and am pretty sure he'll just be annoyed to be contacted, but we will consider asking him to deny or withdraw your permission to distribute his code (part of Continuum). ek mostly only cared about PB and was as friendly as e-friends can be with the PB staff while he played, so there's a decent chance he'll back us.

 

Please let's not play this game. I suspect this can be settled even if necessary without priitk, but not in 10 days. I have only been reacquainting myself with asss for a month.

 

I'm sorry, but everything you're saying is riddled with irony. You dislike threats, however immediately threat to have the decision process which has been fairly agreed upon overthrown by somebody who is no more active than "the primary barrier to real or best solutions" while at the same time admitting he would be pissed at the very fact you're contacting him.

 

You also demand six months to run a diff and re-compile (it requires the lowest level of technical competence) and shrug it off as not damaging the game, while we have evidence completely to the contrary - you mention that you've been re-acquainting yourself with asss for a month already (which would suggest you have prior experience atop of this recent experience) therefore I can't see how 10 days would not be long enough.

 

The problem, as it stands, is that any time anybody is exploiting the game as they are right now, we're losing players, and it should be a joint effort by those responsible (apparently including yourself) to bring the game back into control.

 

Even if you were busy, thinking of January as a reasonable time frame is really far fetched. If you are not too busy to post, then i'll assume based on what other people are saying (as i have no experience with zones, the problem in question or programming) that this specific problem is fairly easy to fix within a short time frame. January is half a year away. Even in the real world, in the work place you have two weeks notice for most things.

 

If ten days is not enough time, then maybe 20 days is more reasonable. But hoping you get until January is just.. crazy. Especially since the problem has persisted for more than 6 months already.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Stag Shot]

Reverting to the status quo ante is unacceptable at this point. We need progress and forward thinking, and this whole fiasco is a great example of how it shouldn't be. You complain that a reviewer harshly berated the game for having broken metrics, but what about development. When asked about our client and server structure, do we say that we are slaves to an apathetic programmer that has kept the client/server static for years. And if one of our zones goes down, we have to rely on email contact to restart it.

 

Why don't we focus our energies and push for some change. Why are zones denied access to binaries that are over five years old? What is he protecting, cont's protocol was pretty well characterized and published by snrub. Client dev is at a standstill, but theres no reason for server development to be held back. I know there was even some work done on extending SG functionality through a plug-in system.

 

I guess I'm asking for a revolution, while others are asking for 2008. Push the server op for access until he can't take it anymore. He will either yield or shut it down, either way it's progress. Haven't you had enough, is free really that valuable?

[numpf.pb]

You dislike threats, however immediately threat...

...when threatened, and proportionally, reluctantly, and specifically when I do.

Even if you were busy, thinking of January as a reasonable time frame is really far fetched ... based on what other people are saying ... this specific problem is fairly easy to fix within a short time frame. January is half a year away. Even in the real world, in the work place you have two weeks notice for most things.

I guess this could sound weird, so I will answer. Yes, we could completely capitulate in a short period of time, but I am not interested in validating the threat. I also think it will damage our zone. I don't have great evidence for this, but neither does the other side. The letter mentioned is not convincing, and almost looks fake. Why is polix at least not mentioning the site, if not the individual reviewer?

 

Other than having priitk do approximately the same amount of work you claim I should do, my preference would be to figure out how to get a unified zone entry, with the combined player count, that could replace the individual zone entries in the distributed list. This is not as simple. It is a technical, logistical, and, sigh, political problem. I have not been in contact with other zone admins for a long time. Just 2 minutes ago ratio suggested an alternative (sending negative counts from asss to subgame) that probably won't work. Either way, it takes time. Within SS I really only care about powerball, but am social enough to send our fixes/features upstream to asss. I have a job, and other hobbies. So I have a slice of a slice of time to spend, which I'd rather take to improve PB and asss. I have spent a month looking at asss and am still only nibbling around the edges, looking closely only at the stuff that causes crashes or I need to improve PB.

 

And again, there seems to be no real urgency. 6 months sounds about right. It is much more aggressive than priitk's schedule.

 

-numpf

 

p.s. a note about powerball. Stagnate owns the server, but hasn't logged on in years and defers to us. I am co-sysop with stag shot. Neither of us really speaks for the other, though we seem to mostly agree (he seems more mad). If one of us makes a decision for PB, the other will probably just acquiesce.

Edited July 21, 2012 by numpf.pb

[PoLiX]

When previous reviews have been posted the people quickly jumped on the site "being small" and meaningless. Which was not the point here, the point was that someone period was pointing out the issue from the outside. On top of that, anyone who knows my horrible grammar and spelling, would tell you I couldn't type that if I wanted. If you look to previous posts on the issue, I was a supporter, but more and more I have seen the other side's points. I just happen to be louder than them. And 2 of them are also ASSS zone head sysops.

 

EG has an asss server setup, and the option to move to ASSS on PB's hosting. Subgame is closed source, and always will be. Continuum is closed source and always will be. Can you blame Priit for stopping development? Would you continue developing for a group of people who are unthankful and constantly bitching at / attacking you? His entire desire to spend anytime on this game was lost, and now we pay for it.

 

The reason for the short time is a few people have mentioned issues with Windows 8 and the installer (guess few had issues with Windows 7 too, but not enough to warrant fixes) and I'd rather update it to see if that fixes the issues. It needs various other updates anyways (almost half the zone list is red, if not more now) and so if I repack a working one, might as well release it.

 

The problem is until very recently they had just dropped the subject and begun ignoring it. Obviously this has gotten the ball rolling again.

[numpf.pb]

When previous reviews have been posted the people quickly jumped on the site "being small" and meaningless. Which was not the point here, the point was that someone period was pointing out the issue from the outside. On top of that, anyone who knows my horrible grammar and spelling, would tell you I couldn't type that if I wanted.

If you say the site is small that's fine. That supports my suggestion that the cost of waiting is low. I think if the message is a fake it's more likely from a disgruntled player, possibly from one of the zones like HS where they don't like the peering, or most likely from one of PB's malcontents like Prime, the guy who got SSCX shut down.

 

EG has an asss server setup, and the option to move to ASSS on PB's hosting.

Again not simple. They have lots of bots using several different cores. I would have to ask, but they seemed to have too many problems for the move to be worth it. Again, more time is needed.

 

Can you blame Priit for stopping development? Would you continue developing for a group of people who are unthankful and constantly bitching at / attacking you?

No. I had exactly the same attitude towards powerball for years. I am highly sympathetic. I am somewhat less sympathetic to his not passing along the source, _especially_ for mere fix.dll, but some people are like that. I would suggest to him, from my recent experience, that if you start updates after a long layoff, you will get gratitude from even some of the largest douchbags you'd never have expected it from. However, the issue at hand (for me) is your threat.

 

The reason for the short time is a few people have mentioned issues with Windows 8 and the installer... so if I repack a working one, might as well release it.

Yes, an update sounds like a good idea. That update need not include the deletion of zones from the default list. You can update the installer again in 6 months for that. More easily than we can stop peering, in fact.

 

The problem is until very recently they had just dropped the subject and begun ignoring it. Obviously this has gotten the ball rolling again.

In a combative, heavy-handed way. That is unfortunate.

 

Please let me know if you are sticking to this deadline. This has to be my last post until I hear otherwise.

 

-numpf