SubSpace Java Client

[JoWie]

What do you mean by no central authority?

 

Right now Java Space (Aphelion) is being worked on by Jabjab and JoWie (maybe others). If something goes wrong, or an update is needed. Does this mean people will not need to rely on you? locate you? etc. Everyone can access and work on the code? So the client itself is not dependent upon one person? Is that what you mean by no central authority?

 

What is the copyleft?

 

That is exactly what it means.

Currently the license is AGPL3. Which guarantees that if other people modify it, they must also make their modifications open source (and I could take those modifications and add back it to "my" distribution).

See https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl

It's annoying that the word "free" has multiple meanings in English, gratis and "libre" (freedom). Aphelion is free as in libre.

 

This also means people can enter a zone with custom clients. (this is why the networking protocol is very different from continuum's).

 

An extension of this is that while we will probably provide some default services (such as password authentication, directory, etc). You could replace all those services by your own.

This is also reflected in the policies those services will run under. For example the password authentications only performs bans when you abuse the password service itself (denial of service, etc). Bans for cheating, swearing, whatever, will never happen at the password service.

 

At the moment, we have not released anything because we would not want to disappoint.

Edited November 18, 2012 by JoWie

[Dr Brain]

Aphelion is free as in libre.

 

Despite what the GNU foundation might have you believe, the GPL is not free as in libre, as you cannot do whatever you want with it. The AGPL restricts even more of your rights.

 

If you understand this and are choosing it for political reasons, then I won't post further on the subject. But most software developers don't understand the GPL and choose it because it's the cool thing to do.

 

If you're looking to open source to make your work useful to others (rather than just as a marketing gimmick), the BSD license (or similar) is a better choice.

[silentdragon]

The GPL is extremely simple and I would disagree with you that "Most software developers don't understand the GPL" but I might agree with you that they "choose it because it's the cool thing to do" but I personally think software should be freely available.

 

The GPL only restricts people from completely profiteering off of you without their personal contribution being equally available. Tons of software is licensed GPL and still wildly profitable. Even huge corporations regularly contribute to; modify; profit off of; and make their contributions publicly available. Microsoft is one of the largest contributors to GPL and really all open-source software in the world.

 

It is healthy to make these things open source and GPL protects it to the extent someone is willing to pursue legally. SubSpace without an open source platform or a supporting company to maintain a release will become little more than a LAN party that it almost already is.

[JoWie]

I got my preference for the GPL from reading stallmans biography (I know someone who worked on that book). (Although, if I would make a library I would use BSD or LGPL.)

If someone uses my work, I want them to share things they do with my work. I actually read the entire agpl3 license a while back.

 

You can argue for both GPL and BSD that they are freer than the other.

In GPL I force you to be GPL compatible too, so that is a restriction. But that restriction also creates more freedom.

 

 

There will be an exception for assets that you create yourself though (graphics, maps, sounds). (I think this is already the case legally, but it is good to be explicit)

Edited November 18, 2012 by JoWie

[Dr Brain]

The GPL is extremely simple and I would disagree with you that "Most software developers don't understand the GPL" but I might agree with you that they "choose it because it's the cool thing to do" but I personally think software should be freely available.

 

Having read the GPL and having understood the implications of the GPL are two very different things, and that difference is the reason I brought up the subject. I wanted to make sure JoWie and Jabjabjab understood what they were doing and had reasons for doing so.

 

In GPL I force you to be GPL compatible too, so that is a restriction. But that restriction also creates more freedom.

 

All other things being equal, yes, but you're assuming someone will be writing changes without regard to the license. That's simply not true. I, for one, no longer contribute to GPL projects, as I believe they're eroding our freedoms as programmers.

 

Anyway, you know what you're doing so I won't harp on about it any more. Sorry for the distraction.

[»jabjabjab]

I'm glad that people want to make things open, and i certainly support that. Sure I might not really know the best licensing but I know JoWie has a great head on his shoulders, and I don't want to limit our community as much as it has been for so long (if Aphelion becomes to further our lovely legacy of course )

[silentdragon]

The core of this is that we all recognize that one of the major problems with SubSpace/Continuum is that it is being so inappropriately managed and locked down for no reason the community has suffered.

 

Obviously this game would naturally die off anyway, as things like this do, but Priitk and others are smothering it with a pillow.

 

Open Source and Transparency is only going to help keep things going, I would be extremely surprised to see anything "stolen" from a game designed in 1995 and its subsequent open-source project aimed at cloning it.

 

Cheating is a threat, but openness will help crush that much more effectively as well.

[Camel]

So when Aphelion and Phoenix gets released, both clients will consume a part of the current Continuum population (depending on how popular they become). Could the release of these clients actually do more harm than good to our community by splitting it into 3 groups?

[aesop]

Why are there 2 separate development teams working on two versions of the same game?

 

Edit:

 

I see now that there are two individuals who are creating updated versions of the same game. What are the chances we can get them to work together on one version?

Edited November 21, 2012 by aesop

[Cheese]

theyre creating 2 different games in 2 different programming languages

 

you tell me

[Dav]

Cheese hit the nail on the head.

 

More specifically both projects are not the same game, rather they are inspired by subspace and continuum. The games themselves will have similar core gameplay (from what I understand) but add their own unique features, look and feel and go about very different implementation.

 

There are actually four projects underway at the minute, all at different levels of completeness and making different rates of progress.

 

What happens to the current community when these clients are ready for public release is indeed an interesting and important question. I suppose it will all come down to which client can offer current players and devs what they want and which can pull in new players. I think its something that will need to be discussed, but not until a new client going fully open is on the horizon.

[Lone Outlaw]

Honestly Richard is making the most progress according to him. And from what i've seen. The java client started earlier, but i don't know. Part of it will be decided by who finishes first. And i wouldn't bet that the community actually get's split, you would need a good initial population for that, and currently from 1000 online everyday of a pool of 5000 players, we are down to around 500 online, and 1000 or more players. No way 250 play on one client, while 250 play at another. It is likely that whichever client picks up first, will just continue to gain ground, people want to be where there is 1. people 2. established zones. And being first to finish your client will ensure you are the first with established zones most likely.

 

i highly doubt there will be a split let alone a significant split unless there are some very special circumstances.. However the solution to the problem i was getting at, is if servers and zones did set up on Phoenix client first, in the event Aphelion was completely not used ever, because all the zones and players were on Phoenix client, then couldn't we have the Java client given access to those servers, so anyone can play on Phoenix zones, from the java client (Aphelion), thus allowing game play from browser/phones.

 

i think Aphelion could be easily adapted to do that, since it's already set up to connect to continuum zones no?

 

Again i am speaking of one possible scenario, take no offense. It could likewise be the other way around, or Aphelion might even reach Beta stage first. (Of course we understand there is no competition here) Not what i am getting at, and i wouldn't concern myself with petty things like that.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Resol]

In order to migrate the community, you would first have to get every zone to shut down on continuum, otherwise, people will stay there.

 

Also, just shutting down all the zones wouldn't mean the players would seek the new client, they might just quit.

[Lone Outlaw]

Why would they quit? Because they don't like the new client? Unlikely, both new clients offer improvements, unless people hate a better continuum or improved client, they won't quit. They wouldn't see the new clients as being an improvement? Well i don't see how, both clients offer everything continuum does, keeping the same feel, game-play aspects, and look, they only add more to customization or security.

 

The only reason people wouldn't seek the new client, is if they don't know about it, but im sure zones on continuum just wouldn't decide to shut down today, and be offline tomorrow, they will still be online in continuum anywhere from 1 to 6 months, disabling events and bots/modules, as they transition those events and bots/modules to phoenix or Aphelion servers. The last thing to be cancelled would be the zones league. And by then 1-6 months would have gone by already, allowing for most of their player base to be informed of the transition to the new client, and the new server. You can expect to lose maybe 10% of players, but then everyone who is out of the loop would come to SSforums eventually to see if continuum is dead. And they would find ssforums supporting the new client.

 

People who are not curious enough to do a google search or ask a friend, well who needs them around.

 

Plus im sure once a client becomes successful, and has most of the population, GETcontinuum will be updated to GetAphelion or GetPhoenix, while keeping the continuum search tags, domain name, etc for google searches.

 

So basically if the zones are shut down, they should be given 1 to 6 months to shut themselves down, or transition to the new client, whatever the client may be. And honestly i wouldn't worry if a client is not up to par yet. Because once there is 500-1000 people there, all the coders would step up the game with updates, to make the client better in every aspect. So if there are any faults, eventually they won't exist.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Lone Outlaw

[Dav]

In order to migrate the community, you would first have to get every zone to shut down on continuum, otherwise, people will stay there.

 

Also, just shutting down all the zones wouldn't mean the players would seek the new client, they might just quit.

 

Shutting down zones wont be required, getting support of community heads and zone owners to advertise and aid migration will be needed.

 

It can be made to happen, especially if zone owners and ops are offered roles in the new game. However politics could be a road block. There are always those who want to cling to their positions or force their way into a position of power. Nevertheless IF the new client begins to draw enough people over, the flood will eventually be unstoppable.

 

I would like to hope that it can be done smoothly as a united community, but only time will tell.

[»Lynx]

People will just make better zones.

[Dav]

This is true, I was meerly speaking about a smooth and quick transition. Ultimatly people will play the best client and/or zones politics or not.