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Unix · February 24, 2011

Of course making system optimizer obsolete, good job.

No, because there is still a purpose for system optimizer. You went from one extreme to the next, either it's the exact same or it's so good that it'll make the other addon sig obsolete.

I think I made valid points, those items are more than feasible and can be balanced to within your standards. Those items would also be useful and not be overpowered whether they are a sig or not.

PlayWolf · February 24, 2011

Basically all it is missing is mobility, still making system op obsolete due to that there is already a system optimizing item, trying to make a new one with copying most from system op, eeeehhh... come on.. I've seen better inventions from my 11 year old brother..

spidernl · February 24, 2011

Of course making system optimizer obsolete, good job.
No, because there is still a purpose for system optimizer. You went from one extreme to the next, either it's the exact same or it's so good that it'll make the other addon sig obsolete.

I think I made valid points, those items are more than feasible and can be balanced to within your standards. Those items would also be useful and not be overpowered whether they are a sig or not.

You still don't get it it seems. How do you intend to balance Cyclone? That's bound result in an item named "HE Missile". Which we already had last time I checked.

Your Optimizer clone has no function whatsoever. It just does what System Optimizer does in a slightly different way designed for gun and bomb spam (as if energy costs aren't low enough as is).

About Venting Coils.. I guess you just don't understand that copy pasting items, powering them down and giving them a different name and item type is completely unnecessary.

But yeah, be as stubborn as you want to be.

Edited February 24, 2011 by spidernl

Unix · February 24, 2011

You balance cyclone by the fact that it's a signature item. That alone can and will deter people from using it. If they have to sacrifice a sig spot for the ability to spam something or possibly shoot faster bombs that are lvl2, some might not view it as worthwhile. You can also up the cost to shoot the bomb, that way even if you do spam it, the likelihood of you being able to survive after 3-4 shots is extremely low. There are ways to balance it.

Efficiency Booster does serve a very worthy purpose. What other item can help your weapons improve? What other item can give your ship a boost in terms of offense without getting a sig weapon? Also, last I checked, there was only one item that lowers bombdelay, and that's a 5m item.

Venting Coils is meant to be a downgrade of Radiating Coils. That's the entire purpose, that way you can get the benefits of Radiating Coils, but not to the extreme. There is only one nonsig item that even helps against inactshrap, other than exoskeleton, there is no item besides Radiating Coils that is an armor against proxless shrap bombs.

I've proven also that many of the items are built on the foundation of either an item that is powered up or an item that is powered down. Phaser and Sharrpinger, Omega and Baryon, Solid Nutronium and Adamantine Armor, Disruptor to Positron, Gamma and Pulse are nearly identical even.

Just because they're downgraded or even upgraded doesnt mean no one will use it. I bet any one of those three items by themselves would have more users than quad core and oracle combined. There was even a point in which Field Generator had nearly 3-4x the amount of users of those two sig items combined and Fields were disabled for nearly a year.

I'm not even going to argue about the balance, if they're not balanced in your opinions, get them to the numbers you would believe they ARE balanced then. These items can be useful and players would be willing to use these items. Just because they are downgraded doesnt mean they arent going to be used, doesnt mean they shouldnt be developed and especially doesnt mean they shouldnt be put in the game. If the issue is balance, then simply balance them. I can think of several builds that can utilize any of those three items.

Efficiency Booster and Venting Coils especially both fulfill a vacancy in Hyperspace that is seriously lacking. Efficiency Booster aids in your offensive capability without relying on a signature weapon and Venting Coils gives another armor that can be used and at the same time not just in base against bursts, but in center where proxless shrap bombs would have an effective armor against them. There isnt really a whole lot that can be used effectively against falcon/cluster.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Unix

spidernl · February 24, 2011

You balance cyclone by the fact that it's a signature item. That alone can and will deter people from using it. If they have to sacrifice a sig spot for the ability to spam something or possibly shoot faster bombs that are lvl2, some might not view it as worthwhile. You can also up the cost to shoot the bomb, that way even if you do spam it, the likelihood of you being able to survive after 3-4 shots is extremely low. There are ways to balance it.

Yes, you balance it like that. But you'll have to balance it to such an extent, that it'll be a boosted HE Missile. Which isn't quite as interesting as a super low delay super high DPS superweapon, now is it.

Also, are you surprised devs don't want to be bothered with rebalancing every suggestion? If some players don't grasp the concept of balance, why care to even look at their suggestions.

Efficiency Booster does serve a very worthy purpose. What other item can help your weapons improve? What other item can give your ship a boost in terms of offense without getting a sig weapon? Also, last I checked, there was only one item that lowers bombdelay, and that's a 5m item.

Which is probably the reason the bombdelay reduction would be the first thing to go. I also bolded the part where you answer your own question. No problem for that.

Venting Coils is meant to be a downgrade of Radiating Coils. That's the entire purpose, that way you can get the benefits of Radiating Coils, but not to the extreme. There is only one nonsig item that even helps against inactshrap, other than exoskeleton, there is no item besides Radiating Coils that is an armor against proxless shrap bombs.

You answered your own question again. Also, check out Shock Matrix for protection against proxless bombs.

I've proven also that many of the items are built on the foundation of either an item that is powered up or an item that is powered down. Phaser and Sharrpinger, Omega and Baryon, Solid Nutronium and Adamantine Armor, Disruptor to Positron, Gamma and Pulse are nearly identical even.

You forgot to mention some important details about your example items. Remember how Sharppinger and Gamma both used to be (near) zero ammo use? Also, seriously, bringing 5m items into the balance discussion? Are you trying to be funny?

PlayWolf · February 24, 2011

Gaw, tl;dr

Omega and Baryon

Try beta to Omega, they are very more similar

Poison Ink · February 24, 2011

I think this thread has perfectly demonstrated why we have no new content.

There is not nearly enough people actively creating/balancing items. Look at this thread, and see how far we have gotten in creating/balancing items.

We need to involve the ENTIRE player base in new items, not just the minuscule amount of people on the forum.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Poison Ink

Cheese · February 25, 2011

good demonstration of:

staff> i dont like unix's items, so lets not have any new items at all

P Nut · February 25, 2011

I think this thread has perfectly demonstrated why we have no new content.
There is not nearly enough people actively creating/balancing items. Look at this thread, and see how far we have gotten in creating/balancing items.
We need to involve the ENTIRE player base in new items, not just the minuscule amount of people on the forum.

This thread's only purpose is to kickstart a movement towards new items being developed. Even after ideas are thrown around they have to be discussed heavily. It will be a lengthy process but we're heading in the right direction.

spidernl · February 25, 2011

+-------------------+  
| Slipstream        |  
+-----------+-------+----+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Buy Price | Sell Price | Exp   | Ships    | Max | Ammo             | Item Types                      |  
| $67000    | $24000     | 6800  | 12  56   | 1   | None             | Signature, Armor                |  
+-----------+------------+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Modifies a ship for maximum agility at the cost of reduced hull integrity.                           |  
+------------------+----------------+------------------------------------------------------------------+  
| Property Name    | Property Value |
+------------------+----------------+
| bulletdamage     | +16            |
| bulletdamageup   | +8             |
| bombdamage       | +90            |
| ebombdamage      | +40            |
| speed            | +3             |
| maxspeed         | +2             |
| thrust           | +2             |
| maxthrust        | +2             |
| rotation         | +1             |
+------------------+----------------+

Unix> omg dis item iz 2 weak 2 be word it

Edited February 25, 2011 by spidernl

Unix · February 25, 2011

+-------------------+  
| Slipstream        |  
+-----------+-------+----+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Buy Price | Sell Price | Exp   | Ships    | Max | Ammo             | Item Types                      |  
| $67000    | $24000     | 6800  | 12  56   | 1   | None             | Signature, Armor                |  
+-----------+------------+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Modifies a ship for maximum agility at the cost of reduced hull integrity.                           |  
+------------------+----------------+------------------------------------------------------------------+  
| Property Name    | Property Value |
+------------------+----------------+
| bulletdamage     | +16            |
| bulletdamageup   | +8             |
| bombdamage       | +90            |
| ebombdamage      | +40            |
| speed            | +3             |
| maxspeed         | +2             |
| thrust           | +2             |
| maxthrust        | +2             |
| rotation         | +1             |
+------------------+----------------+

Unix> omg dis item iz 2 weak 2 be word it

Actually, if anything I think it's too good.

PlayWolf · February 25, 2011

Too many signatures!

spidernl · February 25, 2011

+-------------------+  
| Slipstream        |  
+-----------+-------+----+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Buy Price | Sell Price | Exp   | Ships    | Max | Ammo             | Item Types                      |  
| $67000    | $24000     | 6800  | 12  56   | 1   | None             | Signature, Armor                |  
+-----------+------------+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Modifies a ship for maximum agility at the cost of reduced hull integrity.                           |  
+------------------+----------------+------------------------------------------------------------------+  
| Property Name    | Property Value |
+------------------+----------------+
| bulletdamage     | +16            |
| bulletdamageup   | +8             |
| bombdamage       | +90            |
| ebombdamage      | +40            |
| speed            | +3             |
| maxspeed         | +2             |
| thrust           | +2             |
| maxthrust        | +2             |
| rotation         | +1             |
+------------------+----------------+

Unix> omg dis item iz 2 weak 2 be word it

Actually, if anything I think it's too good.

Up the negatives a bit. I don't think the positives on this one are overdoing it, compare taking this item with a non-signature sub to taking a signature sub.

Corey · February 25, 2011

Wow that slipstream is really op. +2 thrust and +2 speed are a lot.

Unix · February 25, 2011

The item itself isnt bad, the numbers just need to be tweaked. There was some talk about Slipstream coming back in some form in previous topics, between players that is.

To balance this item out, I would think either increasing the negatives more or decreasing the benefits, there's also the possibility of a little bit of each, otherwise I do think it's a nice item.

You could also have increased inactshrap damage, and other forms of damage. There's also the possibility of decreasing its offensive capabilities such as increasing fire delay or cost even. There are lots of possibilities to make it more balanced.

Also, the big thing is that not only the speed/thrust being increased, but the maxspeed/maxthrust being increased as well.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Unix

PlayWolf · February 25, 2011

If that really came out, I'd stick with omega or beta instead. Not Worth the damage and horrible speed.

I mean of course if it had more mobility, it'd be considered!

Edited February 25, 2011 by Wolfie

Unix · February 25, 2011

The thing is you can have Beta with this item... It's an armor.

So you can combine whatever sublight with this... It's additive.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Unix

PlayWolf · February 25, 2011

Oh, Didn't pay attention to the type.

spidernl · February 25, 2011

The thing is you can have Beta with this item... It's an armor.

So you can combine whatever sublight with this... It's additive.

Compare Beta or Carnot with Slipstream to good old Omega Drive:

With beta:
+------------------+----------------+
| bulletdamage     | +16            | 
| bulletdamageup   | +8             | 
| bombdamage       | +90            | 
| ebombdamage      | +40            | 
| speed            | +6             | 
| maxspeed         | +3             | 
| thrust           | +4             | 
| maxthrust        | +3             | 
| rotation         | +3             | 
| afterburner      | -2             |
+------------------+----------------+

With carnot:
+------------------+----------------+
| bulletdamage     | +16            | 
| bulletdamageup   | +8             | 
| bombdamage       | +90            | 
| ebombdamage      | +40            | 
| speed            | +8             | 
| maxspeed         | +0             | !
| thrust           | +7             | 
| maxthrust        | -1             | !
| rotation         | +2             |
| afterburner      | +2             | 
+------------------+----------------+

Omega: 
+------------------+----------------+
| speed            | +6             | <-- Equal to Beta, inferior to Carnot
| maxspeed         | +3             | <-- Equal to Beta, superior to Carnot
| thrust           | +6             | <-- Superior to Beta, slightly inferior to Carnot
| maxthrust        | +2             | <-- Slightly inferior to Beta, superior to Carnot
| rotation         | +4             | <-- Superior to both
| afterburner      | -3             | <-- Superior to both(far superior to carnot)
+------------------+----------------+

^Add to that the fact that Carnot/Beta combined with Slipstream have NEGATIVE armor and the Omega user has POSITIVE armor (as in negative damage 'bonuses'), even if the numbers need to be tweaked it's kind of far fetched to consider it highly overpowered right now.

Disclaimer: I didn't pay too much attention to the 'maths' in this post, so there might be some mistakes. Hopefully not.

Edited February 25, 2011 by spidernl

Cheese · February 25, 2011

+-------------------+  
| Slipstream        |  
+-----------+-------+----+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Buy Price | Sell Price | Exp   | Ships    | Max | Ammo             | Item Types                      |  
| $67000    | $24000     | 6800  | 12  56   | 1   | None             |  Armor                |  
+-----------+------------+-------+----------+-----+------------------+---------------------------------+  
| Modifies a ship for maximum agility at the cost of reduced hull integrity.                           |  
+------------------+----------------+------------------------------------------------------------------+  
| Property Name    | Property Value |
+------------------+----------------+
| bulletdamage     | +20            |
| bulletdamageup   | +10            |
| bombdamage       | +100           |
| ebombdamage      | +50            |
| speed            | +2             |
| maxspeed         | +1             |
| thrust           | +2             |
| maxthrust        | +1             |
| rotation         | +2             |
+------------------+----------------+

balanced your item for you

also removed sig

Edited February 26, 2011 by Cheese

Unix · February 26, 2011

------------------------------------------+

| Property Name | Property Value |

+------------------+----------------+

| speed | +3 |

| maxspeed | +2 |

| thrust | +2 |

| maxthrust | +2 |

| rotation | +1 |

+------------------+----------------+

Icefire:

| speed | +10 |

| maxspeed | +5 |

| thrust | +1 |

| maxthrust | +1 |

| rotation | +5 |

Much faster than what Omega is and even Baryon, yet still has a "decent" Thrust. If you then combine it with maxwell and fins...

Reflection/H2 Ramscoop:

| speed | +4 |

| maxspeed | +1 |

| thrust | +3 |

| maxthrust | +1 |

| rotation | +0 |

Not super horrible.

Ion:

| speed | +7 |

| maxspeed | +2 |

| thrust | +5 |

| maxthrust | +2 |

| rotation | +4 |

This would be almost exactly on par with Omega, with it only having greater speed, otherwise equal to or less than Omega.

Retro Rockets:

| speed | +4 |

| maxspeed | +3 |

| thrust | +8 |

| maxthrust | +4 |

| rotation | -1 |

Might potentially be more potent than Flash Drive in terms of instant movement without using the afterburners. Has +1 Thrust over Flash.

Overthruster:

| speed | +2 |

| maxspeed | +1 |

| thrust | +6 |

| maxthrust | +3 |

| rotation | +8 |

High thrust with amazing rotation, almost like retro with insane rotation?

Nuclear Booster:

| speed | +11 |

| maxspeed | +2 |

| thrust | +10 |

| maxthrust | +1 |

| rotation | -5 |

Just makes Nuclear Booster a little bit faster, not a serious issue, because it doesnt have enough rotation to cause any serious issues compared to using System Optimizer, even with Inertial and Fins, it only has -2 rotation. For terr/wzl it might be interesting to try?

As is might be interesting enough to try, but it still is probably overpowered.

Kilo · February 26, 2011

I thought I wouldn't need to remind you guys

but "higher" rotation isn't always "better"

Gradius · February 26, 2011

I like to keep a mid set of rotation, too high rotation and end up over aiming or too low and not aiming enough.

omni · February 26, 2011

High rotation is always better in HS.

You just have to be good at using it.

spidernl · February 26, 2011

------------------------------------------+
| Property Name | Property Value |
+------------------+----------------+
| speed | +3 |
| maxspeed | +2 |
| thrust | +2 |
| maxthrust | +2 |
| rotation | +1 |
+------------------+----------------+

Icefire:
| speed | +10 |
| maxspeed | +5 |
| thrust | +1 |
| maxthrust | +1 |
| rotation | +5 |

Much faster than what Omega is and even Baryon, yet still has a "decent" Thrust. If you then combine it with maxwell and fins...

Reflection/H2 Ramscoop:
| speed | +4 |
| maxspeed | +1 |
| thrust | +3 |
| maxthrust | +1 |
| rotation | +0 |

Not super horrible.

Ion:
| speed | +7 |
| maxspeed | +2 |
| thrust | +5 |
| maxthrust | +2 |
| rotation | +4 |

This would be almost exactly on par with Omega, with it only having greater speed, otherwise equal to or less than Omega.

Retro Rockets:
| speed | +4 |
| maxspeed | +3 |
| thrust | +8 |
| maxthrust | +4 |
| rotation | -1 |

Might potentially be more potent than Flash Drive in terms of instant movement without using the afterburners. Has +1 Thrust over Flash.

Overthruster:
| speed | +2 |
| maxspeed | +1 |
| thrust | +6 |
| maxthrust | +3 |
| rotation | +8 |

High thrust with amazing rotation, almost like retro with insane rotation?

Nuclear Booster:
| speed | +11 |
| maxspeed | +2 |
| thrust | +10 |
| maxthrust | +1 |
| rotation | -5 |

Just makes Nuclear Booster a little bit faster, not a serious issue, because it doesnt have enough rotation to cause any serious issues compared to using System Optimizer, even with Inertial and Fins, it only has -2 rotation. For terr/wzl it might be interesting to try?

As is might be interesting enough to try, but it still is probably overpowered.

All of those items seem to have significantly lower stats in some areas than the items you compare them to. The icefire combo has low enough thrust for that speed to be hard to reach. Also, just being really fast but incapable of slowing down quickly without using afterburner is pretty useless. I'd personally choose between Sysopt and Slipstream on a terr build, yes, but neither is superior to the other (The Sysopt build will obviously have alot of superior areas, being higher recharge, energy, armor & low stealth/cloak costs.

I fail to see why any of these combinations is overpowered. Just because you can get one stat really high doesn't suddenly make a ship overpowered (at least not with maneuverability). Take a look at the Icefire + Maxwell + Tunnel runner + Inertial build. You'll have a super efficient afterburner and insane afterburner speed, but that doesn't make it an effective build.

Edit: You also fail to mention that those 'equal to Omega' builds would still have a 12.5% increased level 1 bullet damage 'weakness', bomb weakness and level 2+ gun weakness (to a lesser extent) compared to Omega having PROTECTION against any of those types by choosing an armor.

That and "if you then combine it with item A and item B" is a moot point, you can add those items to an Omega or Baryon build just as well.

Edit 2: Now that I think about it.. Are you arguing that the item is overpowered because it is possible to combine it with other items in such a way that you can specialize your ship to be better in a certain stat than it could be without the item's existance? You do realize the point of a new item is to allow such combinations, right? Otherwise you'd be introducing an item that is completely inferior to existing options, making it pretty, uh, useless.

Edited February 26, 2011 by spidernl

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