Incursions!

[Dr Brain]

That's right LC, it there has to be synergy within the modernized framework of the hierarchical designators.

[XO-MANOWAR]

Gentlemen..lets keep this passive...........

[PoLiX]

The jist I get of all of this is...

 

Hoch goes to shutdown DSB because he wants it to go out in Glory, and doesn't agree the zone is doing fine, even though he never seems to login or be online.

Hoch then decides not to after Argyle tries to have him give him the zone / talks him out of it, and SSC threatens to support a new dsb. "Change of Heart"

Hoch then, in order to prove us all wrong, allows things to get a bit chaotic, strikes fear into his staff, says his players should have no input in the zone and just accept whatever he wants to give them (while again barely logging in to even know what they want anymore anyways), and lets the zone run itself into the ground. Thus proving us all wrong, and making himself right that the zone was going to die.

 

Just my own summerizing of everything I have read. Not sure it is 100% right or true, but does sound like a real possibility.

 

Greater words never said: "You're fighting with a lawyer, don't you realize you'll never win as he'll never believe he is wrong?"

 

...

[Cheese]

as i said, sometimes when fighting a chronic rapist you have to catch aids and let it happen

 

 

http://forums.trenchwars.org/images/newsmilies/sorcerer.gif

[SeVeR]

Hoch goes to shutdown DSB because he wants it to go out in Glory' date=' and doesn't agree the zone is doing fine, even though he never seems to login or be online.

Hoch then decides not to after Argyle tries to have him give him the zone / talks him out of it, and SSC threatens to support a new dsb. "Change of Heart"

Hoch then, in order to prove us all wrong, allows things to get a bit chaotic, strikes fear into his staff, says his players should have no input in the zone and just accept whatever he wants to give them (while again barely logging in to even know what they want anymore anyways), and lets the zone run itself into the ground. Thus proving us all wrong, and making himself right that the zone was going to die.[/quote'] Sounds about right actually. It would be interesting to hear from Greenish and Fly Swatter to see just how much Hoch has prevented their ideas getting seen.

 

Can whoever has the power, please just get rid of this hoching egomaniac?

[Delic]

Also I think Delic has good ideas to make 6vs6 successful and staff should

include him and a few others in meetings and production of the league. Delic

there is definitely a large chance this new map league would be a bust, and

6vs6 would pave the way as the main league. You just have to be content with

developing it and hosting it in August.

 

Bit of a misquote there. That was you talking about me, not me saying that >=)

[Avast]

Also I think Delic has good ideas to make 6vs6 successful and staff should

include him and a few others in meetings and production of the league. Delic

there is definitely a large chance this new map league would be a bust, and

6vs6 would pave the way as the main league. You just have to be content with

developing it and hosting it in August.

 

Bit of a misquote there. That was you talking about me, not me saying that >=)

 

Yeah thanks, mixed it up by accident

[Samapico]

I figured... Delic isn't cool enough to talk about himself at the 3rd person like that

[Avast]

Anyway this belongs in this thread

 

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

Edited February 8, 2011 by Avast

[Hakaku]

Falco, just come back to Deva, all your problems solved

[Manwh0re]

And after all my constructive criticism, SUPPORT of other people, and even everyone agreeing with me. Manwhore was still entering every thread I posted in and calling for staff to BAN me from forums. Probably because he is mad at me. Sadly he doesn't realize if staff bans me for just talking, they will one day ban him for even less, because they won't like him anymore. Supporting one injustice means it will happen to you one day. The right thing to do is support what is right. Not who you like.

 

Dear Hoch, the rest of staff, and whomever else...

 

This is so overdue. This forum has stage IV terminal troll cancer and it needs some ban radiation therapy ASAP. Falc has proven time and time again that he is incapable of contributing anything of value to any discussion and his posts are at least 90% troll fluff. Please, for the love of DSB, deal with this kid.

 

 

 

I'm a bit incredulous at the fact that I find myself replying to you, but let me get to the point. I firmly stand behind that statement. DSB is in a state of crisis and the ongoing debates in our league forum from the past few months will ultimately determine the future of this zone. Your posts, like the ones in this thread, are long-winded and in general lacking substance (although to give you some credit, you seem to have cleaned up your act a bit on here; kudos). Any of you non-DSBers can view his posts for yourself over at forums.deathstarbattle.com in the DSB League section, username Valour Ant. Your posts sabotage and derail actual debate. Plenty of casual forum readers--myself included--were completely turned off from reading the forums and contributing to the debates because of YOU. Not everyone wants to spend hours a day reading page after page of rambling nonsense. I would LOVE to read a few pages of logic and useful contribution, but sadly you are INCAPABLE of bringing either of those things to the table. Compound this all with the fact that you are absolutely terrible at this game, rude to everyone you talk to, disliked by the majority of the DSB community for your trolling habits to which you GLOAT about, and to me it is quite clear that your absence is not missed. As evidence of that point, please look at the USEFUL DEBATE going on in the threads since your departure. I'm sorry Falc, but you've been way beyond your 9 lives for years.

[Avast]

And after all my constructive criticism, SUPPORT of other people, and even everyone agreeing with me. Manwhore was still entering every thread I posted in and calling for staff to BAN me from forums. Probably because he is mad at me. Sadly he doesn't realize if staff bans me for just talking, they will one day ban him for even less, because they won't like him anymore. Supporting one injustice means it will happen to you one day. The right thing to do is support what is right. Not who you like.

 

Dear Hoch, the rest of staff, and whomever else...

 

This is so overdue. This forum has stage IV terminal troll cancer and it needs some ban radiation therapy ASAP. Falc has proven time and time again that he is incapable of contributing anything of value to any discussion and his posts are at least 90% troll fluff. Please, for the love of DSB, deal with this kid.

 

I'm a bit incredulous at the fact that I find myself replying to you, but let me get to the point. I firmly stand behind that statement. DSB is in a state of crisis and the ongoing debates in our league forum from the past few months will ultimately determine the future of this zone. Your posts, like the ones in this thread, are long-winded and in general lacking substance (although to give you some credit, you seem to have cleaned up your act a bit on here; kudos). Any of you non-DSBers can view his posts for yourself over at forums.deathstarbattle.com in the DSB League section, username Valour Ant. Your posts sabotage and derail actual debate. Plenty of casual forum readers--myself included--were completely turned off from reading the forums and contributing to the debates because of YOU. Not everyone wants to spend hours a day reading page after page of rambling nonsense. I would LOVE to read a few pages of logic and useful contribution, but sadly you are INCAPABLE of bringing either of those things to the table. Compound this all with the fact that you are absolutely terrible at this game, rude to everyone you talk to, disliked by the majority of the DSB community for your trolling habits to which you GLOAT about, and to me it is quite clear that your absence is not missed. As evidence of that point, please look at the USEFUL DEBATE going on in the threads since your departure. I'm sorry Falc, but you've been way beyond your 9 lives for years.

 

You never made any points except to ban me. So don't talk to me about contributing to topics. The most you ever contribute is that you write "I agree with this person" That is not actually bringing anything to the table, all you ever do is agree with someone else, or disagree, you never offer a self determined opinion or different perspective. When I posted I always offered a different perspective and it was a perspective of a player who captains a rookie squad. You being 'high and mighty' pro player obviously disagree with my views and because we so often disagree you see it fit to say that I don't provide constructive points to debates. Just because someone supports the other side of a debate does not mean they are not contributing. Someone always has to support the other side. And further more if I am wrong it would prove whatever points you are trying to make. Regardless I agree that 6vs6 league should be run, I agreed with testing and trying this map for a league, but view it as not ready and agree that the community does not accept the map. I always agreed league should NOT be 9vs9. So I really fail to see where you can go around saying I derailed or prolonged anything and try to pin something on me, where obviously the real issue is DSB staff. And everyone knows my forum name on DSB forums, I did post a screenshot of it you know? As If I ever had anything to hide. I have never cleaned up my act, I am the same, if you view me as being different it's because you are looking more carefully instead of being blinded by your trolling rage.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Avast

[Avast]

You just like Hoch can discredit me all you want, but you can't change facts this isn't a popularity contest. And you just like Hoch tarnished your own image. I didn't go around asking for people to be banned and calling them cancer noobs now did I? So don't take your anger out on me for your own actions. But I congratulate you, this is the first time you offered your point of view, Instead of posting BAN THIS IDIOT. Maybe posting on SSFORUMS served to clean up your act. Or maybe you know that on SSFORUMS there is no Ban happy Moderators that can be used as your tool. Edited February 10, 2011 by Avast
No need to quote quotes of quoted quotes

[Avast]

Oh and since Manwhore mentions current state of affairs on DSB forums.

Here is a bit of news (a post on DSB-forums) from Seriel Killer, another Developer and Staffer who quit.

 

Temb, the thing is that if I apply for a ref I have to go through Beer Hunter, he decides if I am good enough to be a ref.

Secondly: When I ref league matchs and I have an issue I have to consult with SMOD, that means Beer Hunter.

Thirdly: I will probably receive e-mails or get scheduled to matchs by him, if I have a problem with one of the schedules I would have to talk to him.

 

As a whole it's sounds like i'm whining over nothing but for people who have been through working with Beer, listening to what he has to say about things, knows what he does and doesn't do... those things are a big deal.

 

Now, they say he stepped down to SMOD and Dakrn is sysop or league co-ordinator (whatever you wanna call it), I hardly see the difference, obviously things would run better since they were really really bad, mostly because of Beer for sure.

 

I don't know who really had the final say in every single decision, Beer or Hoch but as a logical person I'm thinking that if Hoch had the final say that means people have been blaming Beer for years for no good reason and if that were true there are 2 options:

1. Beer has inhuman abilities to absorb hatred from other people.

2. He is simply stupid.

I mean, what kind of sane person would take all that crap from people for years and still do his job (volunterily), if he wasn't the one doing the decisions why hasn't he told other people it's Hoch that's making the decisions?

 

So I come to a conclusion that he was the one that made all the decisions. There's no possible way you would stand up to all that trash talk for years taking the blame for someone else.

 

Hoch is no saint as well but I can't really blame him the way I blame Beer since, well, for one he's paying for this server, two, he's the server sysop and sscu server bang admin (who knows what else)... i'm just a player, it's like a word of a cop vs a word of a junkie.

I'm not saying i'm blaming beer this hard because it would bring more effect, people know how I feel about current staffers.

For example: Public has been left out COMPLETELY ever since the server drop-down a couple of months ago, Hoch hasn't done shit to make it better besides this new map (which he didn't make of course) despite the fact I implored him to start weekend themes, make maps, host events etc.

 

I know most of the people feel like me, if people show up to matchs at Sunday then people would show up to ref, volunteers is not something DSB lacks, it's leadership.

 

Also, staff really needs to lay off the damn proceedures like someone must be warned 3 times before they are banned and that ERs don't have powers in pub and vice versa...

When a player see that the zone staff sucks it really puts off all will to play the zone and I have recent DSB history to back that up.

 

As long as Beer will continue to have a say in things, as long as people will have to go through him to become refs and when they have issues they WILL NOT volunteer.

 

I should feel bad about denouncing beer this way, i'm really not that kind of person, but in this case I really don't give a fuck... he's been ruining stuff again and again for years wether if it was his decisions or someone elses.

 

And some IN GAME news

 

So this is how Hoch basically talks to everyone who is worried about the zone they have played in for ten years. Instead of saying he cares and he has a plan he would rather argue about how people should 'address' him. Is that all you view as important Hoch? Anyone who actually put the zone and community first would have all this posturing and bigotry as the last thing on their minds. Yet for some reason this is the only thing on your mind and always has been. Hoch goes on further to say "I don't like playing games". Haha well you made that clear, if you liked to play games maybe the zone wouldn't be dying and you would actually login and dare I say play the game.

 

TLordTango> hoch, what's the plan to keep dsb alive another year?

Hoch> Hello to you too Tango.

TLordTango> hello

TLordTango> you see, we need some leadership now

Hoch> Tango, if you want me attention then removing the inflammatory language is a good start.

TLordTango> I am not trying to insult you

Hoch> I didn't say anything about insults, I wrote inflammatory.

TLordTango> let me

TLordTango> let me phrase it differently then

TLordTango> we need someone with a plan - who has the power to ensure the plan gets executed, and the charisma ensure the plan is loved, and the leadership to pull enough people into executing the plan so that it will succeed

TLordTango> will you be that man?

Hoch> See my above comment Tango. You may like to play games, but I don't.

TLordTango> I'm not playing games [i so hate biting my tongue here and now saying 'I can see that']

Hoch> Then when you can learn how to address properly we will chat. Until that point you will be talking to yourself.

TLordTango> yes lets get hung up over the proper to adress someone until it's only you and me left

TLordTango> this zone is near death, like patient that needs a surgeon to perform a kidney transplant, like a platoon pinned down in a crossfire needs a sergeant to lead them out

TLordTango> I need to know - what /is/ the plan, do you even /have/ a plan?

TLordTango> or will you just full-fill your 'job requirements' till you dont have to anymore cause the patient died and the platoon slaughtered?

Hoch> You'll know when everyone else does. You are not special.

TLordTango> these things are not so much subject to time and place as to getting people motivated to execute it

Hoch> I am happy to discuss future plans. I just choose not to do it with you Tango. I find your patronizing language off-putting Tango.

Makron> so did you want everyone to logon to pub right now so hoch can tell us?

TLordTango> no

Makron> or would you rather have it somewhere official where anyone can read at their leisure

TLordTango> he'll do that anyway

Makron> motivation is kinda of hard to get when you have a player pool of 50 actives

Makron> if that

malmae> awesome zone you got here

TLordTango> he'll have to type out the plan tons of times anyway

TLordTango> to discuss it with tons of ppl

TLordTango> might as well start now

TLordTango> rather than when he logs on again, somewhere in a month's time

TLordTango> but if its not incompetence, which justifies some patronizing language - where is that plan we needed a year ago at latest?

Makron> you mean 6 years ago

Hoch> I've turned off to you now Tango. Next time, think carefully before typing.

TLordTango> feels good, having power, now doesn't it

TLordTango> means you only have to put up with your own shit

 

 

Then to top this all off Hoch doesn't like patronizing language. Well maybe he should re-read every post he has every made on every forum, and every comment he ever made. Because Patronizing and treating the player base as morons is the corner stone of Hoch's conversations. For example the latest post on DSB forums from Hoch.

 

Careful consideration is always given to ideas. But not every idea is good and worthy of widespread

testing.

 

This written, Dakrn has outlined the timeframe for League 13, which is sorely running late. The

recent discussions have, for the most part, been productive and constructive.

 

And a reply by the_snake who used to be Head of the Development team.

 

Hoch, we may be just players, but we are not stupid. Please stop with the patronizing language, and for once say things that actually reflect what is going on.

 

The DSBL13 out line is as followed:

As for a DSBL13 time line, here is what we are looking at:

 

---

1. Final Map decision around Friday, February 18th. We may make changes after L13, but the map will likely be temporarily frozen for the duration of L13.

2. DSBL13 Pre-League: Sunday February 20th and Sunday, February 27th.

3. DSBL13 regular season starts: Sunday, March 6th

4. League will likely end in late May/early June.

5. A much more intensive L14 will be launched in the autumn of 2011.

---

 

Facts: The only idea which was worth exploring, was the 9v9 idea and map brought by league staff. League staff gave careful consideration only to their idea, and as such it was the only one which was explored.

Thankfully for Ent some ideas by sever and fly were put into test for 1 day or two on his bot.

 

Basically all of the discussions since october 2010 were useless, you actually all wasting our time.

 

Hoch, our time is as much as important as yours, or anyone else in staff.

 

With the given time line, I don't see any possibility to test anything aside for what staff as already decided priorly to be considered as their idea - the best one. How could you test fly swatter's idea? how could you test flag distribution idea? what about kill points? flag points? how can all of these discussions and ideas be tested.. by the looks of things, there was never even intention of actually materializing anything else than what staff has decided at around late november..

 

this is all a show, you should have just locked all threads and kept their subject with dakrn/beerh posts, we have wasted too much time discussing things that will never see day light..

 

as such, i will delete all of my topics and threads related to DSBL13, because I don't think staff that doesn't respect what its players say, should get any respect back from the players and be worthy of their ideas and posts.

 

or better put, if you didnt even desire feedback in first place, i will remove it all now.

this is not putting effort for crying, as all my good ideas and comments are quoted anyhow.

 

thanks but no thanks,

 

Snake

Edited February 8, 2011 by Avast

[Adraak]

Guys come on whats the point of fighting each other here? I sincerely thought this thread was to bring up player's thoughts on Hoch, at least that's how I heard from this thread while playing DSB public. Leave the fighting behind or the whole cause of this is going down the drain.

[PoLiX]

Cleaned out the bickering.

 

Keep the thread on topic, or don't post at all.

[Cheese]

well thats no fun

[SeVeR]

Looks like the theme map is no longer going to be the DSB League Map. At least things are going better in DSB now. I assume that was Hoch's doing, so maybe he realised the players had a better idea, or maybe someone had a word in his ear.

[Avast]

More like my ban brought about some of the changes the community wanted.

 

I e-mail Hoch about all the problems I see in the zone.

He doesn't ban me for the e-mails but rather threatens to get rid of me, especially if I inform people of his threat.

I inform everyone.

He bans me 13 years, for breaking this confidentiality that I never agreed to keep.

Then having actually read all my posts and e-mails he does half the things I suggested anyway.

 

If I didn't provoke him

 

Hoch would have done nothing, and staff would have continued failing.

He is only picking up the slack and pretending to care now because peoples attention have shifted to him and the zone which is in crisis.

So far he went from logging in once a month to logging in every single day. That's an impressive change of attitude.

Besides as I have said before Hoch will have to bring DSB back to 100 players for me to feel like I am missing out with his ban.

And anyway that was my goal. So either way I am happy.

 

So remember to think of me, when you are enjoying a better DSB.

 

And remember Hochs policy and management will never change, so while they reversed a few bad decisions (in the last minute) and made the right ones,

the zone will most likely continue to starve to death and remain under an oppressive heel.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Avast

[juh?]

ROFL at so many enjoying falc's ban and TRYING to troll him in the forums. All you noobs who have been trolled by the

Great Troll God Falconeer should ask yourself why its so easy for some random dude from thousands of miles away to annoy you. Falc is one of the best things DSB had going for itself, he's willing to do so much for the zone. Having things out in the open is what best for the community and he was willing to do that even if it meant he got banned. <3 Falc

[Cheese]

noooo, ive been laughing too hard at dsb

lc just pulled a hoch on sscv

 

 

karma is a bitch

[Avast]

noooo, ive been laughing too hard at dsb

lc just pulled a hoch on sscv

 

 

karma is a bitch

 

Hell is the impossibility of reason

[Tembest]

Thinking you caused the changes made in DSB is ridiculous and so egoistic.

Not many of the changes were suggested by you in the first place.

Most people even tend to disagree with your ideas.

But hell, that's how you've always been - thought you're the center of everything.

 

However, if you had a look at the maps in dsbl1, which you naturally can't,

you'd realise we've gone to an even worse version of everything.

7vs7 is good but oh christ... the maps.

 

For once DSB could need your help, because at least according to your own words

you know something about map creation. But then again, according to yourself,

you're the best at pretty much everything.

The current 4 maps we have are disgusting.

Maybe I'll post a screenshot for you once I get home from business trip.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Tembest

[Avast]

Everyone making accounts - or at least first posts, to talk to me. I feel honored - and I mean it.

 

I never said I made the changes - I said my ban brought about some (last minute) changes. And these changes although good in the short term, will never solve the long term problems of poor management and policy. I will get into more of that later on when I am ready to make a larger post.

 

Lets go over what I agreed with just between me and you Tembest.

 

When staff came out positive with promises to improve 12vs12. I supported at least an attempt after 10 years to Improve 12vs12 before scrapping it.

Because of this I could not support Delics 6vs6 Idea as a "Main League" I just felt there was so many ways to improve 12vs12, and this was in 2009, so at the time we had a decent league population of around 250 players. And it seemed that if the proper changes that the community wanted were made, it would have been successful. Regardless despite not approving of 6vs6 as a main league. I never disagreed that we shouldn't have a 6vs6 league.

 

(Sadly I don't remember the series of events - maybe you can clear it up for me Tembest, was that during league 12? or was this attempt to improve 12vs12 the DSB cup?)

 

Recently my opinions have been

 

WHILE THEY PREPARE DAKRNS MAP for a 9vs9 league...

 

1. Babl should be run first (with me and severs suggestions on enhancing the format) - Format, not gameplay, you can search on dsb forums for those suggestions, I think there is a thread in Suggestions forum.

2. 7vs7 should be run next - and delic should be involved in the team that organizes and prepares the league. Using Severs map.

3. In July after these two leagues are over Dakrn would have had enough time to prepare and finish the new Deathstar he was mapping with his team.

 

That was the proper way to do things. YOU never rush a map, that might be something we play for the next 5 years. And march 3rd is a rush. You don't rush creativity or dev work. You just don't. (and in fact you can find a post on Trench wars new map, and how they state they worked on it for 8 months, and called tons of people into the arena - trench wars is a good example of a zone that knows where their ass is) I always had this stance, and I agreed with most people on every topic, especially for example that staff should stop making recruiting threads, because they know full well who wants to help and who has the time to help. Which is Something that Vanish posted and backed up recently.

 

I took a firm stance that Dakrns map should not be tested when I (being one of the major developers on it) still had ideas to improve the map, you only test a map when you run out of ideas. This is actually a good thing, because the map was already uploaded in pub. So the community had plenty of time to comment and give opinion and view the map. If you wanted more in detail opinion, then you invite players one at a time into your Dev arena and ask them. Testing was not required until the full dev team was ready. But of course Dakrn, Hoch, and Beer never wanted to involve me in any meetings or consider me as part of the Dev team, even though Greenish recruited me and I was good at making maps, and even helped with their map.

 

It was my stance that the map should never have been up for one month - killing pub. Theme weeks should only last 3 days. And it was my stance that Hoch shouldn't have lied to everyone claiming this map wasn't being considered for league. It is also my stance that they they should be uploading theme weekends like Turret theme while developing league. You have to learn to keep a zone alive while you Develop it. Instead staff completely, utterly and totally neglected the zone, while Developing for league. (A turret theme weekend takes 10 minutes to put up - and yes many people love this theme, it would have kept things lively.) As well it was my stance that Fly and Moris Theme should finally be tested in Pub. Yet nobody was doing that either. Once again this is everything the community not only wanted, BUT DESPERATELY NEEDS.

 

It was also my stance the tile-set chosen when they uploaded this new map was a poor choice, and a downgrade.

 

So yes these where my positions

They were always for the benefit of DSB

They were in support of what the community wanted.

And really to word it different, they were the communities wishes.

If hoch didn't "Listen" to me, then he opened his eyes after banning me, out of fear of what SSforum community would think of his failure to run his zone. And he finally made one change the community wanted. And if you do what the community wants, you are in the end "Listening" to me.

 

And that change was - Running 7vs7 league <- ONLY one change in the last minute aside from Hoch logging on more often.

(however we still have no clue if he scrapped Dakrns map, and if he did that was a wrong decision once again, and I feel sorry for all of Dakrns hard work for nothing)

Edited February 11, 2011 by Avast

[Tembest]

First post indeed, account no.

 

Anyway,

You've have many good points and ideas over the years but also many people disagree with.

Basically you post your opinion on everything, even if you had no idea or experience on

the subject. That's why people disagree with you so much.

 

A load of DSB'ers still consider you more harmful than beneficial. Whatever you may think.

No, I'm not talking about myself here. Just the general picture I've heard people have

on you.

 

I'm sorry to disappoint you but your ban had nothing to do with the changes.