Unauthorized Degranting

[PlayWolf]

FLAMEBAAAAAAAIT

[omni]

So if I robbed a real bank because they had a hole in their system, it's legal?

 

Imo mods shouldn't even do pointless arena messages like that.

[-sri-]

Yes, omni, it's perfectly legal...

What do you think? Lol

[Unix]

So if I robbed a real bank because they had a hole in their system, it's legal?

 

Imo mods shouldn't even do pointless arena messages like that.

There are a few issues with your analogy.

 

It'd be more along the lines of taking money from a non-government bank that isnt FDIC insured because of a hole in their accounting system. Which is 100% legal.

 

I didnt do anything illegal to receive the money from the bank bot, and it was a bot to player transaction, which staff has no authority to step in and moderate.

 

Whether staff should or shouldnt do ?aa messages like those is a different topic though.

[op2rules]

Jeez guys this is just a game with mostly irresponsible staff you should all know that by now. This entire discussion is pointless, if you don't like a fail staff then go find a new zone or play a different game. It's a fucking game not a religious journey of course people will abuse their stuff and you will get screwed, if that's what matters most to you then this will be a pretty downhill road for you being part of a community like SSCE Hyperspace's.

 

All I'm trying to say is, unless you are banned for >10 days w/o reason or got your password stolen, stfu.

 

Sorry didn't read the entire thread but if the whole money thing is part of the discussion, it's plain and obvious that ?give means you give the money with no expected return. Spidernl (or whoever the hell it is) who scammed (clearly unintentionally) everyone with the bot is just another small part of Hyperspace's failures. Get over with it you crybabies

 

Edit: BTW as a Hyperspace vet I am 100% in favor of spidernl being axed from staff for total abuse (in MANY scenarios, not going into details) and giving the zone a poor image.

Edited November 30, 2010 by op2rules

[Patman1]

Well quite honestly spiderln could do better as a mod, but I haven't been playing hyperspace long enough to know all of his screw ups.

[PlayWolf]

Spider best mod, playwolf fails

[Cheese]

YO SOME1 IS DELEETING MY POSTS UP IN HERE

 

 

 

as a Hyperspace vet

 

also lol @ this

 

 

.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Cheese

[Sketter]

Good read.

 

If what was said true about staff do not interfere or intervene in any type of money transfers,(including being scammed) and that bots are treated as players, then he does have an legitimate argument. (whether u like him or not)

 

The only counter argument is that staff is in fact involved due to a staff command. But even that's on a thin ice argument.

 

If this was anyone else nothing would have happened, but because he's staff, gives him the advantage and the argument to have staff/peers look away.

It's shady, but if there's anything that subspace has taught anyone over the years, this topic was dead before it even started.

 

 

Of course this is all being looked at logically... and nothing ever is right?

 

but hey...who am i?

[Jet Life]

Spidernl is the shit that unix bitch is a tranny ban her for ruining my life stupid cunt.

[Cheese]

ponzi schemes: great for taking idiots' money

[spidernl]

and the argument to have staff/peers look away.

I think some of the posters here still don't get that I discussed this with Masaru before I did anything.

Calling me abusive for discussing matters with my superiors before acting is a creative way of looking at things, of course.

 

Edit: BTW as a Hyperspace vet I am 100% in favor of spidernl being axed from staff for total abuse (in MANY scenarios, not going into details) and giving the zone a poor image.

Lol, I'd love to know some of those scenarios.

 

There are a few issues with your analogy.

 

It'd be more along the lines of taking money from a non-government bank that isnt FDIC insured because of a hole in their accounting system. Which is 100% legal.

There are a few issues with your analogy.

 

It'd be more along the lines of a government official walking into a bank and using his status to have the bank give the first person who asks for it $1,000,000 USD in cash.

 

Edit: Anyway, as I said, this is just a flame war. If any thread should be closed it should be this one.

Edited December 1, 2010 by spidernl

[morphineIV]

Unix, if you took money from a non-insured financial institution because they had a hole in accounting, you would still be arrested. Taking that which does not belong to you is illegal no matter which way you look at it. Instead of a felony charge of Crimes against a federally chartered or insured institution it would be Theft or Obtaining property by false pretense. Either way still a felony due to the amount involved.

 

You had the intent to take the money, you actually took the money, you laundered the money, and now you complain about being punished for it.

This is the reason why newspapers have Dumb Crook articles.

 

"I know my rights!" -Steve

[Cheese]

actually, far more accurate:

 

unix accepted a 1m donation from something that accepted donations from others

spidernl is now burning unix's money

 

 

.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Cheese

[omnomnom]

Unix, if you took money from a non-insured financial institution because they had a hole in accounting, you would still be arrested. Taking that which does not belong to you is illegal no matter which way you look at it. Instead of a felony charge of Crimes against a federally chartered or insured institution it would be Theft or Obtaining property by false pretense. Either way still a felony due to the amount involved.

 

You had the intent to take the money, you actually took the money, you laundered the money, and now you complain about being punished for it.

This is the reason why newspapers have Dumb Crook articles.

 

"I know my rights!" -Steve

 

Well, there's a difference between games and real life, I would presume. One may not consider a game the same as real life. If you know the difference and treat things differently if applicable, I do not see a reason for that itself to be a problem. I'm sure it is possible to treat real life and games differently.

 

As for this thread... arguing has its uses, however when one or both aren't willing to change their stance for any reason I would call it not really arguing, but more like a whinefest. Is Unix and Spidernl willing to change their belief for a good enough reason...? If not this thread will get nowhere.

[Dr Brain]

Well, there's a difference between games and real life, I would presume. One may not consider a game the same as real life. If you know the difference and treat things differently if applicable, I do not see a reason for that itself to be a problem. I'm sure it is possible to treat real life and games differently.

 

That's why Unix's game money was removed. Not to be confused with his real file money, I would presume.

 

 

Anyhoo...

 

If you want this thread to die, just stop posting. It's clear to anyone with a brain that Unix is at fault. I think he got off easy, as I would have banned him from the zone instead of trying to take the money back.

[Sketter]

and the argument to have staff/peers look away.

I think some of the posters here still don't get that I discussed this with Masaru before I did anything.

Calling me abusive for discussing matters with my superiors before acting is a creative way of looking at things, of course.

 

No no, you miss understood, or perhaps manipulating since I was very clear with what I said. (also picking "parts" of sentences and not quoting full sentences loosens anyone's credibility)

 

What is said was is because your staff, and not some joe blow, they will rather look away. It's fine, it happens all the time.

I have no "beef" or axe to grind. So I do take a neutral approach to all this. I even provided you with a possible defense in my previous post. ( which you can even use that to expand yours)

 

It's actually common for staff to be more proactive when stuff like this happens to one of their peers. It's like when some one on your squad has a problem with another rivals squad member, you end up picking a side so you don't end up being bipartisan.

 

Unix, if you took money from a non-insured financial institution because they had a hole in accounting, you would still be arrested. Taking that which does not belong to you is illegal no matter which way you look at it. Instead of a felony charge of Crimes against a federally chartered or insured institution it would be Theft or Obtaining property by false pretense. Either way still a felony due to the amount involved.

 

That makes sense... BUT staff take the position that they do not get involved, even adding the fact that they treat bots as players, which is key.

So that means (using an analogy) the government and policing force will not make any type of arrest or penalization if this was a real life bank, cause it does not apply under their roll of governing.

So ultimately Morphine, your argument (and similar ones) is dismissed, unless staff position has changed. Which their entitled to do so.

 

 

Again, this is all really just simple logic.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Sketter

[morphineIV]

I understand the difference between real life and games, you missed the point of my reply. Unix used the analogy of taking money from a non-FDIC backed institution and said it is legal to do if you do it in a round-about way, which clearly it is not. But no matter what it was wrong.

 

In regards to a donation, how is it a donation made to Unix when someone had to do it for him/her in order for the donation to be given by the bot? Unix knew or had a hunch that the bot could be tricked and needed help to do it. So Unix's intent was to take something that clearly did not belong to Unix, and then got rid of the money because Unix knew it was wrong. If it was just a way to have fun then the money should have been given back, no questions asked.

 

As far as spidernl wanting the money back, I agree. It should not have been taken in the first place and the person who took it should be punished, game or not.

[PlayWolf]

I agree, but still if goes like this, if you are playing a game lets say a MMO of some kind and you have a bank, somehow a guy finds out how to exploit your bank and steals your money, or just flats out does a game command and thefts your money, would you be mad at this? whether or not the answer is yes, you will because someone out moded your bank and took your money.

 

This is probably an invalid argument, but due to life issues, game or life, you losing progress on a game or money off the game, you are going to be pretty ticked, plus everyone that stored money on that bot basically just lost 1m technically because unix used a mod to exploit, who would dare to use the owner of a bank to exploit? The mod didn't know what unix was doing, unix knew how and had the plan to pull this off. Either way drama and all, he knows what he did was wrong whether or not it was a UB or not, it's a bot, not a player (player based/owned bot) you messed with something you known not to mess with.

 

Arguments think about little to big things. Of course it's just virtual money, but everyone that put money in that bot just lost 1m because of that. and having 2 people to help because they decided to do so. Who cares if they did or not, they wanted to help, but back to the point EVERYONE LOST 1m BECAUSE OF UNIX'S THEFT.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Wolfie

[Cheese]

actually, far more accurate:

 

unix accepted a 1m donation from something that accepted donations from others

spidernl is now burning unix's money

 

 

here it is again since noone was paying attention

[PlayWolf]

So.... Unix using a mod to get money from a player bank? OMG WHAT A GREAT DONATION! A DONATION IN WHICH WAS STOLEN Edited December 1, 2010 by Wolfie

[Unix]

and the argument to have staff/peers look away.

I think some of the posters here still don't get that I discussed this with Masaru before I did anything.

Calling me abusive for discussing matters with my superiors before acting is a creative way of looking at things, of course.

I am not calling what you did to allow your actions abusive, I am calling the act of taking money by force abusive.

 

There are a few issues with your analogy.

 

It'd be more along the lines of taking money from a non-government bank that isnt FDIC insured because of a hole in their accounting system. Which is 100% legal.

There are a few issues with your analogy.

 

It'd be more along the lines of a government official walking into a bank and using his status to have the bank give the first person who asks for it $1,000,000 USD in cash.

Even in your analogy, I did nothing wrong. If there is a hole in the accounting system and someone uses it, it's perfectly legal. Using tax deferred tax shelters in your retirement funds to attempt and save money and avoid paying taxes is probably the best example of this. If a person were to do this, it's perfectly legal.

 

It's clear to anyone with a brain that Unix is at fault. I think he got off easy, as I would have banned him from the zone instead of trying to take the money back.

Many players in my position to get 1m would had done the exact same thing. What I had done might be considered morally wrong, but I would like to add that I did not do anything illegal to procure the 1m, so what is there to ban for?

 

I agree, but still if goes like this, if you are playing a game lets say a MMO of some kind and you have a bank, somehow a guy finds out how to exploit your bank and steals your money, or just flats out does a game command and thefts your money, would you be mad at this? whether or not the answer is yes, you will because someone out moded your bank and took your money.

Isnt it your own fault that you put so much faith in something that you know has flaws and exploits? Whether or not you're mad doesnt mean you should abuse your powers and forcefully take what was taken from you when it occurred as a bot to player transaction.

 

This is probably an invalid argument, but due to life issues, game or life, you losing progress on a game or money off the game, you are going to be pretty ticked, plus everyone that stored money on that bot basically just lost 1m technically because unix used a mod to exploit, who would dare to use the owner of a bank to exploit? The mod didn't know what unix was doing, unix knew how and had the plan to pull this off. Either way drama and all, he knows what he did was wrong whether or not it was a UB or not, it's a bot, not a player (player based/owned bot) you messed with something you known not to mess with.

 

Arguments think about little to big things. Of course it's just virtual money, but everyone that put money in that bot just lost 1m because of that. and having 2 people to help because they decided to do so. Who cares if they did or not, they wanted to help, but back to the point EVERYONE LOST 1m BECAUSE OF UNIX'S THEFT.

Why shouldnt I try to scam a bot? Bots scam players all the time, and players scam players all the time. Time and time again though, staff does not get involved when one party is scammed of their money. A bot is at the owners risk, using a bot is at the users risk, giving money to another player is at the givers risk. We all know these principles. Many know about this exploit, even spidernl was fully aware.

 

Actually right now, the only person holding back the bank is spidernl. Spidernl has the 1m in capital from two other sources. He's trying to "now" make remedies for the exploit, when before he's said there was no fool proof way to solve so he ignored the issue and hoped for the best. So there's two ways to look at it, either he does know a way to solve it and he will fix it eventually, so he let a known exploit go or he just took everyone's money because he can just say it's not fixable.

[P Nut]

Why shouldnt I try to scam a bot? Bots scam players all the time, and players scam players all the time. Time and time again though, staff does not get involved when one party is scammed of their money.

This right here is enough to end the argument. The bias here is incredible.

 

Would staff intervention have happened if the owner of the bot wasn't also a staff member? Which staff are doing the actual degranting? Is it anyone other than the victim of a scam?

[morphineIV]

The other way is for you to give the money back. Plain and simple but you don't have the money anymore so why don't you get it back from ones who you gave it to? If you yourself thinks that what you did was morally wrong, why did you do it? There wasn't anything wrong until you decided to exploit the bot, so stop whining about getting your money removed, you brought it on yourself.

[PlayWolf]

Why shouldnt I try to scam a bot? Bots scam players all the time, and players scam players all the time. Time and time again though, staff does not get involved when one party is scammed of their money.

This right here is enough to end the argument. The bias here is incredible.

 

Would staff intervention have happened if the owner of the bot wasn't also a staff member? Which staff are doing the actual degranting? Is it anyone other than the victim of a scam?

 

BECAUSE, people choose to use the bots that scam them, that is a total different story then using a mod to exploit a bot for people to use. The thing is, player uses bot player is scammed, player does it again it's player's fault. Now the thing on to use a mod to exploit a bot is a different story because it took 2 forces to take from the bot. unix REGS to the bot making an account, unix plans :unix to mod: do arena "player unix gave bot xyz": :mod not knowing what unix is trying to pull, does the message and then withdraws the money. you basically scammed everyon and the bot itself with the use of a mod. Argument or not, you did.

 

yes of course the mod should have known to acknowledged this. But still you planned it, the blame is on you, you took the money, you argue that no mod can touch you, yet you gave it all away to avoid punishment, if dr brain agrees to this, then basically you are screwed and going to have to deal with punishment. Not saying he does.. or disagrees. but his quote on banning you says it all that he would too take it up in his hands for use of mod to exploit a bot.