How to fix flagging

[Aileron]

I posted this idea in the main forum, but I'm re-posting it so that it gets attention.

 

Just increase the kill rewards. (Including the reward for when a teammate gets a kill)

 

 

It doesn't matter what features you install to prevent hopping, ragequitting, etc. No matter what is in place, Cheese & friends will actively find ways to exploit the system for the flag reward, and will eventually succeed. Flag rewards consist of about 95% of your typical player's income, so what behavior are you rewarding? The behavior you encourage is anything that causes a player to be on the right freq upon the instant of victory.

 

With high kill rewards, the behavior that is encouraged is persistent conflict. If it were high enough, flag games would be an excuse to break into teams and shoot at each other. A small flag reward will keep teams honest in their attempts to win, so it should be like a 80-20 split in player income, in favor of the kill rewards.

 

Overall, stop running your zone in the same manner which President Obama is running the country. Massive, sweeping systems designed to prevent exploitation will inevitably fail and cause more harm than good. The best way to stop Cheese & friends from exploiting the flag game is to *stop rewarding them* for doing so.

[Dr Brain]

No matter how poorly the system addresses the problem that caused it to be implemented, you have to remember that there was a cause. In this case, the cause of the low kill rewards and high flag rewards was to create a desire in the populace for fast flagging games. I think this was accomplished, but it introduced some other problems.

 

Lets address your solution: yes, it will stop hopping, but it will also put an end to flagging as we know it. The team will be made up of individuals trying to maximize their kills over time, rather than individuals trying to help the team win. Why enter the base at all, if you can kill faster in the center? Any desire to help the team will disappear. Lancaster as team anchors will probably vanish altogether. Summoner becomes a worthless item.

 

If there's anything I've learned over the years it's that players are selfish, evil little twerps.

 

The only similarity between Obama and I are that we both govern in a dream world. Unfortunately for all of us, the US government isn't a video game.

[Kilo]

One similarity between Brain and I is that neither of us ignore and in fact we both reiterate and reciprocate stupid ignorant politics. Unfortunately for all of us, those qualifiers were redundant.

 

If you think one player is the problem, then let's ban that one player. If almost every player is the problem, which is almost certainly the case, then we're talking about the status quo ever since the two freq system was put in place--only now it's not nearly as dreadful because of the reasons Doc pointed out.

[vetta64]

 

If there's anything I've learned over the years it's that players are selfish, evil little twerps.

 

 

My favorite quote ever.

[Aileron]

I agree with the basic premise that players are vicious evil twerps. Also, I agree with your assessment, and tried to go into it with my original post. If the only real way to make money is to get kills, flagging will have similar problems.

 

First off, I would propose that you also increase rewards for teammates getting kills, and the attach toll. This would reward lancs and other role-players.

 

Also, I'm saying that it is a balancing act. Too much flag reward and people stack teams, too much kill reward and everyone is fighting for themselves.

 

Right now we have too much flag reward and not enough kill reward.

[Cheese]

Overall, stop running your zone in the same manner which President Obama is running the country.

 

this means you are completely retarded irl, and that everything you say can be ignored, because you are a dumbass

 

Cheese & friends from exploiting the flag game

 

this means you dont play hyperspace, and are a dumbass, and that everything you say about hs can be ignored because you have no idea what youre talking about

[Corey]

i think flagging is fine the way it is now. I WAS better back in 07 but it wont be the same, not because of the changes, but the players. Those who just quit to go be irl had a real impact on the zone. D_Claw, Brickwarp and Ignescent players especially. I agree with what cheese says, although i wouldn't have gone about it that way

[Dr Brain]

I happen to agree with Aileron politically, so insulting him about that isn't going to get you any points in my book.

 

Yes, there may be some happy balance between flagging rewards and kill rewards, but it's not the only axis along which the game can be balanced. Really, balancing something as subtle as kill rewards vs. flag rewards would be quite an undertaking, and I'd rather find a simpler solution. One possibility that I've been toying with (suggested by someone on the forum, I think) is to disable =90 and =91 entirely. This would obviously stop hopping, but may have unintended consequences.

[Aileron]

Hey, I knew comparing Brain to Obama was mean, but I knew he's tough enough to take it, and needed to get some attention. I knew accusing Cheese of leading the team-stackers was mean too, and that he is *not* tough enough to take it, but hey, his reactions are always funny. Like how he's 'ignoring' this topic while nevertheless posting in it.

 

The thing about balancing income is, I just typed ?stats. My total flag points are roughly ten times more than my total kill points. I would need more statistical data to confirm (like knowing the ratio of several players, or the stats of the whole zone), but if this 10:1 ratio is typical, that's one order of magnitude. You could quadruple or even quintuple the kill rewards and still the flag rewards would remain to be the dominant source of income. If kill rewards were merely within an order of magnitude of flag rewards, players would be much less discouraged to stack teams while still being primarily motivated to flag.

[Dr Brain]

I've just implemented a change in the zone disabling =90 and =91.

 

But back to the discussion. Here's stats from the 100 top exp players:

 

+-------+------------+------------+--------+
| exp   | money_flag | money_kill | ratio  |
+-------+------------+------------+--------+
| 13937 |    3847961 |    1087308 | 3.5390 |
| 13694 |    2295579 |    1260424 | 1.8213 |
| 13551 |    2295191 |    1104678 | 2.0777 |
| 12706 |    3911351 |    1091800 | 3.5825 |
| 12424 |    1667301 |     833249 | 2.0010 |
| 12329 |    1806241 |     895182 | 2.0177 |
| 12280 |    2093984 |     883316 | 2.3706 |
| 11620 |    1543430 |     667481 | 2.3123 |
| 11151 |     823623 |     636454 | 1.2941 |
| 11147 |    1848062 |     764614 | 2.4170 |
| 11031 |    1362810 |     783525 | 1.7393 |
| 11022 |    1050888 |     603330 | 1.7418 |
| 10946 |    1304905 |     599109 | 2.1781 |
| 10854 |    1009624 |     582381 | 1.7336 |
| 10769 |    2687909 |     640935 | 4.1937 |
| 10692 |    1619396 |     619033 | 2.6160 |
| 10527 |    1469527 |     704513 | 2.0859 |
| 10510 |    3160325 |     659844 | 4.7895 |
| 10507 |     694340 |     533703 | 1.3010 |
| 10435 |     740514 |     561709 | 1.3183 |
| 10409 |    1928244 |     618777 | 3.1162 |
| 10382 |     909643 |     506984 | 1.7942 |
| 10232 |     754408 |     490489 | 1.5381 |
| 10174 |    1404961 |     668758 | 2.1009 |
| 10174 |    1648389 |     702745 | 2.3456 |
| 10172 |    1270972 |     568926 | 2.2340 |
| 10105 |    1171753 |     645045 | 1.8165 |
| 10097 |     759646 |     549648 | 1.3821 |
| 10058 |    1200656 |     633359 | 1.8957 |
| 10011 |     684024 |     471307 | 1.4513 |
|  9974 |    1659526 |     676765 | 2.4521 |
|  9795 |     886833 |     475481 | 1.8651 |
|  9681 |     634959 |     465640 | 1.3636 |
|  9658 |     513661 |     418497 | 1.2274 |
|  9582 |     767421 |     437552 | 1.7539 |
|  9560 |    2296680 |     604139 | 3.8016 |
|  9517 |     764632 |     530558 | 1.4412 |
|  9466 |     640988 |     395925 | 1.6190 |
|  9410 |     970752 |     386429 | 2.5121 |
|  9237 |     720109 |     563460 | 1.2780 |
|  9111 |     991241 |     537231 | 1.8451 |
|  9072 |    1324106 |     490792 | 2.6979 |
|  8988 |    1479763 |     581584 | 2.5444 |
|  8944 |     556456 |     483473 | 1.1510 |
|  8853 |    1143164 |     460347 | 2.4833 |
|  8847 |     830003 |     486190 | 1.7072 |
|  8683 |     788897 |     478057 | 1.6502 |
|  8561 |     317502 |     274773 | 1.1555 |
|  8556 |    1114988 |     492363 | 2.2646 |
|  8483 |     745547 |     440146 | 1.6939 |
|  8418 |     431919 |     344345 | 1.2543 |
|  8347 |    1353677 |     465842 | 2.9059 |
|  8264 |    1046297 |     477578 | 2.1908 |
|  8204 |     784027 |     445596 | 1.7595 |
|  8111 |     404271 |     314094 | 1.2871 |
|  8105 |    1095318 |     530577 | 2.0644 |
|  8099 |    1491328 |     407989 | 3.6553 |
|  8064 |    1080410 |     431146 | 2.5059 |
|  8023 |     399787 |     302080 | 1.3234 |
|  7950 |     684855 |     450889 | 1.5189 |
|  7893 |     670975 |     377847 | 1.7758 |
|  7831 |     222973 |     276960 | 0.8051 |
|  7825 |     614854 |     329456 | 1.8663 |
|  7821 |     588722 |     376731 | 1.5627 |
|  7797 |    1522125 |     474287 | 3.2093 |
|  7785 |     514117 |     402740 | 1.2765 |
|  7772 |     694564 |     335532 | 2.0700 |
|  7615 |     862031 |     413267 | 2.0859 |
|  7524 |     465070 |     369581 | 1.2584 |
|  7499 |     621435 |     358576 | 1.7331 |
|  7402 |     423225 |     286606 | 1.4767 |
|  7341 |     468379 |     318458 | 1.4708 |
|  7266 |    1145709 |     476037 | 2.4068 |
|  7192 |     387168 |     302899 | 1.2782 |
|  7120 |     255417 |     261098 | 0.9782 |
|  7118 |     660900 |     368962 | 1.7912 |
|  6984 |    1230651 |     369702 | 3.3288 |
|  6846 |    1263598 |     511507 | 2.4703 |
|  6821 |     534426 |     320951 | 1.6651 |
|  6795 |     533828 |     366630 | 1.4560 |
|  6771 |     535420 |     323504 | 1.6551 |
|  6767 |     454402 |     264810 | 1.7160 |
|  6732 |     934849 |     411768 | 2.2703 |
|  6697 |     880236 |     306814 | 2.8690 |
|  6667 |     801294 |     296166 | 2.7056 |
|  6615 |     390608 |     292206 | 1.3368 |
|  6521 |     459511 |     272656 | 1.6853 |
|  6501 |     627168 |     281543 | 2.2276 |
|  6499 |     562366 |     254491 | 2.2098 |
|  6407 |     799036 |     347863 | 2.2970 |
|  6343 |     230760 |     273631 | 0.8433 |
|  6262 |     413437 |     299129 | 1.3821 |
|  6231 |    1094783 |     427482 | 2.5610 |
|  6223 |     283705 |     272277 | 1.0420 |
|  6209 |     318610 |     272670 | 1.1685 |
|  6187 |     138555 |     193181 | 0.7172 |
|  6030 |     743742 |     413632 | 1.7981 |
|  6014 |     743936 |     361302 | 2.0590 |
|  5990 |     163226 |     236244 | 0.6909 |
|  5913 |     362869 |     256282 | 1.4159 |
+-------+------------+------------+--------+

[Dr Brain]

Whole zone:

 

+-----------------+-----------------+
| SUM(money_kill) | SUM(money_flag) |
+-----------------+-----------------+
|        66485101 |       140216175 |
+-----------------+-----------------+

Ratio is 2.1090.

[Cheese]

this means you are completely retarded irl, and that everything you say can be ignored

Like how he's 'ignoring' this topic while nevertheless posting in it.

 

please show me where i said i was ignoring this topic.

idiot counter: 2

 

If kill rewards were merely within an order of magnitude of flag rewards, players would be much less discouraged to stack teams while still being primarily motivated to flag.

 

im suprised someone like you was able to notice this, kill rewards have been low ever since bountying was removed, and this is one of the primary arguments to put it back. however it looks like doc simply knocked down the flag rewards instead...

 

 

 

 

also 95% of politically minded people are complete retards, especially in an international online spaceship game. last political discussion i had irl was with a drunk racist. the last thing this zone needs is another spinsanity.

[Kilo]

Lots of whoooooosh ITT.

[toxic_intruder]

One possibility that I've been toying with (suggested by someone on the forum, I think) is to disable =90 and =91 entirely. This would obviously stop hopping, but may have unintended consequences.

 

...

 

I've just implemented a change in the zone disabling =90 and =91.

What kind of consequences?

Edited September 19, 2010 by toxic_intruder

[Aileron]

Well, those stats are unexpected. I figured that my stats would be somewhat typical, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'll concede your point.

 

I guess I forgot to take into account my time zone and the fact that by the time I log on, most of the zone has already gone to bed, and the dominant behavior is those 5 guys who win a flag game for an ez 5k when everyone else is centering.

 

(Ofcourse, the scores of the top 100 in xp is hardly an impartial metric, since that really amounts to the most effective killers in the zone rather than your typical player. )

 

 

That of course begs the question of why anyone would stack the teams.

 

Cheese, can that racist drunk you talk to offer any insights?

[Dr Brain]

There's probably a big difference between points and money, as the formulas are quite different.

[espo]

Well the team evener needs to be fix (for real this time) and that would help the game out a lot.