47% of US Households Don't Pay Income Tax

[Aileron]

In case you don't know, it has recently made headlines that 47% of US Households don't pay Income Tax. This is mostly due to the fact that politicians keep promising to make wealthier people take a larger share of the taxes, and each new guy one ups the last. Now, we've gone to an extreme.

 

This is fundamentally dangerous. Democracy has a fundamental flaw in that gains/losses for the individuals do not always match up with gains and losses for the whole. Suppose you had a three man country with Adam, Bob, and Charlie voting. Suppose you had a bill that would cause Adam and Bob to gain $100 but Charlie to lose $1,000. If approved, the country would lose $800, so the bill should lose. However, because the majority of people profit from it, it would get voted for.

 

Now, with about half the country not losing anything for every budget expenditure, we are in prime position for this to happen.

 

I'll take this opportunity to quote Alexander Fraser Tytler's "Life Cycle of A Democracy":

 

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years.

 

These nations have progressed through this sequence:

from bondage to spiritual faith

from spiritual faith to great courage

from courage to liberty

from liberty to abundance

from abundance to selfishness

from selfishness to complacency

from complacency to apathy

from apathy to dependency

from dependency back to bondage.

 

Ladies and gents, we are at the 'dependency' stage.

 

This is why I hate liberals. Liberals keep coming up with these 'new' ideas. Reality is those 'new' ideas have been tried over and over in history, always with the same results. By the way, the 'great courage to liberty' phase is . The liberal train of thought accelerates the cycle, causing a ton of friggin wars. The conservative train of thought can decelerate and fundamentalist thought can even reverse the process. The cycle doesn't even have to move at all! If liberals and fundamentalists would just stop doing what they do in the 'liberty to abundance' phase, it would just stay there.

 

But, the liberal, while well educated, does not learn from history. Since the immediate predecessor to the war phase is 'spiritual faith to great courage', when the liberal looks at history, they blame 'spiritual faith' as the cause of war. The real cause of war is, always has been, and always will be the accelerating forces which bring society from liberty and abundance to dependency and bondage. From there, the conditions are intolerable and the war becomes inevitable.

[whalz]

i wont agree or disagree with what you said cause people will think "oh he read this so its just ailerons bullshit again"

 

but yea this is.. true

 

i wonder if we will develop a new stage, or simply plumit back to one.. and i can only imagine , with what were capable of, to plumit back to square one.. scary

[AstroProdigy]

I hate liberals.

 

You know if you can no longer disagree over politics with a group of people without hating them then you really need to take some time to reflect on how unChrist-like you've become. I may think conservatives are utterly wrong, but they're still human beings. How can you hate millions of people you've never met? We're all human beings. If you spent more time trying to see issues from other people's perspectives rather than just trying to dehumanize them then maybe you wouldn't be filled with so much hate. What do you think that makes you as a Christian? You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Dr Brain]

Conservatives don't hate liberals. We like the fact that there are liberals in the world. We think every college campus should have 1-2 of them. We don't, however, think that there should be more than that. We don't like the fact that our school systems have been infiltrated and have become indoctrination centers rather than education centers. We don't like the fact that our republic has become filled with politicians that do not represent the people. We don't like the fact that the mainstream media has become a den of hypocrisy. We don't hate liberals. We hate the fact that they've started a program of systematic discrimination and that they're ruining this great country, ruining our economy, and ruining the lives of all those living here. We don't hate the people, only the situation.

[SeVeR]

Ann Coulter.

 

Anyway, sounds like the walls are really closing in on you Dr. Brain.

 

It's nice to blame one group of people for all the evil in the world. It's nice because polarising society always places you on the side of absolute righteousness.

 

It's a topic of psychological study for me: why do people need to obliviously generate or bolster their own pride? Is it the brain's defense mechanism against inadequacy?

 

I may think conservatives are utterly wrong, but they're still human beings. How can you hate millions of people you've never met?

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." -Nietzsche

[AstroProdigy]

Conservatives don't hate liberals. We like the fact that there are liberals in the world. We think every college campus should have 1-2 of them. We don't, however, think that there should be more than that. We don't like the fact that our school systems have been infiltrated and have become indoctrination centers rather than education centers. We don't like the fact that our republic has become filled with politicians that do not represent the people. We don't like the fact that the mainstream media has become a den of hypocrisy. We don't hate liberals. We hate the fact that they've started a program of systematic discrimination and that they're ruining this great country, ruining our economy, and ruining the lives of all those living here. We don't hate the people, only the situation.

I was referring to Aileron who made that statement. There's no point in responding to the rest of your comment because you can't speak for Aileron.

[BDwinsAlt]

Back to the real topic, people not paying taxes...

 

Everyone pays taxes when they buy food, clothes, and pay for utilities. You are taxed with the money you earn, but even earning it requires taxes. So not only do they take money out before you get your money, they also take it out when you buy things. I can kind of understand why people feel they shouldn't have to pay taxes on their income. I mean should you really have to pay to work? It wasn't always like that. Congress used to not be able to impose taxes on income. I agree it is necessary for our type of economy, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to do. If almost half the American people aren't paying taxes on income, why not just make some federal tax that goes on everything you buy. When you go to the mall and buy a shirt, tack on 2% tax or something. They tax oil, cell phone services, and misc random things... why not everything. Then even illegal immigrants would be forced into paying federal taxes because all the food, clothes, and baby products would be taxed, thus avoiding people not paying taxes because they are paid under the table or don't want to pay them.

 

Now this may not be the best solution, but something like this could help.

 

 

EDIT: English fail

Edited April 10, 2010 by BDwinsAlt

[AstroProdigy]

Back to the real topic, people not paying taxes...

 

Everyone pays taxes when they buy food, clothes, and pay for utilities. You are taxed with the money you earn, but even earning it requires taxes. So not only do they take money out before you get your money, they also take it out when you buy things. I can kind of understand why people feel they shouldn't have to pay taxes on their income. I mean should you really have to pay to work? It wasn't always like that. Congress used to not be able to impose taxes on income. I agree it is necessary for our type of economy, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to do. If almost half the American people aren't paying taxes on income, why not just make some federal tax that goes on everything you buy. When you go to the mall and buy a shirt, tack on 2% tax or something. They tax oil, cell phone services, and misc random things... why not everything. Then even illegal immigrants would be forced into paying federal taxes because all the food, clothes, and baby products would be taxed, thus avoiding people not paying taxes because they are paid under the table or don't want to pay them.

 

Now this may not be the best solution, but something like this could help.

 

 

EDIT: English fail

 

The problem is food, clothes, and utilities take up a much bigger percentage of a poor person's money than of a rich person. Therefore, taxes on those goods are actually regressive. The point is that the rich a-spend a much smaller percentage of their money on taxable goods since they can cover their needs and then some and still have most of their money afterward and b-have lots of ways to get around taxes that the poor don't have.

 

A proper balance would have a system where the rich overall pay a fair share of taxes when including all their accounting tricks, but of course anyone who tells you they know what that balance is going to be is either lying or delusional. The thing that bothers me is how many people throw the very notion of trying to get to that balance out the window and throw long lists of unsubstantiated claims and meaningless slogans at you.

Edited April 11, 2010 by AstroProdigy

[BDwinsAlt]

Not many rich people shop at Thrift Stores. Maybe have a lower tax rate for Thrift Stores. Aren't people on welfare that get food stamps tax exempt?

[Aileron]

A flat or progressive tax is appropriate. One problem you run in to is that taxes on anything other than income or property will *always* be recessive, because one rich person typically cannot consume as much as a large number of middle class income individuals. I agree with the idea of the progressive income tax if it is done for economic and budgetary reasons. I don't like when the cause for it is socioeconomic activism, because such a motive can (and has) take the issue entirely too far.

 

 

I don't know whether to respond to Brain or Astro. Both of you are pretty close to the mark. Brain is right in that there are many real-world issues which are quite disconcerting.

 

But, I'll give you the credit you deserve Astro. There is more to this than simple politics. I know I am being a poor Christian and that I am going against how I was raised. The thing is, I just stopped caring. Hating millions of people is easier and more satisfying in the short term. Call it short sighted, but the thing about short term solutions is that you get quick confirmation of the result, rather than working hard for something for years and then not getting it. I was too nice to too many people for too long, and now I have no dreams left intact to work for and no people to love, so hatred is the only human emotion I have to work with right now.

 

That being said, I am not a Episcopalian. A true Christian is supposed to hate wickedness and injustice. When it is kept firmly under the control of the higher consciousness, hatred can achieve great things. Without it there is no balance and no justice.

 

Am I motivated for a desire for justice right now? Heck no. Maybe some day I'll figure it out though.

[AstroProdigy]

A flat or progressive tax is appropriate. One problem you run in to is that taxes on anything other than income or property will *always* be recessive, because one rich person typically cannot consume as much as a large number of middle class income individuals. I agree with the idea of the progressive income tax if it is done for economic and budgetary reasons. I don't like when the cause for it is socioeconomic activism, because such a motive can (and has) take the issue entirely too far.

 

That's a fair philosophy to have.

 

I don't know whether to respond to Brain or Astro. Both of you are pretty close to the mark. Brain is right in that there are many real-world issues which are quite disconcerting.

 

But, I'll give you the credit you deserve Astro. There is more to this than simple politics. I know I am being a poor Christian and that I am going against how I was raised. The thing is, I just stopped caring. Hating millions of people is easier and more satisfying in the short term. Call it short sighted, but the thing about short term solutions is that you get quick confirmation of the result, rather than working hard for something for years and then not getting it. I was too nice to too many people for too long, and now I have no dreams left intact to work for and no people to love, so hatred is the only human emotion I have to work with right now.

 

That being said, I am not a Episcopalian. A true Christian is supposed to hate wickedness and injustice. When it is kept firmly under the control of the higher consciousness, hatred can achieve great things. Without it there is no balance and no justice.

 

Am I motivated for a desire for justice right now? Heck no. Maybe some day I'll figure it out though.

 

I can't understand how you can know your belief is wrong and not bother to change it. This doesn't even require you to do anything, just to have reality in your brain. Personal problems are no excuse to hate millions of people for their political beliefs.

[»Blocks]

Out of curiosity and to bring some more numbers to this talk, I looked at how much those 47% of US households that don't pay taxes make. Median household income in the United States is about $50,000, and none of those 47% make over $47,000. Below that, it's somewhat evenly distributed. Take a look: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032009/hhinc/new01_001.htm

 

It does seem a bit of an unfair distribution to only have the top half paying taxes. I can see it from both sides though. As a college student, I was making small bucks, and was grateful to have small tax burdens. Now that I have a real job, I can whine about how friggin' much comes out of my paycheck. Not sure what the solution is here. Just remember, if 47% of households don't pay taxes currently, that means about 1 in 2 complainers will pay more taxes if they have their way!

[Dr Brain]

I can see it from both sides though. As a college student, I was making small bucks, and was grateful to have small tax burdens.

 

Small tax burdens? You mean negative tax burdens, right?

[»Lynx]

Students get Taxed in America?

[BDwinsAlt]

Students get Taxed in America?

Pell grants are given out to students in America to help pay for college and sometimes bills. I agree, students don't have to worry as much about taxes. A lot of places around the university areas offer student discounts anyway, which is usually 10%, where 9% is sales tax in Alabama. So basically they don't pay the tax and save 1%. Although they do pay the tax in reality, but the item is cheaper.

[AstroProdigy]

I can see it from both sides though. As a college student, I was making small bucks, and was grateful to have small tax burdens.

 

Small tax burdens? You mean negative tax burdens, right?

 

Damn those students. They're such a drag on our economy right at this moment. Screw the future. By the way are you only referring to the income tax or all taxes and are you using statistics to back you up or just guesswork?

Edited April 16, 2010 by AstroProdigy

[»Blocks]

Small tax burdens? You mean negative tax burdens, right?

They've been positive income tax burdens each of the last three years. In 2007, 10.7% of my gross income (federal), 1.1% CA state. In 2008, 12.3% federal, 2.0% state. In 2009, about 7% federal and 1% state. Come to think of it, given how little I made, that really sucks.