If someone could change this game for the better...

[»Xog]

I say the SSCouncil discuss the matter with eachother and compile a list of parts of the client to be released to the public.

[Dr Brain]

The SSCouncil has no more access to the client internals than anyone else. So talking about what parts to release would be an exercise in futility.

[»Lynx]

1. If you remove the package encryption (which you've done) the client is useless, it won't connect to any zones (and stay connected) as all of the checksums will be off, and therefore will raise plenty of security warnings pretty much instantly.

 

2. In order to make any changes to the client (while it's no longer packaged) you'll need to know assembly, and know it well. It took Snrrrub a long time to make any changes to Continuum via the method you're suggesting, and even his efforts were too much of a security risk - and I can only think of perhaps one or two other people who are up to his back-end standard in the Subspace community. Oh, and then you'll need to package it up again, without of course screwing up any of the arbitrary server checks.

 

3. If you did find any useful code, it would all be in AT&T syntax. Seeing as you don't know C++ or C, I can bet you don't know assembly so I can bet you won't really be sure what you're looking for. Last time I tried to do what you're doing, it took me a *long* time just to find anything comprehendable, as I had to move through the stack and print everything out to be readable. If I've learned anything from attempting to reverse engineer pretty much anything, is that you're in the deep end immediately, unless of course you've got a very good understanding of c/stack/gcc/registers/twos complement etc.

 

Anyway, I don't see the benefits of releasing a load of gibberish code, considering how long it will take to do so. If you do want to (and know what you're doing), then make sure that you don't release anything that can damage the game, otherwise... leave things be. What we've got now is working. This method probably isn't the best for client upgrades. Just my two cents.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Lynx

[»Xog]

The SSCouncil has no more access to the client internals than anyone else. So talking about what parts to release would be an exercise in futility.

 

I meant have this solitron give the unencrypted client to a very trusted councilmember and have him get a very trustworthy person (aka you) to look through it and see what they can make of it.. then decide what to release

[»jabjabjab]

I think everyone is too cautious and that will be the end of everything. I understand that blah blah security blah blah sscouncil, but talking and not doing is worse than doing then failing. I want to see some action, not talk. We already know our limits, and our barriers. Stop talking about it and try to do something.

[BDwinsAlt]

Releasing the physics part of the code would help the community, but don't release the security parts.

BaK- already did a good job on the physics. But maybe we should have a look at the continuum code (or atleast a select few) in order to build a new client in the most effective and quickest way possible.

 

As far as the council is concerned, forget the council. It's pointless to ask them for anything. Things should be in the hands of the active development community. The council is just a bunch of useless power-hungry lazy (insert more negative words) afk (keep adding words here) people.

 

No offense, polix, mikethenose, but Testtube can take offense if he likes.

 

Anyway, just use your knowledge to better the game like the development community is going. It's a lot more rewarding to do something for the community for the better, than make hacks and stuff that ruin the game. Just work with us. We could use your extended knowledge. Don't let anyone influence you to stop bettering this game.

Edited January 19, 2010 by BDwinsAlt

[Gravitron]

Attention whore alert.

He thought that we're all held back by some shadowy curtain of encryption, should he come and relieve us of it he'll become the hero of SubSpace and development will actually flow...no.

If you want to be recognized as the savior of SubSpace, you'd need to learn VC++ and do all the dirty work yourself. There're heavy limitations for using assembly-level decompiled code editing versus editing the source and you can only go so far. At best, you can inject a loop that routines out to a file with your own arbitrary source that you'd like executed in order to append functionality - which still means you'd need to know how to code.

So, no, kid. You don't get no 15 minutes of fame.

The encryption never held anyone back. It's lack of commitment and knowledge.

 

Rampant cheating in SubSpace? Was never really that big of a problem as it was made out to be. Reality was much more less troublesome.

The SSCouncil, with its bubbleheads PR meisters MikeTheNose and BDVine, happily used Twister as a tool - not to cheat, rather to propagate the mass public hysteria that we're all doomed under the burden of supreme cheating that can only be made to go away if we yield under their sovereignty and accept them as the final law of SS.

Twister was easily stopped. Infact, Sage himself released patched versions (v1.35) of Subgame and SS Client to curtail its effects. The permission mechanics available at the original VIE were also sufficient. Zone66, Extreme Games and other major zones have easily combated the cheating and most cheaters were banned or otherwise locked out of the game begging for forgiveness and to get back in.

 

What really was lacking were more effective monitoring tools (such as *watchdmg, *watchgreen) to assist the staff in tracking/fishing out the cheaters. Were any new Client/Server made, more logging features and monitoring would be pivotal key, IMHO, for maintaining lawful gameplay. Again, part of what made the whole new Priit pack so effective was the new BanG system which cross-reference data to allow easy tracking of users and make sure that banned offenders have a hard(er) time to return and cheat and to know who they are when they do.

 

The encryption and all measures Priit put in place, those were not meant to deter dedicated crackers with malicious intent. Heck, Sage has rolled a new and improved Twister shortly after the first public release of the Continuum client was made (he just had the sense to not make it Public after the first fiasco). It was simply designed to prevent ordinary weak-minded players with memory editors and otherwise tools to give in to temptation and start a real cheating havoc (there's no use in banning 40% of the population). Stopping the 10% elite coders is never an ideal strategy to pursue - they can and they will break in - your best bet to cope with those is to detect them as they come through the door and boot them out. Stopping the 90% of regular users who, were you to leave the door open, will swarm the floodgates, however, is a sound strategy. Since whence you close the doors and lock them, 85% of them will have no idea how to get in (5% will try and research around informed professionals for a way in).

 

 

Bottom Line:

The only way to make any real change in SubSpace is to have a talented, dedicated, programmer who'll put in the hours-on-end and effort to create a new Client and Server software from scratch.

Those will be hailed as the true heroes of SubSpace.

Beyond that, there is no hope and any discussions about the issue are redundant.

 

Addendum:

Kudos to those who try to work within the given limited frame and excel through to succeed in improving their zones, innovating in manipulating and using the settings to produce something completely new, keep producing new content and in general continue catering to the entertainment of their player base despite the hindrances.

 

Post Scriptum:

Priit essentially "owns" SubSpace as he pays the bills for the servers which currently host the majority of all the main central SubSpace zones. SS players owe him an undying debt of gratitude for this benevolent patronage of his.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Ori Klein

[Bak]

If you're going to reverse engineer the binary to get the physics information, or really anything other than the security, or if you plan on having an alternate client in addition to the standard one, you should modify the original SubSpace binary. It will save you a lot of trouble as it has less obscurity, and has just about all the features of Continuum. The ones it doesn't have, such as LVZ, you could add in as a tutorial to show how your system works. No one will complain if you hack up the orignal SubSpace client, and there's no chance for security breaches.

[rootbear75]

At all of u hating on hin. stop.

 

He's not doing this for fame or anything.

In actuality, I told him to post on here when he came to me and talked about.

 

So if you are going to hate on anyone, hate on me because I told him to post here.

(THAT DOESN'T MEAN U CAN START FLAMING ME.... )

[Gravitron]

Gaze upon my avatar and writhe in the agony of that which is my hating stare.

[Samapico]

I say let him try. Chances are nothing new will come up anyway But yeah, cracking out subspace's physics code would be nice.

[Croww]

You sound like you know your stuff. I agree with a few points.

 

The thing that really rattles my cage is that the people who "took over" Subspace when it was abandoned by Jeff and Rod were ill-equipped to handle the game nor did they possess the god-like intelligence of Jeff and Rod. They didn't have the background necessary to manage a game/game community. And it was pure betrayal to so quickly alter the phyics of the Subspace universe and spawn all these ridiculous zones like "extreme" and trench. The people running these new zones are a bunch of yahoos who have no business doing so.

 

And I would disagree with those that would claim Subspace "needed" the new zones to keep it alive. Total bullcrap.

 

The game should have been left stock. Alpha, Chaos, Warzone, Running Zone, Turf Zone. Five zones to choose from. Five zones for the community to populate. If they wanted to experiment with new zones, it should have been done slowly and within reason. But no, the lesser minds who took over the game felt they were smarter than Jeff. Adding so many new zones that it fractured the player base. The team that "took over" Subspace should have focused on two things: cheat/exploit prevention and advertising. Subspace was a timeless game that doesn't really get "old".

 

I wouldn't be so quick to say the game should have been heavily altered or updated. Too much change and it might as well be a different game all together. Why not just build a new game? Take Starcraft. Getting old. Lacks some modern features. But it still plays well because it was designed well. No point in "updating it". Just build a new game.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Croww

[Dr Brain]

If those zones were as great as you seem to think, they never would have died.

[PoLiX]

Wow, for someone who tries to talk like a vet, you seem to lack knowledge of when those 2 zones you discussed popped up... Extreme Games, or Rompball as it was formally called, has been around since '97. And Trench Wars and Trench Wars Dark were having their big fight while VIE was still in charge. Quite a few other player made zones are still around from the days of Jeff and team also.

 

So go back to your SVS elitist group and try again, thanks.

 

On a side note: I love doing ?userinfo on some of these SVS "vets" who talk crap and find out that "I've used this alias since I started in 98" was really 2003-2005

[»Lynx]

Lul, owned.

[Gravitron]

I actually made Gravitron when I switched from Warzone to EG sometime around the VIE shutdown.

EG was lots of fun with lots of cool people, back then.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Ori Klein

[MikeTheNose]

And it seems that the SS Council does not even wish to repond to this. I guess thier take on this one is obvious. I will respect the wishes of the community here and drop the idea. I do not own continuum and have no right to take any matters into my own hands. Just a bummer that the sudden potential for new things will be lost.

 

 

Count of total council members posts in this thread: 4 members

 

Development on this game is currently being made possible by numerous individuals such as Doc Flabby, Dr Brain, Bak-, Samapico and many more.

[MikeTheNose]

Development for this game has given us a programmable server and a client. The server is usable by any person who wishes to use it. The client is currently in beta stage and is quite functional. The billing server remains in limbo but is an eventuality.

 

I don't understand why you don't see any development being done on this game. Try checking out:

http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showforum=4

http://wiki.minegoboom.com/index.php/Main_Page

[»Xog]

I see a lot of development in this game. In fact, I think this game has led to a lot of careers for its playerbase turning into developers/programmers. : ) Edited January 21, 2010 by Xog

[Solitron]

@Those wanting to know how to break encryption, wouldn't that conflict with everyone asking me to not add to security breaches? If I tell you what tools would be useful(these ones do all the work for you almost) then I may as well give download links and say do this to other games too. No, I wouldn't use notepad unless I had to, more work than it's worth if there's tools to do all the heavy lifting for me. Honestly I didn't come here to argue with a bunch of people so im ending this part of my reply now. You can believe me or not, doesn't affect me in any way.

 

@Those who are calling me an attention whore -- Rootbear is correct, he told me to post here to begin with. I didn't even want to initially. Im not here for any fame or glory, and could care less about your little "server politics". So you can keep your future title of the infamous Hero of SubSpace, i'm no out to stand in you way lmao. And i'll stick with whatever programming langauge I like, thank you.

 

@Mike: You are correct, I didn't bother to check into new clients made until you brought that up. I haven't browsed the MGB forums, nor these ones in quite some time. I just went by what I saw from the official client. I guess I do stand corrected. Oh well, I simply offered to help in what way I could. I stated my case, made my points. I do recognize now that there are still a few people deving here working thier ass off for new things. Im not griping about them. My rant was mainly towards the official client and Priit's lazyness with Continuum. I did not think however, that the council supported or endorsed non-official clients.

 

And for everyone else wanting to know why even bring up this topic, I think the Continuum/Subgame combo is the easiest and most user-friendly sandbox game development setup out there. With very little knowledge of anything, people can set up and start making thier very own game server. That's the appeal of this game in my eyes now. It may be just a small little zone to most, but I think it's nice to create something from basically the ground up depending on how many things you mod, and look back and say wow, I did that. I simply wanted to lift some limits on that and make it more fun all around. I can see now that the bar will be set higher eventually with new projects going on now. Hopefully Subspace2 will be done in year or less. Thanks flabby.

 

And now im done with this thread, from what I gather, anything I can offer will be obsolete in a month or two anyway. Oops on my end. :S

[»Ceiu]

@Those wanting to know how to break encryption, wouldn't that conflict with everyone asking me to not add to security breaches? If I tell you what tools would be useful(these ones do all the work for you almost) then I may as well give download links and say do this to other games too. No, I wouldn't use notepad unless I had to, more work than it's worth if there's tools to do all the heavy lifting for me. Honestly I didn't come here to argue with a bunch of people so im ending this part of my reply now. You can believe me or not, doesn't affect me in any way.

 

Sigh... It annoys me that I was able to predict your response as well as I did. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm related to Miss Cleo.

Basically, what you're saying is you have no clue what you're talking about and if you gave out any information it would make it abundantly clear that you've been BSing your way through this entire thread. Kudos, sir.

 

Oh, and if you think this doesn't effect you... I suppose your reputation isn't very important to you.

 

 

I suppose Brain was right when he told me not to care, but goddammit this shit annoys me. After years upon years of witnessing it, I just can't understand the reasoning behind this behavior. I mean... what's the point? In this particular case, all he did was offer a service that he was in no way able to provide. Even if you ignore the fact that every developer who read this thought it was utter horseshit (for good reason), where could he have gone with it? Was he expecting someone representing the SSC (AceFlyer, lulz!) to tell him to fuck off immediately so he could play the martyr card? Was he hoping for the entire community to suck his dick while he delayed the "release" of the code as long as possible? I just don't get it. Are there any psychologists lurking the forums that can dumb it down for me?

[Solitron]

Sigh... It annoys me that I was able to predict your response as well as I did. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm related to Miss Cleo.

Basically, what you're saying is you have no clue what you're talking about and if you gave out any information it would make it abundantly clear that you've been BSing your way through this entire thread. Kudos, sir.

 

Oh, and if you think this doesn't effect you... I suppose your reputation isn't very important to you.

 

 

I suppose Brain was right when he told me not to care, but goddammit this shit annoys me. After years upon years of witnessing it, I just can't understand the reasoning behind this behavior. I mean... what's the point? In this particular case, all he did was offer a service that he was in no way able to provide. Even if you ignore the fact that every developer who read this thought it was utter horseshit (for good reason), where could he have gone with it? Was he expecting someone representing the SSC (AceFlyer, lulz!) to tell him to fuck off immediately so he could play the martyr card? Was he hoping for the entire community to suck his dick while he delayed the "release" of the code as long as possible? I just don't get it. Are there any psychologists lurking the forums that can dumb it down for me?

 

Okay, i've had enough of your crap now. Listen to me, you DUMB fuck. I didn't even want to post this here originally, the ONLY reason I did is because Rootbear bugged me into doing it. You keep blabbing like a 5 year old school girl, ranting and raving how im out to be a hero and martyr, ect ect. You just look like a vulture who has nothing to do than pick and pry and twist words and the meaning of my thread. This is now the third or 4th time you've come here and trolled me for no apparent reason whatsoever. Your replies aren't even that relevent to the topic at hand and all they are there to do is try to provoke me. I offered to help the community in what way I could, and people like you spit in my face. And fuck my reputation here, I could care less. If you don't want my help thats fine, but dont expect me to write a 5 page tutorial just for your stupid ass, your royal highness.

 

Ever since I posted this 30-40% of the replies here badger and criticize me, and even though several people tell me NOT to decrypt the client, or only a specific part, your ignorant ass wants a tutorial on how to do it anyway. Your logic is warped, you're too blinded by your own arrogance to see it for yourself. You remind me of one of those the National Enquirer journalists, always so desperate to make your big story you'll twist the facts around and then add on some extra bullshit to make yourself seem more credible. You want a tutorial? Okay i'll give you one. On seperating FACT from personal opinions you fucking troll. Lets talk facts. Watch and LEARN something.

 

FACT 1: I never posted this for any fame, or glory, or "hero" status. This all originates from you and some other guy I dont bother to remember making fairy tales about me. I was telling root about a project I was working on, and he wanted to know if I could break Continuum's encryption, I did. He then got over-excited about it and told me that I should post about it here, ect ect. Which I never really wanted to do and was reluctant in the first place, but he pushed me so I said whatever and did.

PERSONAL OPINION 1: You are obviously out to get me for this because any attention this thread got probably took all those "cock sucking" people you know away from your 1 inch wonder for a brief moment and it obviously sparked your jealousy judging by the way you're trolling me in such bitterness. Suck on them sour grapes, you prick.

 

FACT 2: I can break the encryption. You don't think the tools exist? A MODERATOR MIGHT WANT TO REMOVE LINK TO THIS RESOURCE SITE, BLAME THE INGORANT ONE FOR THIS PART: http://exetools.com

PERSONAL OPINION 2: Anyone who's anyone knows the site. Go learn how to use those programs yourself. I'd never help pricks like you learn anything.

 

FACT 3: Moderators can feel free to delete this whole topic, or at least delete all of my posts here. If I were out for any kind of fame that just blew your theory right out of the water. Please do delete this. Tired of seeing this guy bitch and moan literally every day.

 

FACT 4: In all likelyhood being the whining troll that you are, and yes, you are a troll, fact. Everyone feel free to read the whole thread and compare his posts. Please note that im done giving you that negative energy you thrive on so badly. You will not succeed further in trying to shit on my day to attempt to make yours better.

 

But before I stop there, i'll be finishing what I started in this post. Which leads me to my next fact.

 

FACT 5: I made this thread to get permission to modify and RE the continuum client to add/change things for the better. I got a lot of comments "it's not a good idea." Or "not nessesary, people are already coding another one." or "WHAT ABOUT SECURITY" and "attention whore". Now, even if people changed thier minds, you can look elsewhere. My offer was genuine, I don't offer a second time.

 

And since we're playing fairy tales and gypsy fortune teller... you're likely going to come back to troll and piss and moan some more. Sorry if I stole your precious attention, even though I was never out to get any. And keep your false kindergarten psychological profiling bullshit to yourself. You don't know me, nor what I think or do. Last time I checked I didn't sign your paycheck for a therapy session. Go to college, get a degree, then analyze someone.

 

And just to pour some water on the BS flames, i'll REMOVE my post that started this big waste of time to reduce all the whining going on, sounds like a damn nursery in this thread.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Solitron

[»Xog]

Are there any psychologists lurking the forums that can dumb it down for me?

Actually yes there are. I'll dumb this down for you.

 

Your own insecurities are encouraging you to bully this person. Your self doubts are gnawing on your concience thus provoking offensive posts. Putting someone down will make you think that, in your mind, whether you realize it or not, you're 'better' than that person. That's simply delusional.

Here, learn about your brain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

[»Ceiu]

What's sad is that I was even willing to give you the benefit of the doubt at first.

 

I could go through that wall of eRage and address each pseudo-point as you attempted to make them, but I'd rather make this short and sweet:

 

Unpacking an exe != decompiling/modifying it.

When I asked you for a "tutorial" (as you so put it), I was asking you for details so I could see if your claim had any validity. Lynx already addressed pretty well (surprisingly well, actually) the issue with what you're intending on doing and even correctly assumed what you had done. To recap: After you unpack it you need to actually do something to make it readable if you only know a bit of Cpp. After you decompile it, you'll have spaghetti code which lacks most useful variable naming and is littered with gotos. Hell, even Java looks godawful once decompiled -- I can't imagine what Priitk's horrible client looks like after being run though a meat grinder like that. If you're not fluent with x86 assembly, there's a good chance you won't have any idea what is going on in the mess of C code you'll get out of any decompiling tool. If you want to take that as an attack, have at it, but understand that it's simply a fact of the matter. What you're suggesting is harder than you're wanting to think it is.

[Dr Brain]

Solitron, what Cerium understands--and you don't seem to understand--is that Continuum isn't your average exe. Continuum has been specially developed to thwart the average decompiling tool. Also, having the tools isn't enough. You need to know how to use them, and you need to be an expert in a half dozen things. You'll need to know assembly language, you'll need to know C/C++, you'll need to know UDP, you'll need to know encryption, you'll need to know Windows API, and you'll need to know linkers and loaders. There are many more things that you'll need to have a passing knowledge of, but not necessarily be an expert in.

 

From your few posts, you've come across as someone who doesn't even know enough to build a program like Continuum (much less reverse engineer it). You said you know C++, which is the classic mark of a programming newbie. Oldbies usually know enough to say C/C++, or not bring it up at all (especially since it's not very relevant in this context). Reverse engineering is *never* easier. It's only quicker.

 

I've been fairly civil to you in this thread, because I hoped that you'd start working on Continuum, and realize that you'd gotten in over your head. I figured it would be a valuable lesson for you about your own limitations. I hope you'll take this post to heart, and start the decades long process of learning the things you need to know. It will be a slow but rewarding journey. I'd recommend starting with compiler theory, and writing your own C compiler (even a C to asm compiler; there's no need to go straight to the opcodes). That will give you knowledge enough to understand the crux of the problem you're dealing with now.