If someone could change this game for the better...

[Solitron]

Removed due to whining and complaining about this thread getting to much attention. Forget it. Edited January 22, 2010 by Solitron

[»jabjabjab]

2 words: Nostalgic Bullshit. People here are too cautious to move forward, and it is sad. if changing the client does not please 300, please forget about the other 6.4 million people (with internet and time) out of the equation. You cant please everybody, so please the most amount and move on.

[Hakaku]

Well, I think everyone would love to see this game get a major facelift and bring it up to par with the times that we live in. The fact that this game has basically had no update for something like six years now has deeply affected it in nearly all aspects.

 

The problem, however, isn't that we're unable to crack the Continuum encryption, it's more that both the Continuum client and Subgame servers are closed source and remain in the hands of one single developper who has greater priorities in life than helping the community out. The client alone basically controls every aspect of the game and sets the limits for how much we can innovate with the rest (e.g. servers). Bigger maps? More tiles? More features? All client limitations.

 

So why did Priit close source and encrypt everything? To stop hackers. The original SubSpace had been badly ruined by cheating applications like Twister. In order to counter such attempts, Priit basically blocked all access to anything that could hurt the game when in the wrong hands. Why he never passed on the source to someone else is mainly due to distrust and security reasons. And therefore open sourcing is way out of the question.

 

On the good side, MervBot and Subgame have been deprecated by the open source server ASSS, and billers, directory servers, and whatnots already have a number of great counterparts. All that's left in order to move away from our dependance on Priit Kasesalu is the client: basically the only way for this game to move forward is to repeat history and develop a client that will supercede the one that already exists. It's a lot easier said than done though, and the council is basically useless in terms of developping a new one. Bak has been working on Discretion for a few years now, it's the best we currently have. But the majority of people here aren't programmers at all, nor graphic designers, nor anything other than players. So really, the end tale of development usually rests on the shoulders of one person with the will and the know-how, not a group with pseudo powers, not even a community.

[Solitron]

Would a unencrypted client uploaded to these forums assist in starting a new client from scratch? It'd give people something to work from, afterall thats what RCE is meant for. XD

 

If you all think it'd be useful and the council gives me the OK, just ask. ^^

 

And Hakaku, I think that while Priits security measures may have been sufficient a few years ago, they are easily circumvented now thanks to so many new tools out there that can be abused by people who know what they're doing. Whats the point in sacrificing development for security if you don't even update your security features? I could go into TW right now if I wanted with WPE and a list of Proxy Servers and have some fun at any given time. Not that I would, thats a area of abuse I dare not cross. Hell, even MervBot can be abused easily. Considering most zone owners are in fact, not programmers, they leave thier servers wide open to unwanted bot guests. Zones like Mystic Kingdom had a bullseye on thier back. And if people can break the client encryption, who needs twister? You can just edit call functions for taking damage, ect(although fishing around for this specific area of code may take a bit to find lol). Encryption... guess Priit doesn't bother to update that either. :/

 

I guess my point is every new feature can be abused, might as well drop the closed source development because Priit will never take the time to update his security countermeasures enough with his busy schedule. At least hand the code out to a handful of coders and take a chance. :S

 

Again, just my 2 cents.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Solitron

[divine.216]

The SS dev community does not have anyone with the talent and time to write a suitable replacement. Unless and until this changes, revealing encryption details helps nothing.

 

SS politics are petty, silly, and inherent to social life -- it's the cost of companionship. Deal with it or play offline.

 

More technically, cheating concerns preclude an open client using SS protocol. (Feel free to write a new protocol and interoperate via ASSS.)

 

Whatever the strength (or weakness) of Cont's encryption, it does seem to be doing a workable job. While we might not trust it for much, and indeed some have unraveled it, still, we can enjoy playing the game. Our collective fingers remain crossed.

 

Exposing Cont's encryption details does nothing except roll the dice, once again, and hope that priitk will indulge us with a fix. Sure this situation is less than ideal, but it's better than the real alternative of cheaters overrunning the game, again. To whatever extent the game is thus crippled: please don't trip the cripple -- he won't learn to walk, eventually, he'll just stay down.

 

Instead of removing the fig leaf, why don't you do something constructive? You say the game has gone nowhere. While I disagree, it is in any case not priitk's fault. Existing tools permit a wide range of unexplored ideas. While some may critique priitk's leadership, his absence is most felt on the periphery. He can't be expected to do all the development. Design a map, craft some new game settings, or if you're inclined to code you can always write a bot or a server module.

 

I always enjoy a good shin-kicking, it can be refreshing; and new coders are always welcome here. But please don't pee in our pool.

[Solitron]

The SS dev community does not have anyone with the talent and time to write a suitable replacement. Unless and until this changes, revealing encryption details helps nothing.

 

SS politics are petty, silly, and inherent to social life -- it's the cost of companionship. Deal with it or play offline.

 

More technically, cheating concerns preclude an open client using SS protocol. (Feel free to write a new protocol and interoperate via ASSS.)

 

Whatever the strength (or weakness) of Cont's encryption, it does seem to be doing a workable job. While we might not trust it for much, and indeed some have unraveled it, still, we can enjoy playing the game. Our collective fingers remain crossed.

 

Exposing Cont's encryption details does nothing except roll the dice, once again, and hope that priitk will indulge us with a fix. Sure this situation is less than ideal, but it's better than the real alternative of cheaters overrunning the game, again. To whatever extent the game is thus crippled: please don't trip the cripple -- he won't learn to walk, eventually, he'll just stay down.

 

Instead of removing the fig leaf, why don't you do something constructive? You say the game has gone nowhere. While I disagree, it is in any case not priitk's fault. Existing tools permit a wide range of unexplored ideas. While some may critique priitk's leadership, his absence is most felt on the periphery. He can't be expected to do all the development. Design a map, craft some new game settings, or if you're inclined to code you can always write a bot or a server module.

 

I always enjoy a good shin-kicking, it can be refreshing; and new coders are always welcome here. But please don't pee in our pool.

 

I must say it's interesting to get a view on the other side of the coin. Perhaps you might be right. Leaving things be is certainly an option as well. I offer only to help those who want it. I won't do anything without the Council's permission of course. As of now I have 0% of that permission. I might just drop this whole thing if enough think it's a bad idea. If you really think releasing a decrypted client would be that harmful than helpful to the dev community then I guess I will have to take it seriously and think twice. I'd like more feedback on this matter though.

 

I have to say this though, a few years back I was under the impression that the dev community had much more programming resources at it's disposal to make use of this. And now it would seem people are telling me theres a handful or less now to even do anything with fragments of the client code. Well, if this is the case it looks like I overrated the abilities here. For that, I am sorry. Anyways, that's not to say I don't think theres potential here either.

 

As for peeing in the pool, you disrespect me like that again and i'll be ploping a fat Baby Ruth in your pool and clog your drain.

Just kidding, lmao!

Edited January 18, 2010 by Solitron

[»jabjabjab]

Even though im not the opinion you are looking for, i say go ahead. I am asking for it. It is way past over due.

[Solitron]

Even though im not the opinion you are looking for, i say go ahead. I am asking for it. It is way past over due.

 

And as always, I appreicate all views and feedback and value them equally, although I hope this thread generates more intrest than it has. And a response from a council member regarding this would be nice as my hands on the matter are literally tied until that happens.

 

To take a fun quote from a movie: I don't like reaching into another man's refrigerator, without asking permission first.

 

That code, legally copyrighted or not was painstakingly slaved over by Priit, and while I disagree with the way he's doing things, I have to respect the only official authority as to weither or not revealing part of it to the masses is okay, would be the Council itself. And I say Council because the odds of getting Priit to respond to this personally seems like winning the damn lottery. SS Council is probably the closest to an OK i'm gonna get.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Solitron

[»jabjabjab]

Take it this way:

 

PriitK does not run the community. In other words, people look at priitk as the decision maker of where this community should go. 12 years ago, it was Jeff Petersen, and when a client is made this next decade, he will be looked upon as well. he is just a (was a) decision maker. We are currently in the gap between decision makers.

 

 

Edit: btw it's 4AM. Im supprised anyone would reply at this hour much less the sscouncil.

Edited January 18, 2010 by jabjabjab

[Solitron]

Haha, wasn't expecting one this late, hopefully within a day or two though.

[Testtube]

wow

[Solitron]

World of Warcraft?

[»doc flabby]

Theres only one person who i know for sure has broken the client encryption fully and thats snrrrub. Hes even released a service that allows anyone to use Continuum Encryption, its how his StarLight Chat Client works. But you can already get continuum to connect to zones without using encryption at all if you run ASSS.

 

I don't see any point in releasing an unencrypted continuum at this late stage. All it will do is damage the existing game.

 

The most useful thing I think from a developers point of view, would the original source code for subspace/continuum's physics engine, including the interpolation and extrapolation it does. It does some very cleaver things to make gameplay seem smooth, despite the data coming to the client, not being smooth at all. Things that were cutting edge at the time, and have only been replicated in modern games in the last 5 years.

 

The encryption isn't the thing holding up development, its the lack of knowledge of how parts of the game actually work.

Edited January 18, 2010 by doc flabby

[»Lynx]

Uh what? You broke Cont's encryption in two minutes? Do you work for NSA by any chance? Rain Man??

 

Anyway, Continuum works by security through obscurity, and so far it's been working well. Thankfully, we only need to ban a very small minority, as cheating isn't too easy. Of course, I'd like to see other measures be put in place (and I believe that BaK has some very good ideas on security with Discretion). Releasing an unencrypted client would only remove the obscurity we have, and I believe would be a bad idea. However if you have the skills that you say you have - perhaps you could help secure the future of the game by contributing to either Discretion or ASSS?

 

Edit: Also, editing the client by assembly hacks is not easy; it's a pain in the ass. Plus, I don't think many of our very few developers actually know assembly well enough to edit the client fully.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Lynx

[Dr Brain]

One has to think long and hard about security before releasing an open source client.

 

Either you do server side checks (or peer to peer) or you completely lock down the client.

 

Server side checks limits the number of players that can connect, since the server has to do physics processing for every client. This is why traditional games are limited to 16-64 players, and SubSpace can handle 500+. Open clients also make knowledge hacking inevitable, which is why I don't believe a pure open source client will succeed.

 

I think the best compromise is to open up the physics engine and high level handling code, but keep the security code secret. This way features can be added, but only authorized configurations can be utilized.

 

Also, there is enough information out there for anyone with some basic encryption theory and a bit of assembly knowledge to crack continuum's protocol.

[»doc flabby]

 

Server side checks limits the number of players that can connect, since the server has to do physics processing for every client. This is why traditional games are limited to 16-64 players, and SubSpace can handle 500+. Open clients also make knowledge hacking inevitable, which is why I don't believe a pure open source client will succeed.

 

I think the best compromise is to open up the physics engine and high level handling code, but keep the security code secret. This way features can be added, but only authorized configurations can be utilized.

Interestingly this mirrors my idea for subspace 2, to duel-licence it (and this continues to be my plan).

 

Have an open source version that can be used for development, and is full playable, except it has no security.

 

Then to have a completely closed source version for production servers, which contains the security code.

Zone owners could then choose which clients they allow (to allow for development zones, and prevent lock-in)

 

Server side checks limits the number of players that can connect, since the server has to do physics processing for every client. This is why traditional games are limited to 16-64 players,

Whilst this may be true for 3D FPS, with modern CPUs I think there would be no problem doing 2d physics for large numbers of players, they can easily handle many 1000s of 2d objects interactive in 2d space. Something like http://code.google.com/p/chipmunk-physics/ which has full Newtonian physics (rather than the much simpler subspace physics) can easily handle large numbers of interactions. I think the limits often exist due to inefficient bandwidth usage, and sending alot more data than is necessary. Alot of games take every single key press you make and send it to the server, and receive the entire server state (and then receive deltas of this state each tick).

[PoLiX]

It's funny after how many times I've mentioned it people still think we're not working on anything. Figured it'd be pretty public by how many are involved/been asked.

 

And noone looks to Priit as a leader of this game. Ghost Ship is who I always goto and who is allowing us to run this project.

 

Priit is semi-awake right now, and if word got out encryption was broke, he would fix it. He's changed the cont encryption slightly with almost every version from what I remember Snrrrub saying.

 

And since the reason we're currently after him is for a subgame fix, it wouldn't be out of question for him to release a server fix at the same time if he found a client fix needed.

 

There is a lot of support behind Dr Brain and his continuing dev with ASSS, and a lot of interest and support behind Bak- with Discretion. The billing server is still up in the air as a few different people are willing to code it, and 1 person who knows the commands inside and out says he is coding one. But where this all goes, we just wait and see. This project is only in its infancy. Continuum's basework started in 99, and was put into plan the same year by the council. And seeing as it wasn't released until 2001, I would say we have a lot of time to go, with a lot less information to work with.

 

But this is all just an idea/plan. With Priit, you never know when he'll pop up with something or be willing to do something. All we can do is try.

[Dr Brain]

Polix, maybe no one knows what you're doing because you don't actually say. You wrote a 6 paragraph post with only vague allusions to "we", "this project" "idea/plan". What project? Who is we? If you can't say, then don't write confusing posts. If you can say, then say. Most of your other recent posts have been the same way.

 

Personally, I don't care, but you can't be surprised when people "think you're not working on anything".

[Solitron]

Well, after reading everyones replies, it would seem that a lot do not wish for a unencrypted client. I only offered this because I thought it would help those trying to make a new client themselves. Thats how a lot of games in the industry today were made, through reverse code engineering. People think to code a game from something else you need the source, they're misnformed. You can still get a basic idea of how it works with RCE, and you can even make small changes without even changing the filesize becauses it's at the byte level.

 

So far I have one supporter, and about 2 others who think that 2 different client versions could be acceptable. I think it's a good idea and I say this about it... Why not have Priit's official version, and a community version? Why NOT let people decide which client they want players to use to connect to thier servers? Wouldn't it be a nice feature for ALL zone owners who could take they community version of the client and mod things in it like sounds, and graphics manually, so there's no need for players to download anything in game? Technically it's win/win for the zone owner and players. All they would have to do is upload said client to thier site for people to download.

 

Anyways it's just a thought. I wont dare do it without the OK from council members though. Afterall, my intentions are only helpful and not malicious.

 

As for ASSS and Discretion, I think they have a LOT of potential and are definately half way there in thier own rights on replacing Subgame and the Continuum client. But as far as me contributing to that code, that's going out of my field of expertise. I know only one programming laungaue, and that's very little C++. I screw around with it as a side hobby. My specialty is RCE and would be making direct modifications to the client itself without the source. I doubt that would help either projects much. I could obviously get better at C++ if that's what they are programming with.

 

As for Priit re-encrypting the client, good. He really should. That encryption can be broken with simple tools now. It's rather old. What did he do, use executable encryption?

 

Anyways even if he DID, and I couldn't break it down the road, we would still have the current client to work on from that point on if that's what the SS Council/Priit wanted. All in all it seems it's not going to happen from the general responses i've got thus far though.

[aquarius]

This is actually a meaningless public opinion Poll. The availability of the source code should be decided by those designing the security in tight cooperation with those designing the game, server, biller, ect.

 

@ Polix: maybe you can deliver a series of informing news posts

[Samapico]

Why not have Priit's official version, and a community version? Why NOT let people decide which client they want players to use to connect to thier servers? Wouldn't it be a nice feature for ALL zone owners who could take they community version of the client and mod things in it like sounds, and graphics manually, so there's no need for players to download anything in game? Technically it's win/win for the zone owner and players. All they would have to do is upload said client to thier site for people to download.

The problem with this is that anyone could make a cheating client and connect anywhere... if you want to prevent that, you still need a closed-sourced portion.

[»Ceiu]

As for ASSS and Discretion, I think they have a LOT of potential and are definately half way there in thier own rights on replacing Subgame and the Continuum client. But as far as me contributing to that code, that's going out of my field of expertise. I know only one programming laungaue, and that's very little C++. I screw around with it as a side hobby. My specialty is RCE and would be making direct modifications to the client itself without the source. I doubt that would help either projects much. I could obviously get better at C++ if that's what they are programming with.

 

Okay, this really screams bravo sierra to me.

 

If you only know "very little C++", how can your expertise be in reverse engineering compiled code? I'd appreciate it if you could provide as much detail as possible, as you appear to know something I don't.

[Solitron]

Okay, this really screams bravo sierra to me.

 

If you only know "very little C++", how can your expertise be in reverse engineering compiled code? I'd appreciate it if you could provide as much detail as possible, as you appear to know something I don't.

 

Because I've had experience doing it. When you decrypt an exe it will look different than if it were opened in the source .cpp file for example. It's a lot more literal and easy to understand/modify. I know enough C++ to not have problems doing this.

 

The problem with this is that anyone could make a cheating client and connect anywhere... if you want to prevent that, you still need a closed-sourced portion.

 

As for players being able to cheat due to no encryption... I suppose you could do what Priit probably did and use simple executable encryption. Keep a copy of the unecrypted client and make it accessable to only a few trusted devs here? Then you could make changes and then upload a re-encrypted copy. It would be about the same level of security as everyone is used to, so the general player wouldn't be able to exploit.

 

 

EDIT: Again, i'd like to restate the fact that my intentions here were in no means supposed to be harmful. I see a lot of people are somewhat opposed to this idea with the only people with a open mind on this being a small minority. I guess I can't blame you for wanting to keep the game as hack-free as possible.

 

And it seems that the SS Council does not even wish to repond to this. I guess thier take on this one is obvious. I will respect the wishes of the community here and drop the idea. I do not own continuum and have no right to take any matters into my own hands. Just a bummer that the sudden potential for new things will be lost.

 

Back to other things I go, I'll check in on some things from time to time, the day Priit gets off his butt or a new client is made I'll have that itch to dev/play again. Hope everything goes well for you guys in 2010. And keep up the good work on projects like Mervbot, DCME, ASSS, and Discretion. XD

Edited January 19, 2010 by Solitron

[»Ceiu]

...

 

Because I've had experience doing it. When you decrypt an exe it will look different than if it were opened in the source .cpp file for example. It's a lot more literal and easy to understand/modify. I know enough C++ to not have problems doing this.

 

That was absolutely no help. Let's try this again...

What program(s) are you using to assist you in doing this? I highly doubt you're busting out notepad, opening the exe and going to town. I'm essentially asking you for a relative step-by-step for this modification process.

[Dr Brain]

Releasing the physics part of the code would help the community, but don't release the security parts.