BLAH OLD TOPIC

[»Ceiu]

Well, most everyone reading this has probably seen my ranting at some point or another, but I'll do a quick recap just in case.

 

The $3M HSD Alien Techs are overpowered, no question about it. Having them in pub isn't a very big deal, but when it comes to league there should be at least some semblance of balance. Temporal, specifically, is throwing off the game so much, that the team that fields the most ships with Temporal Core wins. In the case of the games I've personally played in or watched, the games were damn near sweeps as well. As an example: The one game I played in, I would have eliminated both Choprock and sprinkle, had it not been for the fact they had more energy/recharge than they would have had without it (Choprock: 3 consecutive HE hits [~1800 damage w/shock], Sprinkle: 2 while he was firing [~1500], 1 while he was redlining [~750]).

I understand that some people believe that grinding out for the "best" items should be rewarded. However, I believe that skill should be the deciding factor, not which team got the players who've put in the most grind hours. If said grinding made the players better, then they should still be able to perform. Sadly, my personal experience tells me that this isn't the case and explains why some people are so resistant to the removal of the 'techs.

Also, keep in mind that the 'techs were never balanced with a league in mind. They were designed to be money sinks for late-reset players. When you only have pub to worry about, balance isn't nearly as big of an issue as it is when you have a skills competition event.

 

 

For those who are willing, and should we decide to do so, I will provide those in league a one-time full refund on a 3m 'tech on their league ships. This should ease the pain of having to use items which aren't completely screwing with the game.

 

 

Update:

Due to the strong suspicion of certain people abusing the fact I'm hiding what people voted for, the poll needs to be restarted. Fucking people...

[Choose Profile]

I'm all for a more level playing field. As long as everyone with alien tech's get full refunds I don't see an issue with this. The better players and teams will still be better without overpowered junk.

[Unix]

Choprock doesn't have a 3m item as far as I know, neither does sprinkle on his jav.

 

HE missile does not always hit 700 damage range.

 

I'll add more later when I am near a computer.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Unix

[»Ceiu]

Lulz, There's Yes vote number two.

 

Choprock has Temporal and Shock. As we discussed before, HE requires a direct hit so it's doing a minimum of 688 (555 w/Shock) if it detonates at the furthest possible pixel (which is unlikely; see below). Don't confuse HE with Smart -- the damage variation due to distance isn't as high as you keep trying to suggest it is. Avg damage is going to be ~730 (~590 w/Shock). My hits on Chop were pretty solid -- The last two made him puff.

 

Min damage hits on bombs are incredibly rare: 4/961 chance on wb/jav. Max damage being even more unlikely @ 1/961 chance.

 

 

AFK HOCKEY

[Unix]

Alright about bomb damage... I know from personal experience that it does not hit 700 range often and I am also well aware that the max damage is 770. If "hitting" with a proxless bomb is enough to cause near max damage, a bomb like falcon will do over 700 consistently, especially with the inactshrap damage, that is not the case.

 

The game in question you're speaking of, in which you played, it's not whoever fields the most temporal cores, it's the team who actually is organized. My team was actually somewhat organized where your team was just all over the place. We were defending each other while your team was just letting them get 1v2, 1v3 etc. Granted our team wasnt too organized either, but we were more than organized enough to the point we could beat a team where they are just running around and not teaming often if ever.

 

I would also like to say that your build is not setup to combat high energy builds in general. So saying you're outmatched against temporal core would be a given. From what I know of your build, it has decent energy and relatively high speeds. Against a high energy build you need to cause high damage and do it quickly.

 

If I remember correctly, your gun last night was plasma. Plasma has two major problems when using it, firstly it doesnt have a good dps and secondly it costs quite a bit to shoot. I'm not sure how you expect to kill a player that can dodge decently and has high energy with that gun or build. Against temporal core users, it's even worse because they can also recharge against you.

[Linear-Key]

I'm fine with the temporary removal of 3M Aliens so long as I am fully reimbursed.

[»Ceiu]

Alright about bomb damage... I know from personal experience that it does not hit 700 range often and I am also well aware that the max damage is 770. If "hitting" with a proxless bomb is enough to cause near max damage, a bomb like falcon will do over 700 consistently, especially with the inactshrap damage, that is not the case.

 

Having people bomb while you sit in spec does not constitute an "understanding" of how bomb damage works. You keep demonstrating this over and over again.

 

Bomb Damage = Base * ((Level * Blast Pixels - Distance)/(Level * Blast Pixels))

 

With current Warbird/Jav size a non-prox hit will do, at minimum:

L1: 606

L2: 688

L3: 715

L4: 729

 

*This does not account for close-bombing, which is stupidly common in this zone because most of you are awful at this game.

 

 

 

 

 

Blah blah blah Unix logic blah blah blah

No. You won because you had more Temporal Core users. I gave two examples of game-changing events that were averted simply because of energy/recharge values that are only reasonably achievable with Temporal. I'm sure that if I had the bot turn on ?watchdamage and really evaluate the damage of a given match, I could point out several other instances almost immediately.

 

If anything, I would say our organization was about the same. The only thing you guys did "right" was covering you during your recoil after the ever-popular Unix Rush™ (which, for the record, wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of working without Temp).

[Unix]

I dont know the formula, nor do I really care about the formula. In all intensive purposes, I am just using knowledge I have gained on my own through the time I've been and played Hyperspace. I for one believe I have played more than you. So saying I spec all the time is half true, but I've played plenty. So you can wave off my own playing experience or not, either way, these things I can attest to and not simply have formulas back my assumptions up.

 

I did ask you before to actually test it with ?watchdamage, rather than just use formulas to assume you're right, since just because you "should" be doing the damage doesnt mean you actually are. In cases of tanks especially or just general lag. I've seen some lag bombs cause MASSIVE damage, while a bomb that hits on my screen doesnt even do any damage to them because it wasnt a hit on theirs.

 

Speaking of which, if you dont have energy scanner, how can you be so sure of anything? For all you know you're simply doing 0 damage because they're tank shots or they in fact didnt do the damage you were expecting?

 

I've personally used this "Unix Rush", that you so politely called it, before I had temporal core. There are several factors to it, it just so happens that Temporal Core caters to it well, especially for someone who can do a "Unix Rush" extremely well. Granted I might not of been able to do it as often, but saying I couldnt do it at all is completely wrong.

 

Our team organization was better, it definitely wasnt the same, especially when we're constantly teaming you and having your team scattered all over. My team generally stayed near one another so that we can defend one another when need be, your team however did not do that all that often and in fact we were teaming you quite easily without much pressure coming from your teammates to prevent that. If you were defending one another, there is no way possible a "Unix Rush" is possible. Two players shooting at me while I'm concentrating on one means that I lose and at best I take out one player.

[Kilo]

In all intensive purposes? I didn't realize the pseudo-LC was also a pseudo-intellectual. The formulas are common knowledge already available, don't be insulting and irrelevant by being stubborn and prideful. Considering you don't/can't count the exact damage that's done to you or anyone else, you have no idea beyond a very general one of how much damage you're taking. Players love to make ridiculous assumptions and erroneous observations as a result...

 

The non-prox bombs all do pretty decent damage (especially Falcon), but ships recover 100-250+ energy in between (for relatively low delay bombs) shots from the same ship (and that's not even taking into account the amount of time it takes to get from ship A to ship B!) So even doing a lot of damage in a bomb doesn't really mean a lot to a high-recharge build unless you finish them or they take damage from something else quickly. The problem in HS is that it's pretty easy to get high recharge (even without Temp) and very high agility to run just enough to prevent being finished.

[Choose Profile]

Why is this even a close vote? The only argument for keeping them around is from the players who don't want to lose their overpowered edge. Obviously the customization in HS makes it unique and appealing, but when the discrepancies between different setups become so large, balance becomes a major issue. There's no doubt that these 3m tech items are the deciding factor.

[kid]

Can we decide on this before tomorrow's match?

[»Ceiu]

In all intensive purposes

Lulz.

 

I dont know the formula, nor do I really care about the formula.

I just gave it to you. Also:

The formulas are common knowledge already available, don't be insulting and irrelevant by being stubborn and prideful.

 

 

 

Why is this even a close vote? The only argument for keeping them around is from the players who don't want to lose their overpowered edge. Obviously the customization in HS makes it unique and appealing, but when the discrepancies between different setups become so large, balance becomes a major issue. There's no doubt that these 3m tech items are the deciding factor.

 

It's close because there's six people (well, five and a certain someone who doesn't even play in league) who are worried about losing their edge. One thing that really makes me laugh whenever I think about this topic is that we're essentially voting whether or not team Unix wins or loses. That in itself should explain the five "yes" votes.

 

 

 

Can we decide on this before tomorrow's match?

 

Probably not. It's still preseason and still an opportunity to work out some of the bugs with the system. Maybe it will, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

[Unix]

I never said that the formula was wrong or anything, but in practical use it just doesnt work perfectly like that. Especially when there are so many items that can change the item, whether it be a lot or little. Shell, Naqudah, shock matrix, etc all change the formula a little, enough to the point where the damage minimum changes to possibly lower or more.

 

It's one thing to understand the formula, but it's another to actually use and implement it in actual use. A real programmer would understand that there is a difference between the two and understand both the developing and implementation side of the argument.

 

There's no way you can know if you were close to finishing off players in league, since you said yourself that you dont have energy scanner. I know of a few builds that can reach relatively high recharges, close to temporal, some even higher than my current temporal makeup. So Arnk saying that the bomb delay matters and changes the actual damage is right too, so just because you shot 2-3 bombs in a row on your screen doesnt mean you were doing the damage you were thinking.

[kid]

It's one thing to understand the formula, but it's another to actually use and implement it in actual use. A real programmer would understand that there is a difference between the two and understand both the developing and implementation side of the argument.

I laughed.

 

 

Unix, techs shouldn't be allowed in league. As someone who uses techs, I admit that it gives an unfair advantage over other players.

[JoWie]

Heh, you mention that formula more often then your window insulation. I have to agree with Unix that you tend to think about raw implementation to often however Edited January 15, 2010 by JoWie

[»Ceiu]

HEEEEEEEEY YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU GAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE

 

I have three words to say to you:

Near. Death. Puff.

 

Learn how this game works, then get back to me.

[JoWie]

What exactly is wrong with her statements besides her damage value not being completely accurate?

[Emit]

theorycrafting noobs get gd kthx