Boosts and Nerfs

[kid]

I will say this just once: just because an item is useless for most people does not mean it is useless. In fact, in nearly every case, it means exactly the opposite.

 

Antimatter mines may be useless for you because it fills a sig slot; all that means is that it's useless to you and your needs. All that means is that you are not the target audience. It's invaluable for my spider build.

 

 

Ok that's all well and good for items that are marginally useful. However, you have to realize there are several aspects items are chosen for. Reasonably, we could assume they are for survivability, killing power, and various basing uses, such as prevention of leakers or leaking. The difference between items is how effectively they do this, with how much energy, and how quickly etc. Most items balance these characteristics out, which is why some people prefer other items. However, there are some items that are outclassed in all of these categories. Look at the example of entropy. What use do you see for it? What build is entropy invaluable for? What about arcfire array? What does arcfire outclass? What situations is it more useful than gauss? What about gigajoule versus shredder?

Edited January 11, 2010 by Courage

[Unix]

I have found at least 2 examples of items that are supposedly 'useless' but I still seem to be able to carry a winning

rec and win flag games etc. with them they would be:

 

Jedlik Dynamo

Positron Gun

 

I understand that Unix doesn't use these items, however I have killed Unix and lots of other self-proclaimed 'pro' players

using them over and over again, admittedly better in certain situational situations in game but come on. Look, I think my point

here is that it doesn't do any good to get pissy and argumentative over what in YOUR opinion are the best items to use in game.

I don't use any of the items that Unix preaches over and over again in game and now in the forums to be the best and I do just great.

 

The other point is that just because Unix says certain items are the best and gets 3 or 4 other people to agree with him, sorry but that

doesn't make it law. Like an unbreakable law of the fucking universe. And that's how people are acting. Sorry if it pisses you off that

somebody isn't agreeing with everything you say or , even , might HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN YOU. BUT THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS. LOL @ U.

I have never said either of those items are useless. I have said though that I do not like those items on a personal use basis all that much. Even then I do realize that those two items are usable, maybe not up to my own personal preferences, but I know they're usable for others.

 

You dont even understand what this topic is about. I never even mentioned positron gun and you brought it up, I dont even think anyone brought it up here other thna you. The topic wasnt made to berate items that are semi useful or useful to a portion of the population. I pointed out items that are very underused because of one reason or another, and items that are just too powerful as is. The two most grossly underused items I mentioned were Oracle and Quad, they're not bad items, and they are usable, but realistically not many will want to or do use them because they're signature items and they dont have the marginal benefit from a normal class item to a signature item that other signature items have.

 

a Case in point yesterday when I was playing in flag games with the new stats report I watched Oid

get 120 / 30 and 166 / 36 kill to death ratios in 2 consecutive games using Positron Gun on a Spider,

that's a pretty big fluff if positron gun is just useless because of a combo with mass driver or whatever.

No one said it was a useless item. And are you seriously telling me I would think a fast bouncing level 3 gun is useless in a base? You really have no idea what you're talking about if you dont understand what I'm trying to get at. I'm not saying these items are the best, I'm saying these items are overused, overpowered. (specifically the combo/mass driver you mentioned)

 

Here's one of the more disturbing things I've witnessed as a relatively newer player in hyperspace:

there's apparently some type of unspoken or made up rule by people called 'Safe Laming' where the mods get to drop thors on

top of your head from afar like fucking prison wardens. we *should* have rules something more along the lines of like,

people are allowed to use what items they like without being constantly badgered and told to use something different,

and *gasp* NEW players should be able to experiement with different item types without being indoctrinated into some

type of weird hyperspace religion that u guys are trying to create or something by bitching at eachother 24/7 about

which item sets are the best and the only ones anyone should use, vs/. which ones are completely useless, nobody should ever use them,

with no in-between ground.

 

Seriously, ask yourself, out of maybe 10-20 new people who grace hyperspace in like, say, a year, how many of them are going

to want to be indoctrinated and told exactly what to do and what items to be used by you? Maybe like 1? Maybe none?

 

Maybe just maybe instead of bitching at eachother about items all the time u should be working more on ditching the 'noob' prejudice

and the constant debating between 'pros' all the fucking time. It gets pretty fucking annoying watching you guys call eachother 'noob'

after every single death or bitching about rep use after every single rep, etc. etc. the list goes on.

Please get back on topic, you dont even know what this is about do you?

 

 

If there isn't a way to fix the fields at the moment, the one disabled brick, etc, could you remove them from the buy list.. It would give the new people less to look through wondering what it does.. Especially if they don't work.. Setting new people up to ask stupid questions usually gets them trolled and ran off.. Bad for pop..

From what people have said, its more along the lines of staff not wanting to fix fields. And personally I'm all for that, base games are a lot more fun if you cant get cleared with one field because you're trapped in your FR or something. More games are more easily ruined with field than brick, even though brick does a fine job at ruining it too. At least with brick, there are some easy fixes to it, but no one in staff has decided to fix it just yet.

 

 

Is there any way the lanc could carry only the small brick, could be useful in center or in ht when being attacked by two or more ships.. May only give a few seconds to evade, but would also give you time to get some help.. Most lancs are not fast enough to get out of gun or bomb range of the smaller ships.. I think this would be used more defensively than offensively seeing as it wont block most hallways fully..

Most lancs generally would call for help. Killing a lanc is already kinda hard because of the massive amount of energy. If your lanc cant move that well, the most likely reasons are your sublight or you're using solid nutronium. And dont forget, REP!

 

 

Make wb and jav auto on signup, if they can be.. Get people involved before they have to go through the whole buy scenario.. Most of the new people I see come in, spend 15 minutes and get frustrated and leave, especially with the fore-mentioned "pros knocking this build, telling them to buy that build".. For some people who play HS regularly they could care less, but new people are always fun to have.. Sometimes they can surprise you and put a total random build to good use.. Would be a lot more helpful if they didn't have to spend the first 10 minutes trying to figure out how to get in the game.. Yes, they could just read F1, but out of 100 new people, how many do you think actually read it.. Not all zones set up their F1 with useful information..

That's actually a nice idea, it's only 500 per ship. Might as well just give it to them since those two are the starter ships. It would also allow players to neut flags as well.

 

A lot of times though, it's the newb asking others what to buy. I think it's more along the lines of them quitting because they cant kill anyone.

 

F1 is outdated anyways.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Unix

[BZAP]

Players will continue to complain about weapons they have trouble overcoming. First it was shredder, then prox, then mass driver, and now temporal gets all the rage. I know many players avoid incorporating these items into their builds at risk of getting ridiculed. Realize that you can always match builds to compete.

[»Ceiu]

Shredder and Mass Driver have never really been much of a concern due to the fact Exoskeleton makes them laughable -- On several occasions, I've let a Mass/Shredder user hit me several times to bait them just because I know it's not going to hurt all that much. Prox is cake if you play a more in-your-face game and don't redline. Temporal doesn't have a counter. There's nothing I can buy short of temporal which counters it, nor is there a playstyle that can be used to make it less effective. It simply outclasses everything else.

The whole "fight fire with fire" argument is stupid. No item should be so good that the only way to effectively deal with it is to use the same thing.

 

 

Point defense:

Whoever thinks this is bad needs to have their head examined. It effectively denies many opponents from getting close to you, allowing you to dictate where and how the battle takes place. Combine this with a prox bomb and some solid rotation and you are officially a pain to deal with. Doubly annoying during basing as it allows you to spam guns and bombs.

 

Everything else that people said that was stupid:

Most standard weapons that have low usage counts I've found a very effective use for. My personal favorites were the L4 weapons. Gigajoule is gross in tunnels (See: large corridor in base 7, most of base 5), as even with the best armor (Adam) you're taking 196 damage per shot (but more likely than not it'll be in the 250-350 range). That quickly cuts through even the most high energy setups. Nova on a weasel makes very short work of defenders turtling in a base spamming guns. Of course, you have to worry a tad about taking out your own team with it, but if you're smart you can easily shut down a wall of spammers.

 

Point is, as Brain said: Everything has a use. I still remember when I was one of four or five people using plasma because everyone said it sucked. Numbers seem quite different now...

That's not to say that some items aren't completely outclassed by others, but that's what this discussion is supposed to fix. However, try to keep in mind that some items just aren't comparable to others and that often times what makes an item bad is public opinion and personal values rather than actual usefulness.

[ArcticxWolf]

Everything else that people said that was stupid:

Most standard weapons that have low usage counts I've found a very effective use for.

 

May I request some examples?

 

My personal favorites were the L4 weapons. Gigajoule is gross in tunnels (See: large corridor in base 7, most of base 5), as even with the best armor (Adam) you're taking 196 damage per shot (but more likely than not it'll be in the 250-350 range). That quickly cuts through even the most high energy setups.

 

Also takes 108 Energy to shoot. I've still yet to see a successful build that uses this.

 

Nova on a weasel makes very short work of defenders turtling in a base spamming guns. Of course, you have to worry a tad about taking out your own team with it, but if you're smart you can easily shut down a wall of spammers.

 

How often is a competent team of defenders going to let you just sit there spamming nova? They're going to get repped 80% of the time, and 80% of the time, you're going to end up killing your own team.

 

Point is, as Brain said: Everything has a use.

 

Although some are not quite as effective as others, yes.

 

I still remember when I was one of four or five people using plasma because everyone said it sucked.

 

When was that?

 

That's not to say that some items aren't completely outclassed by others, but that's what this discussion is supposed to fix. However, try to keep in mind that some items just aren't comparable to others and that often times what makes an item bad is public opinion and personal values rather than actual usefulness.

 

I understand, although for people to just dismiss every single idea I made just because of that without even addressing any of them makes me a sad panda, especially when I took the time and effort to write it.

Edited January 11, 2010 by ArcticxWolf

[AphexTwin]

 

 

You dont even understand what this topic is about.

 

You really have no idea what you're talking about

 

Please get back on topic, you dont even know what this is about do you?

 

 

I don't know u sure said it a lot of times, is that what makes it true?

 

idono i think i pretty much get what your saying about all the items u have problems with,

its just that I don't use a single one of them, any of the ones you say are overused/overpowered

or any of the ones that u say are underused/underpowered. Which I guess just means I don't

really care. No offense but it looks like you spent way too much time doing

a bunch of research nobody cares about. Way too much research even. I know that sounds pretty harsh

but I just think the item discussions are a little bit used up. Telling people what

items to use and which ones are better or worse is never going to get them to change their

mind. Ultimately each person is just going to figure out what works best for them over a series of personal

tests, most of them in game and not in a private arena or whatever over-analysing everything.

 

- AphexTwin

[Kilo]

I guess I probably shouldn't mess with items until this "league" is done, eh? That's no fun, though.

[»Ceiu]

You should mess with them during a match for optimal trickery.

[JoWie]

Someone suggests a few small tweaks and people start bitching about how those items can still be useful. No shit, ofcourse they are currently useful, but compared to other items they could use some small improvements

[kid]

Someone suggests a few small tweaks and people start bitching about how those items can still be useful. No shit, ofcourse they are currently useful, but compared to other items they could use some small improvements

I like you, Jowie.

[Cheese]

stuff to improve:

 

shrap booster

entropy

oracle/system op

glow cover

unsig coils

 

 

also, peoples money is piling up, it would indeed be nice to see extra cap and extra sig actually be attainable...

and as an owner of multiple temp cores, i keep watching it get nerfed and nerfed, and it was terrible already, (+10rech can be reached with no sigs already), and a sig reactor means you cant have a sig anything else.

i would gladly take a refund for my temp cores...

[Unix]

Shrap booster is already pretty powerful for the purpose it has. Which isnt to be used as a gun, but to cause shrap to cause more damage, especially in terms of inactshrap damage.

 

System Optimizer isnt a bad sig, if used properly it can become pretty potent, it just isnt a very "exciting" sig item I guess is a way to put it.

 

Glow Cover is probably the best non sig armor in terms of stats, the only major draw back is that the -1 e/r, some people think its worth the penalty... I guess having it boosted wouldnt be bad. Especially when you consider 1e for my ships is more than the bomb protection you receive.

 

If radiating coils were to be unsigged, it would require a major nerf.

[kid]

If radiating coils were to be unsigged, it would require a major nerf.

 

Or you could consider it a nerf for bursts, which appears to be in order.