SSC Access

[»Lynx]

Hrmm... I think that the only thing that should be considered is whether the new client can obsolete Continuum in it's current state. Seeing as any new client going to have to be open source, number two shouldn't matter and I could bet that once the client is accepted as the main client for the game - there will be a lot more community involvement, which kinda marks out number three. The only issue is a client being able to obsolete Continuum. It will be here eventually, but until then this shouldn't really be a major concern for the SSC.

 

I personally think that if the SSC could remove more of their reliance on PriitK things could be a LOT better, but it's just a case of doing so with the least bumpy ride along the way. Ultimately, until then the SSC will be just as impotent at significantly changing anything - and will just be a communication portal between zone owners, SSC zone hosts (and apparently some developers too).

[PoLiX]

It took priit ~3-4yrs of work to get a decent enough client for everyone to accept and move on to. The 1st few years was nothing but programming and developing and testing.

 

The problem is, Priit was a rare person. Someone who made money from other work, and had hours and hours of his day to dedicate to programming. I don't think we'll ever find someone like that again. And the ones we do, are already working on other games that have a large population and are growing/developing already.

 

Our best bet is to get everyone focused on 1 client, and do it as 1 large community effort.

 

And remember... it was about 2yrs before we totally dropped SubSpace for Continuum.

[Kilo]

Actually there has been and currently is talk within the Council about a new client.

Really?! I never would have guessed. Thanks for filling me in.

 

The problem is finding somebody who is:

A ) Capable

B ) Trustworthy enough

C ) Has time

 

Most of the "Major Devs" in subspace has 2 of the 3 above. Most of them (probably 95%) is missing C.

The reason why it's a bad thing is that people are already doing work without some obscure body telling them to do so or how to do it (or even worse, getting money involved.) Why would we discourage people to do work at this point by backing one particular (possibly new) project? That is insane and destructive. People already have their own motivations to do this, and their own ideas of how to do it. When a work gets to the point of being able to supercede Continuum only then would it make sense to step in and make some last minute requirements (in terms of must-haves for it to be recognized beyond individual zones.) If we were at a point where no one was making anything and we had to take initiative as a collective game to do it this plan would make sense.

 

You are correct about the requirements, and that many of the major devs in SS have B, but I would not be so sure about A. This is not something that just anyone (even the best of us) can do, because to do it right requires A in excess. The level of design work for the kind of output we're all looking for (extensible is what I said) is daunting at best. Anyone can code something, but the tougher part is engineering a good solution and designing it properly. Which of course requires C in excess. I think the people who demonstrate C are the ones already working and the ones who demonstrate A are the ones who aren't making an inflexible pile of junk. B is inferred from those traits really.

[Dr Brain]

I agree that backing a client at this point is a bad idea. Why put off other potential developers by locking in early? It gains nothing, but potentially loses the community a better client.

[General Shadow]

OK, I am really lost. What are people talkin about?

[Chambahs]

Snrrrub was willing, but you guys blew that one. Good job.

[Hakaku]

Snrrrub was willing, but you guys blew that one. Good job.

To make a new client? No he wasn't. He considered toying with the idea, but that was it.

 

 

Also, I don't understand why people are talking about a client as if there's rivalry. Rivalry between what? Discretion is honestly the only client that shows progress. There's no reason to keep stating that no client will be able to take over unless it has the same features and better than Continuum, that's more or less an accepted truth already, and no one has ever stated that a client still in early development is necessarily better than the one that exists. However, Continuum wasn't greater than SubSpace when it first popped about either. Yet, it did end up replacing SubSpace on the premise that it was being actively developed and addressed some of the more pressing issues of the time. Likewise, ASSS is basically levelling the playing field by improving on the weaker points of Subgame and bots. In the end, yes the client will be the one to have to prove itself, but zone owners will be the ones ultimately forcing the change regardless of the council or any pseudo 'backing'.

[Dr Brain]

Discretion may be the only client that shows progress *now*, but it's a long ways from completion. There's still plenty of time for a new client to spring up.

[»jabjabjab]

Gaa it's always opinions with this game. I dont give a fuck if something is long term from completion, that just shows that you dont believe that anything can happen. If you believe something is not going to make it, then help it damn it! It is open source. Im not saying do help discretion because im sure all of you have lives, but as far as you go dr brain, hyperspace is good and stable. If you have time, help Bak out.

 

As far as this whole thing about converting goes, dont be so tight about it. Being tight about all this rediculously easy things has got us to this place. honestly.

 

 

Stop talking and start putting efforts into one area. Maybe it wont be discretion to be the next client, but one person cannot build an entire client by himself and make it before this game becomes completly abandoned.

[aquarius]

There's still plenty of time for a new client to spring up.

 

I agree, the door should remain open. There's some very talented programmers who love this game, and would love to sit down and perfect a new client. I know there are at least a few 'A' coders who think about ways to design a new client, and may have even started.

 

but 'A' keeps you busy in life.

[PoLiX]

Snrrrub was willing, but you guys blew that one. Good job.

 

Actually during our conversations, he toyed with the idea, but was not willing unless more people with the skills needed also stepped up. Sadly this never was the case during any of his projects as it was a normal complaint of his that they need to figure it out themselves. He wasn't going to do all the work, though that was his decision. Someone who has the right mindset to just do it regardless will do it, cause it is something that can't be forced.

[MikeTheNose]

There is so many misconceptions about the council here. Amazing how people don't know what actually goes on around this game.

[Kilo]

Snrrrub was willing, but you guys blew that one. Good job.

Who's "you guys"?

Who is snrrrub? No one that is going to get us a replacement in significantly less time than anyone else, that's for sure, so what was the point of this post?

 

hyperspace is good and stable.

I lol'd.

 

Hakaku: You repeated what I was saying a few posts up, except no one is saying there is any sort of rivalry. What I am saying is that it is inappropriate for a central authority (more like a central advisory really) to do anything at this point, because there is nothing they can really do to make development go faster, and the people working on the project are going to (like it or not) take care of what they want to work on first.

 

 

jjj: One person will almost certainly be doing the bulk of one client though because it's going to take someone with A B and C (see above) to move past the initial hurdles. Discretion has moved past a lot of the initial hurdles but it still has a long way to go. I don't know about any other client, but I suspect they have more hurdles to clear yet. Many of these hurdles can only be solved by the project leader. You make it sound like all that people have to do is help and work will get done--that is far from the truth, at this point. If this were a professional entity and thus had reliable entities (no one in SS is, not even the most active ones, really), then it would be a different story.

 

 

MTN: Lack of communication might be an issue!

Edited December 25, 2009 by Kilo

[Chambahs]

LOL @ who is snrrrub.

 

Just sit the fuck down and stfu, thanks.

 

And "you guys" obviously doesnt apply to you if you dont know who im talking to. People that read "you guys" and know who im talking to are the ones that its directed towards. Just stay off this thread, thanks. You are just embarrassing yourself.

[Hakaku]

Hakaku: You repeated what I was saying a few posts up, except no one is saying there is any sort of rivalry. What I am saying is that it is inappropriate for a central authority (more like a central advisory really) to do anything at this point, because there is nothing they can really do to make development go faster, and the people working on the project are going to (like it or not) take care of what they want to work on first.

Yeah, I know my post is partly redundant, but I don't exactly have the same opinion as you. To me, it seems people are afraid to get their feet wet merely because it seemingly gives an unfair advantage to a specific project or that it's premature trying to promote a project that may or may not ever hold out on its promise. I really don't see anything wrong with this 'central authority' (however you care to define that) discussing matters pertaining to a certain project in relation to other ones. If anything, it could be beneficial for the project by sparking more awareness about it. Why constantly play the fear game of effort wasted when effort was never put in at all? The worse that can happen is that the project ceases, giving way to another.

 

Case in point: my own signature promotes pspace, which is a now defunct game client developed by a player named Pyxlz. This signature alone has made people aware of the possibility for an alternative client. While you could say the project ceased to be, the source remains there for the benefit of other users. Failure doesn't surmount to nothing, it helps us learn from our mistakes and spread information and knowledge relevant to it.

 

Realistically, we can agree that no council, comity, group of players, individuals, etc., can decide the fate of the game through discussion about a project. The project will, if successful, prove itself on its own. But I don't believe that opting for stagnation is a better choice. To add, a developper set to surpass a currently backed project, i.e. the monopoly, will simply do it rather than whining 24/7 that the monopoly holds all the cards. If this new project proves itself, then that's what will end up the *now* as Dr Brain so kindly put it. What's wrong with supporting this new project? Why must we step down because invisible projects of the future won't have a fair chance?

[Kilo]

LOL @ who is snrrrub.

 

Just sit the fuck down and stfu, thanks.

 

And "you guys" obviously doesnt apply to you if you dont know who im talking to. People that read "you guys" and know who im talking to are the ones that its directed towards. Just stay off this thread, thanks. You are just embarrassing yourself.

Whooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

[»doc flabby]

Hakaku: Agree with everything you say. I'd be quite happy for the council to put its weight behind discretion, SS2 has not proved itself to the degree Discretion has in terms of completion. I disagree with Kilo's suggestion that a central agency cannot have an influence, even if it provides no direct help, by stating a client is backed by the subspace community, it will attract developers too it, as they know it has backing. If someone said, you want to work on the official replacement for continuum? I think people would look at differently to some random unsupported project.

 

Myself I think Subspace II will surpass discretion eventually, or I wouldn't continue with the project I'm hoping to release a demo in the new year, I'm very excited about the direction its going in.

 

There is so many misconceptions about the council here. Amazing how people don't know what actually goes on around this game.

Because the whole discussion process is so closed to everyone else, we have no idea what goes on, we have to makes guesses and speculate. Lack of information breeds rumours.

Edited December 25, 2009 by doc flabby

[»Ceiu]

Before I begin, I do want to say that there was a lot of tl;dr in the above posts (especially with Confess), so if I missed something... yeah.

 

Regarding the client:

Making a subspace client would be trivial with some of the dev tools that exist these days. The protocol is pretty much completely documented and even those unfamiliar with it can look at the existing client(s) and have a pretty good idea on what needs to be done. The problem, however, is in the security of the client. Despite all the crap wrong with Continuum, it's held up fairly well against most cheating attempts. Ideally, we'd like new clients to be at least as secure as Continuum, or we run the risk of seeing Twister two point oh. Not to mention, the backlash of even one cheater in a relatively new client may scare enough people "in charge" away from it and end up completely wasting the developer(s) time. Bak has some interesting ideas with cheating prevention/detection in Discretion, and I'd really like to see how that progresses.

 

Another major issue is going to be the drama and bullshit politics this game has. However, if the council starts changing, maybe some of the useless asshats will get tossed to the curb once people realize their bullshit isn't worth the meager contributions they provide. I could continue on this, but it would turn into a massive off-topic rant calling out the people who I feel need to swallow some razor blades.

In a nutshell: Make it easier for developers (new & old) to get shit done without dealing with unnecessary crap. Ditch the whiners who feel they have a monopoly on zone themes/games. Ditch the idiots who claim they're holding this game up when they are only around an hour or two a week/month/year. Ditch the jackasses who don't do anything, yet somehow have this undeserved sense of entitlement. Ditch the assholes who feel they can do whatever they want and shouldn't be subjected to any checks & balances (you know who you are, fucko).

 

...

 

Aaaaand I've completely lost my train of thought. Awesome.

 

 

Because the whole discussion process is so closed to everyone else, we have no idea what goes on, we have to makes guesses and speculate. Lack of information breeds rumours.

Indeed. There's a whole lot of that "you don't need to know" mentality within the people "in power," which I, and several others, find to be quite annoying and very counter-productive. Even if you don't intend on changing your mind on a given topic, does it really hurt to help other people understand your position? Seriously, what's the worst thing that could happen by explaining the reasoning behind a given action?

[Steigerwald]

number one reason why projects fail / die in the business world is lack of solid communication channels. and this day in age its not really what you do, its how you do it that really matters. Edited December 25, 2009 by Steigerwald

[Gravitron]

There is so many misconceptions about the council here. Amazing how people don't know what actually goes on around this game.

I doubt anyone has the misconception of the council being competent and able to sit and discuss an issue proper.

Everyone knows that they can't even agree if they want to piss, much less pick a pot to piss in.

 

 

The security of Continuum is not the end-all-be-all some make it out to be. Priit may be good at encryption, but he's not a top notch security expert.

The only viable security of Continuum is that with it being closed-source it'd merely take some tinkering with the protocol over at his host end with his modified subgame and a redistribution of a modified client and it'd render any cheat tools redundant, until they'll be reconfigured again to work with the new version that is. Supposedly, this is something that is very easy to do and thus is quicker to roll out than the adaptation of new cheats - a war of attrition which will, hopefully, eventually wear off the hacker. The problem arises whence the one and only person who has the access to do so becomes absent rendering the entire measure moot.

Continuum itself was already cracked, multiple times. It was cracked by some people who worked out the protocol. It was hacked by Sage over the first few versions to adapt Twister to it. And there are even still methods of cheating which it does not (fully) address.

The only real way to protect from cheating is to allow the server to gather as much metrics of the client as possible (*watchdmg sort of features) as to allow a discerning supervisor to be able to gather sufficient information to indict a player of criminal activity (this will also go long ways towards being able to justify bans to the general public and quell rumors of improper ban, political ban, outrage from friends/squads of the player, et cetera noise).

Edited December 25, 2009 by Ori Klein

[Steigerwald]

[redacted]

Edited February 28, 2014 by Steigerwald

[aquarius]

because he might not

[aquarius]

none of us are going to run around cheating.

a cheat released to the public that a monkey could operate is the only way a cheating epidemic could occur (cheating, banning, evading and more cheating)

[Confess]

LOL @ who is snrrrub.Just sit the fuck down and stfu, thanks.And "you guys" obviously doesnt apply to you if you dont know who im talking to. People that read "you guys" and know who im talking to are the ones that its directed towards. Just stay off this thread, thanks. You are just embarrassing yourself.

Chambahs, people have been banned for less then your arrogance/rude unhelpful attitude, I do believe. We're all trying to legitimately discuss plans that will affect the welfare of the game, while you make only comments such as "HAHAA you're stupid" and "HAHAHAHA I HATE YOU!". No offense, but this is very kindergardenish.

 

Anyways, back on the subject - While I wasnt able to read all of these posts, I do agree with a lot of them. One person cannot have the source for a new client, it must be distributed Openly (as in, open source), or atleast have a group of people (such as your council) that develops it + is kind to the public's wishes.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Confess

[Gravitron]

We're all trying to legitimately discuss plans that will affect the welfare of the game

In all honesty, and as much as it pains me to do so, I'd side with the dimwit (Chambahs) and call you stupid. "HAHAHA, you're stupid"

 

Plans that will affect the welfare of the game? Sorry, no.

The game is already dead. What may be affected is what meager population of tired dogs that is left. Your 'plans' are moot and irrelevant, they affect nobody.

The only change possible for this game will come from either someone with money who can pay for advertisements and hosting service or from someone with keen knowledge of game programming and willingness to commit the time to actually produce something tangible. Everything else is mere empty vocals which carry no weight. By deeds, not by words. The sooner that you realize it to be so and cease grinding syllables like Don Quixote's eternal windmills the better.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Ori Klein