SG3 Vision

Dr Brain · November 23, 2009

The only reason you give for ASSS not being complete is that Subgame users cannot easily switch to it. You gave no other reasoning.

Using that same logic, Subgame is not complete because ASSS users cannot easily switch to it. QED

»jabjabjab · November 23, 2009

Im just glad that nowadays, we have a 2nd choice.

L.C. · November 23, 2009

The ability to completely change ASSS structure through a single conf/ini file. More specifically, define where all LVZ, LVL, CFG (and their conf), CONF, GroupDef, and PY/DLL/modules are located.
- With this I could theoretically preconfigure GroupDef to match Subgame2: read from specified "//." for each GroupDef, and then as a result allow converting Subgame2 users to simply copy and paste vip.txt, moderate.txt, smod.txt, and sysop.txt into whatever specified directory.
- I could configure LVZ, LVL, and CFG/conf to be in the root directory or something.
- I could configure where arena folders are located (ie. (default), (public), and any other 'arena' specific) -- would be part of original request though.
[*]Ability to set ? similar to ?help, ?cheater, and ?illegal.
[*]Ability to set the current ?help/man as ?.
[*]Ability to require zone commands to begin with ?, *, both, or custom.
[*]Ability to set location of news.txt, Continuum.exe, scrty and scrty1
[*]Ability to set location and name of modules.conf file
[*]Ability to rename the main conf file (probably via "asss.exe -parameter" or something)

If this could exist, then I think I could put together a packaging of ASSS that looks almost completely identical to Subgame2 and might "seemingly" function like Subgame2 while still being ASSS. It could be a nice persuading bridge to get Subgame2 users to convert.

EDIT: Hope I am not misunderstanding. I think I see what you are saying ... you are asking what I mean by "polish," right?

EDIT2: I do realize that all of this can be done via coding, but I am thinking more so of an option within the main conf file (ie. cmdHelp=help, cmdAlert=cheater,illegal, NewsFile=..\news.txt, scrtyFiles=..).

Question #1: I can use "#include file.ext" anywhere, right? If so, then that would already eliminate the first sub-bullet of the first bullet.

Question #2: Is it really necessary to customly compile ASSS for each unique machine?

EDIT3 (11/24): Edited out spoiler tags from all my posts.

Edited November 24, 2009 by L.C.

Dr Brain · November 23, 2009

First off, stop speaking in spoiler tags. Your comments aren't considered spoilers.

Ability to set ? similar to ?help, ?cheater, and ?illegal.

Already possible.

Ability to set the current ?help/man as ?.

Already possible.

Ability to require zone commands to begin with ?, *, both, or custom.

Why? ASSS uses both by default. If you want to use *command instead of ?command, that's your business.

Question #2: Is it really necessary to customly compile ASSS for each unique machine?

No.

I've already commented on the other stuff by saying I won't be changing the directory structure of ASSS to make it more cumbersome and harder to administrate. The directory structure is a POSITIVE. Every sysop knows how frustrating it is to have the files for 100+ subarenas cluttering the main folder.

L.C. · November 23, 2009

Why? ASSS uses both by default. If you want to use *command instead of ?command, that's your business.

To give the option. I think it is sloppy to allow simultaneous use, but as you say, "that is your business" in the sense that it is what suits you. By giving this option, you add flexibility on backend (level 1).

?help/man, ?cheater/illegal
Already possible.

How do I go about doing this? :?

I've already commented on the other stuff by saying I won't be changing the directory structure of ASSS to make it more cumbersome and harder to administrate.

I am not asking you to change it, period. I am asking you to add the straight and direct flexibility in global.conf to change the directory structure, and by command-line parameter or something be able to rename and relocate global.conf.

Every sysop knows how frustrating it is to have the files for 100+ subarenas cluttering the main folder.

What I have observed within the last few posts is that there are two immediate groups of people -- both of different mindset and perspective: one likes the Subgame2 style where they can just dump their garbage in one folder, and the other likes the ASSS/Linux style where things are organized in a logical directory structure.

I disagree with the part where the ASSS/Linux style is forced and would require having to modify the code rather than do it in a simple way from global.conf. By giving this option, flexibility on backend (level 1) is increased. Not everyone knows how to program, and nobody should be required to program or forced to live with a certain style that doesn't conform to their mental mindset. They should have the easy ability to change it with a few keystrokes.

I would be willing to personally package and maintain a Win32 ASSS setup specially for Subgame2 users. In this way, you do not have to worry about this sector and can release the Win32 ASSS parallel to Linux ASSS (I will take the effort to grab updated content from Win32 ASSS, apply it to my setup, etc).

1. I had an idea for the #include thing. Would it be possible (or is it already) to include a certain [Category] from a specific file?

2. I have been told that ASSS does not like special and weird characters (like the 'return' or 'enter' character). Is this true?

3. Is tinymap.lvl compiled into ASSS? Is there some way I can replace it via HEX/Resource editor? I think that tile at 0,0 should at least be changed to Tile #254 (invisible on radar, invisible on screen, doesn't really have a function).

4. Is ASSS able to dynamically place tiles into the map? In the Sniper versions, shooting a green behaved like Tile #191.

Edited November 23, 2009 by L.C.

**Samapico** · November 23, 2009

3. Is tinymap.lvl compiled into ASSS? Is there some way I can replace it via HEX/Resource editor? I think that tile at 0,0 should at least be changed to Tile #254 (invisible on radar, invisible on screen, doesn't really have a function).

uh?

4. Is ASSS able to dynamically place tiles into the map? In the Sniper versions, shooting a green behaved like Tile #191.

The problem here is that the client reads the map only once after the download. This would require a new 'tile X,Y has changed to Z' packet.

If the greens you speak of did in fact internally use a tile ID, it was most likely a local thing. i.e. the server never had any idea of what greens were shot.

Hakaku · November 23, 2009

How do I go about doing this? :?

http://forums.minegoboom.com/viewtopic.php?t=8304

1. I had an idea for the #include thing. Would it be possible (or is it already) to include a certain [Category] from a specific file?

No, you can only include entire files. Note, however, that the last occurence of a certain setting in a file will be used. So you could include an entire settings file from a different arena, then append the rest of the modifications you need for your new arena (this is currently what's already done when you change arena settings in-game or create a new arena).

2. I have been told that ASSS does not like special and weird characters (like the 'return' or 'enter' character). Is this true?

I don't understand. In what context do you need to use return/enter characters?

Is tinymap.lvl compiled into ASSS? Is there some way I can replace it via HEX/Resource editor? I think that tile at 0,0 should at least be changed to Tile #254 (invisible on radar, invisible on screen, doesn't really have a function).

No, smallmap.lvl is in your map folder. I'm not really sure what tile you're talking about because it's not there for me.

Dr Brain · November 23, 2009

Why? ASSS uses both by default. If you want to use *command instead of ?command, that's your business.
To give the option. I think it is sloppy to allow simultaneous use, but as you say, "that is your business" in the sense that it is what suits you. By giving this option, you add flexibility on backend (level 1).

No, it adds inflexibility. Why do you want to force your players and staffers to conform to what you like?

I disagree with the part where the ASSS/Linux style is forced and would require having to modify the code rather than do it in a simple way from global.conf. By giving this option, flexibility on backend (level 1) is increased. Not everyone knows how to program, and nobody should be required to program or forced to live with a certain style that doesn't conform to their mental mindset. They should have the easy ability to change it with a few keystrokes.

I would be willing to personally package and maintain a Win32 ASSS setup specially for Subgame2 users. In this way, you do not have to worry about this sector and can release the Win32 ASSS parallel to Linux ASSS (I will take the effort to grab updated content from Win32 ASSS, apply it to my setup, etc).

My problem isn't that you want to use this stuff for your zones, it's that you'll be trying to get others to use it. I think that would be a great disservice to them. A greater disservice than keeping them on Subgame. Here's why:

It hides all of the advantages that ASSS offers, eliminating the entire point of changing. It doesn't hide the drawbacks, though, like the fact that their moderators have to learn a different command set. When all is said and done, they'll switch back to Subgame and never go back to ASSS, and convince all of their friends that it was a dumb system.
If they don't switch back, they'll probably never know there's a better way to do things (yes, better).
It makes it harder for community members offering support if there are multiple ways to configure things. Especially when you consider that none of the expert users will be using your configuration.

L.C. · November 23, 2009

First off, stop speaking in spoiler tags. Your comments aren't considered spoilers.

Correct, my comments are not considered spoilers. However, this does not necessarily mean they are intended to be spoilers either. Perhaps I want to organize my post to conserve vertical space for those who do not want to be overwhelmed by a mass of text they can't hide (unless then resize their window or cover their screen with black paper).

No, you can only include entire files. Note, however, that the last occurence of a certain setting in a file will be used. So you could include an entire settings file from a different arena, then append the rest of the modifications you need for your new arena (this is currently what's already done when you change arena settings in-game or create a new arena).

Well, it would be nice if it were possible to include only specific [Category]'s from a specified file rather than the whole file. Perhaps it could be written as

#include

Where is the name of the categories in between [], separated by commas (no spacing in between).

I don't understand. In what context do you need to use return/enter characters?

If you try to join Jackpot SVS (DEV) in its present state, Continuum will crash before it even gets to the fullscreen loading screen. I was told that this may be because my configuration/settings files may contain special and weird characters like the character for return (which has the same function as \n), and ASSS does not handle such very well.

I have noticed that I cannot simply open any of the files in Notepad, but have to use a program like Notepad++ or Wordpad. (Sidenote: I don't like this)

No, smallmap.lvl is in your map folder. I'm not really sure what tile you're talking about because it's not there for me.

Delete smallmap.lvl and then run ASSS.

No, it adds inflexibility. Why do you want to force your players and staffers to conform to what you like?

This logic can be turned around: you are adding inflexibility by forcing literally everyone (who is not a programmer or does not know how to program) to conform to the organizational design, doctrine and structure of a Linux-styled system.

To illustrate, some people like to have their tools organized to perfection in their sheds/garages. Other people like to have all their tools spread out in a mess in front of them. Reason: different people have different mindsets and ways of organizing and coping.

(Please do not take or read this next paragraph personally.)

By forcing everyone to adapt to a "mindset" or organizational heirarchy that are plain and simply not their way of working, development of 'product' is very biased and could possibly even be said as discriminatory. Of course, nobody is forcing anyone to use ASSS, but by the fact that you may be disagreeing or refusing to accept a common realistic psychological characteristic -- I think -- would indicate that you are being biased and hypocritical in that "to conform to what you like" and using the excuse "that is your business" to fend off neutral suggestions that could prove advantageous and beneficial to the future of ASSS and Discretion.

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with "it adds inflexibility" for the reasons described above. I cannot make a logical connection to see how it would add inflexibility; hypothetically, if these abilities were implemented, you would not have to ever use this feature. Defaults would be hardcoded in as such so that you wouldn't even have to include anything in global.conf of the original ASSS releases (just like how http://forums.minegoboom.com/viewtopic.php?t=8304 is not in global.conf by default, even as comments).

it's that you'll be trying to get others to use it. I think that would be a great disservice to them. A greater disservice than keeping them on Subgame.

As previously said in this post, different people have different mindsets and ways of organizing their stuff. Some people like to have their workshop tools and wrenchs organized all nice and tidy while some people like to "dump shit into one folder" (quoting off of someone from MGB forums or some SS log). In my family, there is a clear distinction between my family members of who likes to "dump shit into one folder" when it comes to tools. Strangely enough, I am the one who would be organizing all my tools, but my father (sort of) and my 3rd youngest brother are clearly the kinds that work and function better when they have all their "shit dumped into one folder".

It hides all of the advantages that ASSS offers, eliminating the entire point of changing.

What? Is it the modularity and group definitions of ASSS? I disagree. If the community and game is to move forward, you need to move everyone over to a consistent foundation. It is about influence and simply the fact of "people using ASSS" that I think truly matters right now in the progression of the game.

If Continuum is updated with new features, chances are that Subgame2 has to be updated to support those new features in Continuum (if it involves server and client in some way). As a result, using this logic, it is extremely important that people switch to ASSS for the sake of Discretion (until then then or a certain point in time, it is not a major issue -- still has some ways to go). I think it would be very detrimental to the further continuation of Subspace to "biased" and force people to a work environment that does not match, fit, conform or work with their mental organization and mindset.

It doesn't hide the drawbacks, though, like the fact that their moderators have to learn a different command set.

I see most ASSS users referring to ASSS commands with ? instead of *. I think that scares them. If I can create a bridge that reassures some worries by using * as a marketing tool, then perhaps, along with all the other things I would plan to do, could bring them over more easily.

However, no matter what you do (even if you take my suggestions and feature ideas and implement them) there will at least be one person who will not convert over, and this is fine. At some point you have to draw a fine line between "fanboyism" (and the unrealistic extremities of beliefs).

If they don't switch back, they'll probably never know there's a better way to do things (yes, better).

If you are referring to the directory structuring of ASSS, then I will simply say that this is your opinion, you have the right to it, and I also respect both your right and your opinion. However, as I said before, I strongly do not agree for described reasons.

Otherwise, elaborate more on the term better.

It makes it harder for community members offering support if there are multiple ways to configure things. Especially when you consider that none of the expert users will be using your configuration.

Then they have the liberty to not offer any assistance. And this does not necessarily mean that all problems are unsolveable problems because of/as "a result of being so entirely different from the default setup of ASSS". Edited November 23, 2009 by L.C.

Dr Brain · November 23, 2009

Correct, my comments are not considered spoilers. However, this does not necessarily mean they are intended to be spoilers either. Perhaps I want to organize my post to conserve vertical space for those who do not want to be overwhelmed by a mass of text they can't hide (unless then resize their window or cover their screen with black paper).

If they don't want to see your comments, in your thread, why are they even reading it? It might make sense if you were putting off topic comments in spoiler tags.

If you try to join Jackpot SVS (DEV) in its present state, Continuum will crash before it even gets to the fullscreen loading screen. I was told that this may be because my configuration/settings files may contain special and weird characters like the character for return (which has the same function as \n), and ASSS does not handle such very well.

ASSS handles newline characters as well as any other program, including Subgame. More likely, you forgot some settings that continuum needs. Make sure you #include the svs settings (or any other complete settings) somewhere in your arena.conf.

I have noticed that I cannot simply open any of the files in Notepad, but have to use a program like Notepad++ or Wordpad. (Sidenote: I don't like this)

That's a problem with Notepad, not ASSS. There are hundreds of programs that will swap unix line endings for windows line endings. Notepad++ will do it, for example.

No, smallmap.lvl is in your map folder. I'm not really sure what tile you're talking about because it's not there for me.
Delete smallmap.lvl and then run ASSS.

You want to change the 1 tile map that is displayed when the server admin screws up their configuration? No one should see that except admins. It'd be 0 tiles, but presumably continuum doesn't accept that (I've never bothered to check it personally).

No, it adds inflexibility. Why do you want to force your players and staffers to conform to what you like?
This logic can be turned around: you are adding inflexibility by forcing literally everyone (who is not a programmer or does not know how to program) to conform to the organizational design, doctrine and structure of a Linux-styled system.

To illustrate, some people like to have their tools organized to perfection in their sheds/garages. Other people like to have all their tools spread out in a mess in front of them. Reason: different people have different mindsets and ways of organizing and coping.

(Please do not take or read this next paragraph personally.)

By forcing everyone to adapt to a "mindset" or organizational heirarchy that are plain and simply not their way of working, development of 'product' is very biased and could possibly even be said as discriminatory. Of course, nobody is forcing anyone to use ASSS, but by the fact that you may be disagreeing or refusing to accept a common realistic psychological characteristic -- I think -- would indicate that you are being biased and hypocritical in that "to conform to what you like" and using the excuse "that is your business" to fend off neutral suggestions that could prove advantageous and beneficial to the future of ASSS and Discretion.

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with "it adds inflexibility" for the reasons described above. I cannot make a logical connection to see how it would add inflexibility; hypothetically, if these abilities were implemented, you would not have to ever use this feature. Defaults would be hardcoded in as such so that you wouldn't even have to include anything in global.conf of the original ASSS releases (just like how http://forums.minegoboom.com/viewtopic.php?t=8304 is not in global.conf by default, even as comments).

I don't see how any of that applies to * vs. ?. Let me outline it for you as clearly as I can:

ASSS handles *messages the same as it handles ?messages. It handles *uptime the same as it handles ?uptime. It handles /*grantitem -i -c -1 TacNuke the same as it handles :Dr Brain:?grantitem -i -c -1 TacNuke.

Adding the ability to force all commands to be * would limit a player's flexibility in choosing how they want to enter their commands. I personally like ? for everything. If I go to your zone, I want to be able to use ? as I do in other zones. I don't care if you like * for everything. It shouldn't effect how I use my commands while a player in your zone. I still don't understand why you'd want to limit how players may enter commands, either.

it's that you'll be trying to get others to use it. I think that would be a great disservice to them. A greater disservice than keeping them on Subgame.
As previously said in this post, different people have different mindsets and ways of organizing their stuff. Some people like to have their workshop tools and wrenchs organized all nice and tidy while some people like to "dump shit into one folder" (quoting off of someone from MGB forums or some SS log). In my family, there is a clear distinction between my family members of who likes to "dump shit into one folder" when it comes to tools. Strangely enough, I am the one who would be organizing all my tools, but my father (sort of) and my 3rd youngest brother are clearly the kinds that work and function better when they have all their "shit dumped into one folder".

I'm not advocating for everyone to switch to ASSS. I've stated many times that if Subgame is sufficient for your needs, you should stick with it.

Also, I've yet to see a "pile mentality" person that wasn't able to find something in a well organized toolbox. That there pretty much defeats your whole argument.

What? Is it the modularity and group definitions of ASSS?

You've stated earlier in this post (or maybe it was one of your others) that you want to hard code many of the the standard staff groups. You've also said you want to limit modularity by making it more like MERVBot.

I disagree. If the community and game is to move forward, you need to move everyone over to a consistent foundation. It is about influence and simply the fact of "people using ASSS" that I think truly matters right now in the progression of the game.

Why does every zone have to run ASSS for the game to move forward? I think any zone that wants to innovate should move to ASSS, but many of the established zones have no need to migrate.

If Continuum is updated with new features, chances are that Subgame2 has to be updated to support those new features in Continuum (if it involves server and client in some way). As a result, using this logic, it is extremely important that people switch to ASSS for the sake of Discretion (until then then or a certain point in time, it is not a major issue -- still has some ways to go). I think it would be very detrimental to the further continuation of Subspace to "biased" and force people to a work environment that does not match, fit, conform or work with their mental organization and mindset.

Discretion probably won't be available for years (NOTE: that's my own personal guess). Also, there's no reason it couldn't be made to work with Subgame. Obviously new features wouldn't work with Subgame, but as I said, that's not a problem for established zones.

I see most ASSS users referring to ASSS commands with ? instead of *. I think that scares them. If I can create a bridge that reassures some worries by using * as a marketing tool, then perhaps, along with all the other things I would plan to do, could bring them over more easily.

I don't understand your meaning. I think you're confused on the "? is the same as * is the same as ?" issue, and are making up problems.

If they don't switch back, they'll probably never know there's a better way to do things (yes, better).
If you are referring to the directory structuring of ASSS, then I will simply say that this is your opinion, you have the right to it, and I also respect both your right and your opinion. However, as I said before, I strongly do not agree for described reasons.

Otherwise, elaborate more on the term better.

There is no denying that a coherent directory structure is easier to maintain for hosts. Symlinks make the issue even more clear cut. You can set up a single set of binaries for your whole system, and upgrade all of your zones at once. Or you can put the log files on a different partition.

It makes it harder for community members offering support if there are multiple ways to configure things. Especially when you consider that none of the expert users will be using your configuration.
Then they have the liberty to not offer any assistance. And this does not necessarily mean that all problems are unsolveable problems because of/as "a result of being so entirely different from the default setup of ASSS".

So you want the most confused users to be the ones that get the least support? How does that not qualify as a disservice?

Dr Brain · November 23, 2009

I'd like to wrap up all of my thoughts in a single post:

ASSS is not for everyone. There is no short term or long term need for people to switch. I believe it gives developing zones an edge, but I've never advocated it for zones with established populations with no desire to innovate.
I do not advocate for people to switch prematurely. A bad experience makes it less likely for them to stay with ASSS, and almost certainly eliminates any possibility of switching at a later date.
I do not hold to the belief that Discretion will make ASSS required for all zones.
ASSS offers many benefits for long term administration. A good deal of these may not be obvious when first switching. The flexible staff groups, and the modularity are the tip of the iceberg. Some of these features are aimed at players (?|command chaining), some are aimed at staffers (?setcm), and others are aimed at hosts (chrooting, and symlinking binaries into /corebin).
It is possible to put config, map and lvz files in the root directory. I do not endorse this, as I feel it will cause significant administration headaches further down the road. Security problems are the most likely.
It is possible to put the remaining files into the root directory with only minimal coding. In most cases the change would involve a single line. Again, I feel this will cause significant headaches down the road.
People setting up servers are used to organization (e.g. Apache). I do not believe that the fact that /conf/global.conf is not /server.ini is putting any prospective users off. And lets face it, if it is, they're probably not going to benefit from ASSS anyway.
Finally, creating a zone is hard work. It's not easy at any step of the way. Balancing settings, creating a map, building a player base, organizing a community, hiring staff, hiring developers, managing developers, finding hosting, finding billing, dealing with players, creating a plan for growth, none of those is easy. If someone is going to crumble at the first step of setting up the server, then chances are they don't have what it takes to build a successful zone. I'm not saying it can't be easier to setup a zone. I'm saying it doesn't matter, since the same people will succeed and fail either way.

**Samapico** · November 23, 2009

All this time and energy could be spent actually using and understanding ASSS, you know...

L.C. · November 23, 2009

If they don't want to see your comments, in your thread, why are they even reading it? It might make sense if you were putting off topic comments in spoiler tags.

Makes sense.

ASSS handles newline characters as well as any other program, including Subgame. More likely, you forgot some settings that continuum needs. Make sure you #include the svs settings (or any other complete settings) somewhere in your arena.conf.

Ahh, hmm...

That's a problem with Notepad, not ASSS. There are hundreds of programs that will swap unix line endings for windows line endings. Notepad++ will do it, for example.

I see, makes sense as well.

No one should see that except admins. It'd be 0 tiles, but presumably continuum doesn't accept that (I've never bothered to check it personally)

I replaced smallmaps.lvl with a 0-byte or 100% empty/tileless version, and ASSS "did not detect a smallmaps.lvl/maps file" so it loaded in the fail-safe. Reason for suggesting the other tile was so that it would give the impression that the map is empty (for those, anyway, that have OCD or something).

If I go to your zone, I want to be able to use ? as I do in other zones. I don't care if you like * for everything. It shouldn't effect how I use my commands while a player in your zone.

Hmm, this sounds reasonable and logical.

Also, I've yet to see a "pile mentality" person that wasn't able to find something in a well organized toolbox. That there pretty much defeats your whole argument

I see what you are saying, but then how does this explain the people who naturally don't organize their toolbox/shed and automatically like it that way? I can see the argument being pulled out to say that those people could be labeled (in parallel logic and illustration) as Subgame users who like to stick to their traditional and comfortable ways -- but in reality, people have the freedom to decide how they organize their toolshed without being required to physically remodel the insides.

We have a toolshed that has a builtin table and everything, but even then there is mostly chaos in the sense of "dump everything into one folder." There is some organization, but for the most part "dump everything into one folder" style.

My 3rd youngest brother has his own table in the house. It is a large wooden table with shelves and drawers, and lots of desk space. His interests are in electrical engineering, and for 99% of the time you would see his desk area looking like a junkyard with piles of trash, wires, motors, metal pieces, etc. Yet he is able to find specific items within this pile of "trash" without really even looking for it -- it seems as if he knows where each object in the pile of trash is.

I have also observed that when his environment is in a clean and organized state, it requires a tremendous amount of effort on his part to find the tools and materials he needs and wants. It is quite the reverse of what you would normally think.

I do know that some people, on the other hand, do function better when they have everything organized. So in summary, my 3rd youngest brother functions better and more efficiently in a "dump everything into one folder" environment than an organized one.

Not sure why I just described these observations.

Why does every zone have to run ASSS for the game to move forward? I think any zone that wants to innovate should move to ASSS, but many of the established zones have no need to migrate.

Take for example the missle weapon and the key item in icons.bm2. Let us say, hypothetically, that PriitK one day released an unexpected patch for Continuum v0.40 out of nowhere that added only these two items/weapons, but did not touch anything in Subgame2.

Subgame2 has to support the key and missle in order for these client-side features to work. From Subgame2 perspective -- what is a missle? How does it function? What are its physics and behavior? And then what about the key? What does it do and how? How is it understood by Subgame2?

To a certain extent (not for all features), you have to keep both the client and server updated on new features so that the server would have compatibility and support for new stuff in the client, and the client would be able to successfully execute such functions/features.

I think you may be seeing what I mean -- if not, let me know to elaborate. ;o

Also, there's no reason it couldn't be made to work with Subgame. Obviously new features wouldn't work with Subgame, but as I said, that's not a problem for established zones.

I see it the same. I think Subgame2 should be supported, at least as an alternative/nostalgic support. And of course, some new features would not work with Subgame2, just as most features from Continuum do not work when you use the Subspace v1.34 client.

The second sentence seems to be going along something similar to my comments on the previous quote.. (Wondering if there is a misunderstanding somewhere, whether it be on my end or yours :X)

I don't understand your meaning. I think you're confused on the "? is the same as * is the same as ?" issue, and are making up problems.

Nevermind!

See comments to 5th quote in this post.

There is no denying that a coherent directory structure is easier to maintain for hosts. Symlinks make the issue even more clear cut. You can set up a single set of binaries for your whole system, and upgrade all of your zones at once.

Using symlinks to locate the core binaries? That is a great thing (unfortunately I cannot employ this on BlueT's server because of how TCAdmin works, and that it is not to my knowledge that there are any gamepanels out there that support symlink methods). On one note, TCAdmin does have feature where you could update outdated dedicated server files for specific games. In ASSS this would work for setup profiles, but would not necessarily work for setups of ASSS where a user has rearranged the directory structure or whatever.

So you want the most confused users to be the ones that get the least support? How does that not qualify as a disservice?

I think this is something that lacks enough information and would be something I would have to observe personally in order for me to generate a reply or opinion. Unfortunately (from my point of view), in saying this, I do not think it will convince you to do anything to make it easily possible for me to do such observations and study.

It is possible to put config, map and lvz files in the root directory. I do not endorse this, as I feel it will cause significant administration headaches further down the road. Security problems are the most likely.

Hmm, I understand, and it sounds reasonable and logical now.

If someone is going to crumble at the first step of setting up the server, then chances are they don't have what it takes to build a successful zone. I'm not saying it can't be easier to setup a zone. I'm saying it doesn't matter, since the same people will succeed and fail either way.

Makes sense, and I agree. Although I remember my early days when I made my first map in SSME back around 1999-2000 and I wanted to just be able to play it and show it to others.

All this time and energy could be spent actually using and understanding ASSS, you know...

Is asking questions to attain answers and a more and better informed opinion necessarily wrong? For some things discussed in this thread, I do not think spending time with ASSS (at least on my end) would necessarily help me to understand certain things that way I do now (as a result of thoughtful and mature discussion).

One of the problems I had in my childhood was that I never asked questions, so I never understood anything, so I ended up doing everything wrong (even if I tried to "learn the anwsers through experience" -- this did not really work well for me). So they groomed me to ask questions and that I shouldn't feel wrong in asking questions if I do not understand something. Of course, this goes with the predefined assumption that teachers will be tolerant of teaching and with the understanding that students asking questions are primarily only trying to better understand something.

I also think some of the things discussed in this thread relate to philosophy and logic in such a way that simply experiencing ASSS would not be able to answer or fill in the blanks. Compared to when I started this thread, I have a much better and more logical layout and understanding of ASSS, its design and structure, etc. Ever have one of those moments where you completely didn't understand something and seemed totally alien and foreign language to you, but then after spending some time with it (and in discussion) all that gobbledlygook is now understand as if a native language?

Every person has a different way of learning, and some people require a combination of different styles of learning and teaching in order to understand them. Discussion, hands on experience, and visuals and illustrations are different ways of learning. In this scenario, I allocated the use of discussion and hands on experience (past and present) to fulfill my questions. I think discussion (in this scenario) helped me more than my hands on experience with ASSS.

I think for most people (or most of you developers) ASSS is easy whereas Subgame2 is difficult because the learning styles and perceptions of things is naturally built into you already in such a way where ASSS just simply works for you and Subgame2 doesn't.

And from my perspective, since declaring and defining early on in the thread, I see this discussion as an honest, truth-seeking, critical thinking venture. Not as some mere childish and immature argument. I hope that Dr Brain understands this and has also been seeing it this way (for I could imagine it might be quite stressful otherwise); I would hate to have caused anyone wrongful stress (as a result of not understanding how I am approaching this discussion).

I do thank you for your participation Dr Brain, as I do understand and see things a lot more clearly and logically (I guess all I needed was the logical wiring/connections in my head to make sense of ASSS).

Edited November 23, 2009 by L.C.

Hakaku · November 23, 2009

Delete smallmap.lvl and then run ASSS.

Ah, well I never really went so far as to use absolutely no map to trigger the 'emergency map' (aka tinymap.lvl). If you want to modify that, then it can be found in src/core/mapnewsdl.c, but map data is gibberish to me:

	if (!data)
{
	/* emergency hardcoded map: */
	byte emergencymap[] =
	{
		0x2a, 0x74, 0x69, 0x6e, 0x79, 0x6d, 0x61, 0x70,
		0x2e, 0x6c, 0x76, 0x6c, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00,
		0x00, 0x78, 0x9c, 0x63, 0x60, 0x60, 0x60, 0x04,
		0x00, 0x00, 0x05, 0x00, 0x02
	};

	lm->LogA(L_WARN, "mapnewsdl", arena, "can't load level file, falling back to tinymap.lvl");
	data = amalloc(sizeof(*data));
	data->checksum = 0x5643ef8a;
	data->uncmplen = 4;
	data->cmplen = sizeof(emergencymap);
	data->cmpmap  = amalloc(sizeof(emergencymap));
	memcpy(data->cmpmap, emergencymap, sizeof(emergencymap));
	astrncpy(data->filename, "tinymap.lvl", sizeof(data->filename));
}

Kilo · November 24, 2009

No.

^ That's one's for Brain.

Hello, I'm Arnk Kilo Dylie, and I am uniquely qualified to comment on this, having engineered a large portion of the transition of Hockey/Football Zone from Subgame to asss (at the time no other major zones were on asss.) To say the least, I'm proud of my work on the zone, so don't be too offended at vanity in my comments. Feel free to be offended at the subtle jabs in my post: offense was intended.

For the most part I agree with Brain. I am a proponent of using ASSS, and if you're serious about starting a new zone, or upgrading, then you should too.

- ASSS is not required at this time. Obviously most major zones do not use it. They do not need to use it.

- However, if you want to make a new zone, consider that most of the things that can be done using Subgame HAVE been done in some flavor or another. What is going to make you stand out? Why start building with old, arcane, and nonextensible software, that is outclassed by other software in terms of total capability? Your zone is an investment: don't skimp. KEEP YOUR OPTIONS OPEN AND KEEP FLEXIBILITY TO A MAXIMUM.

- ASSS is not for everyone. It is not for the weak of heart, it is not for those that don't want to learn, it is not for those who are not committed to long term and ongoing projects, and it is not for people who want to rush things. So basically, it lines up perfectly with the things required to be a good zone leader.

- Discretion probably will not require that people switch from subgame (note: I am not involved with the Discretion project.) At least not initially--it will become pointless to run a zone that only supports features of the old client while other zones get new things that I'm certain most people have not even dreamed of. Doesn't matter if the main game doesn't change, but subarenas could, new ones could pop up, and necessary/amazing client-server interactions only possible with ASSS will make sure that it happens eventually.

- I do not advocate switching prematurely. HZ did that, kind of (long story), and I am no saner for it. However because I was not faint of heart, was not afraid of learning, and was committed to seeing things trough until they were complete, yet not cutting (too many) corners, HZ never had to pull the plug, and it has benefited immensely from the result.

- Every zone in subspace should have a test zone where they slowly piece together how their asss zone would work. It seems bot support in asss is good enough now that there's no excuse to at least get someone setting up a mirror of the subgame zone on asss with the bots, and working out the kinks, and learning the ropes.

- ASSS has done great things in terms of modifying game play in otherwise impossible ways for my zone. Recordings, and HZ's extension on that, instant replays, are very popular, no doubt. They are shiny. But as an administrator I'd point out that the best parts about the upgrade are on the administrative side: running the zone would be beyond unreasonble if it were any less powerful for administrators than it is now. In fact, I am demanding (and plan to develop/help develop) more powerful components for the system, because right now it's not nearly powerful enough. However, I definitely take it all for granted--things that are trivial now are unduly tedious on Subgame (synchronizing settings/arenas is a big one, and definitely requires the set up that's used now.)

- What ASSS needs is more people help developing it to be better, not developing it to dumb it down.

- If you want to move up, go all the way.

Whew that was more patriotic than I was going for

Finally:

If a high-end developer/programmer is doing something out of personal motivation out of personal interest, I have no problem being disagreed or agreed with.

But if someone is seriously doing it for the community, they should consider my points and ponder on some thoughts.

If someone is "seriously" doing it for the community but does not see that it would be worth the amout of effort to target both audiences of ASSS and Subgame2, and correctly designing a cross-compatibility structure that would make maintenaince for Linux and Win32 easy or minimal effort/work, then I consider this to be "out of personal motivation out of personal interest" -- and I am fine with this as long as it is admitted.

The target audiences of ASSS and Subgame2 are the same: people trying to run a zone. No one in that audience does it entirely out of personal interest, not even Dr Brain, the guy who practically brags about not doing anything but what he wants. Yet one can do things "for the community" without doing them your way. How dare you come in and PREEMPTIVELY question the commitment and motivations of the people reading this thread? Those lines are so riddled with fallacy and really discredit your entire post. If you're keeping score that is, good thing we're more generous than that. And hey, I didn't even get into the technical issues. END RANT.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Kilo

L.C. · November 24, 2009

At least not initially--it will become pointless to run a zone that only supports features of the old client while other zones get new things that I'm certain most people have not even dreamed of. Doesn't matter if the main game doesn't change, but subarenas could, new ones could pop up, and necessary/amazing client-server interactions only possible with ASSS will make sure that it happens eventually.

Correct. It is just like the analogy of using the old Subspace v1.34 client instead of Continuum v0.40 to play in current servers (that allow old clients anyway).

- Every zone in subspace should have a test zone where they slowly piece together how their asss zone would work. It seems bot support in asss is good enough now that there's no excuse to at least get someone setting up a mirror of the subgame zone on asss with the bots, and working out the kinks, and learning the ropes.

I agree.

- If you want to move up, go all the way.

I cannot fully agree with this. As Dr Brain said, if Subgame2 does everything you need it to do for you, then it's right for you. If you need it to do more, then ASSS is the way to go.

- ASSS has done great things in terms of modifying game play in otherwise impossible ways for my zone. Recordings, and HZ's extension on that, instant replays, are very popular, no doubt. They are shiny. But as an administrator I'd point out that the best parts about the upgrade are on the administrative side: running the zone would be beyond unreasonble if it were any less powerful for administrators than it is now. In fact, I am demanding (and plan to develop/help develop) more powerful components for the system, because right now it's not nearly powerful enough. However, I definitely take it all for granted--things that are trivial now are unduly tedious on Subgame (synchronizing settings/arenas is a big one, and definitely requires the set up that's used now.)

Sounds like a good testimony to me.

- However, if you want to make a new zone, consider that most of the things that can be done using Subgame HAVE been done in some flavor or another. What is going to make you stand out? Why start building with old, arcane, and nonextensible software, that is outclassed by other software in terms of total capability? Your zone is an investment: don't skimp. KEEP YOUR OPTIONS OPEN AND KEEP FLEXIBILITY TO A MAXIMUM.

While you do certainly make a point, you also have to be aware of the point Dr Brain makes about making a bad first impression of ASSS to people who, as you say, are "faint at heart."

The target audiences of ASSS and Subgame2 are the same: people trying to run a zone.

Cannot fully agree with this, since there are beginners and amateurs out there who simply want to make a map and customize some settings, and show it off to some friends. You are correct in that "no one in that audience does it entirely out of personal interest," but for most part most of them are never serious enough (in the technical sense) to carry through with ASSS.

How dare you come in and PREEMPTIVELY question the commitment and motivations of the people reading this thread?

Hehe, you didn't read the whole thread.

Not sure how to summarize this whole thread, but it is somewhat obvious that you did not read it all. The reason I say this is because (1) you are quoting from the first post, (2) you are completely misunderstanding the attitude of where I am coming from (see the edit of Post #4), and (3) I may be wrong, but it seems as if you are coming from the attitude of that this is all merely an argument to "win or lose" (see first paragraph of Post #23, and see second to last paragraph of Post #38).

My objective is not to make enemies of fellow members within this community or game (nor on the Internet in general). I for one did not stress out a bit throughout the discussion of this thread, as my approach and attitude were perfectly acceptable (though some may easily misunderstand it until reading some parts of this thread carefully).

EDIT: Ultimate conclusion of thread (of my perspective) as of Post #38/39:

Compared to the beginning of this thread, I now have a greatly better and more logical understanding for ASSS and feel very much comfortable in using it. As noted in the beginning of the discussion, I have used and do use ASSS.

Edited November 24, 2009 by L.C.

**Samapico** · November 25, 2009

[...] The only link I see often about ASSS is http://asss.yi.org/asss/ (or something like that), and it's down right now (That's taken from the navbar, by the way... where should it link to instead?)

This never got answered, gotta fix that navbar link

Dr Brain · November 25, 2009

http://asss.minegoboom.com/ is a copy of the asss.yi.org site. It's as good as anything else.

**Samapico** · November 25, 2009

By 'as good as anything else', you mean 'that's where the navbar should link to', or is there something that is actually better than anything else?

Edit: oh well, it seems my FTP doesn't work anymore, can't update it

Russky · November 26, 2009

Sorry if this post is a little different from what you're saying on a technical level because I did not spend enough time fiddling with ASSS. However, I'd like to say that ASSS is good movement in a positive direction for various servers, only problem is finding a project similar to my level to learn. I tried setting up a server this summer with it for halo, and coding some modules was a great experience. I think it can definitely bring something new and exciting to zones. However, certain zones do not want to convert because a lot of re coding has to be redone, and for someone like me that just started it is hard.

PS. is there any way to have a mix game play of turf and flagging?

L.C. · November 26, 2009

PS. is there any way to have a mix game play of turf and flagging?

I think you would have to do some module coding, although I may be wrong.

One of the things about ASSS that still kind of bother me is how in some form of technicality you would have to know what all the modules are in modules.conf (including the ones that aren't even written in that file), all the stuff in the group definition files (including the ones that aren't written in any of them -- just like modules.conf), and all the command equivalences to Subgame2 for insight having a somewhat "basic" overall control over ASSS. There are also, apparently, some things that are not written in files like arena.conf, global.conf, and stuff that can be written into arena settings (ie. server.cfg) -- and I have no idea what any of these are (except for [Net] from my massive AI experiment thread).

Though of course, there is Dr Brain's thread about the necessity for ASSS documents to be maintained, which might partly or fully resolve these few concerns of mine.

But it would be very handy of these concerns I mentioned were informatically available straight-out like the Commands.hlp from minegoboom.com/server or http://www.hlrse.net/subspace/Commands.hlp (which has ASSS commands section but is not complete due to lack of documentation or insight). It might help newbies like me to have a more readily available basic control over ASSS.

Edited November 26, 2009 by L.C.

»D1st0rt · November 27, 2009

PS. is there any way to have a mix game play of turf and flagging?

The flagtime module can be used to help with this.

I would address L.C.'s points specifically but it would just make me way too angry, so I'll just say I echo the sentiments of Dr Brain and Arnk.

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