SG3 Vision

[L.C.]

Important Note (edited in on 11/24 -9 EST):

Please understand that the attitude where I am coming from in starting this dicussion is not one of merely an immature and childish argument where the objective is simply to "win" -- similarly when two children are fighting over a random piece of chalk (amidst a basket full of chalk) simply to "have that piece of chalk".

 

I am coming from a critical thinker's perspective. Critical thinking is an independent, life-long, honest, truth-seeking process. Throughout the entirety of this thread I have not felt stressed or in break of sweat; I have respect for others opinions and do consider and think about them in a logical manner. Do understand that not all people are like you and that some people have different mindsets, mental characteristics and traits, and have a unique frame of reference (that plays a role major role in where, how, and why their opinions come from) -- just like you.

 

So please, do not misinterpret this thread. It is meant to be a mature and intelligent discussion for the purpose of evaluation, gathering information, and concluding with a more and better informed and logical opinion. If you have the desires to rant politically, then you have the freedom to create your own thread for your own purposes and intents.

 

Ultimate conclusion of thread (of my perspective) as of Post #38/39:

 

Compared to the beginning of this thread, I now have a greatly better and more logical understanding for ASSS and feel very much comfortable in using it. As noted in the beginning of the discussion, I have used and do use ASSS.

 

 

 

 

Summary:

Designing and structuring a new or existing server software for Subspace that targets high-end developers & programers, amateurs & low-end developers (includes players), while having easy-to-maintain cross-compatibility.

 

Good marketing image on both the backend and frontend, while having good functionality and flexibility and both ends as well.

 

ASSS' audience is high-end developers & programmers.

 

Subgame2' audience is amateurs, low-end developers, and players/consumers.

 

Not worth designing and structuring a new server software that targets both audiences due to the presently dying and very low population (not enough people from total population who would actually use it to benefit).

 

Important Note:

If a high-end developer/programmer is doing something out of personal motivation out of personal interest, I have no problem being disagreed or agreed with.

 

But if someone is seriously doing it for the community, they should consider my points and ponder on some thoughts.

 

If someone is "seriously" doing it for the community but does not see that it would be worth the amout of effort to target both audiences of ASSS and Subgame2, and correctly designing a cross-compatibility structure that would make maintenaince for Linux and Win32 easy or minimal effort/work, then I consider this to be "out of personal motivation out of personal interest" -- and I am fine with this as long as it is admitted.

 

Do I hate ASSS?

No.

 

Do I hate Subgame2?

No.

 

Do I like both?

Yes, but both have obvious pros and cons. If you read everything below -- I see both as being on two different ends of the spectrum as far as intended target audience goes.

 

 

 

The reason the community is not going ahead because all the programmers in the community are not doing anything for the community, but rather out of personal motivation out of personal interest for personal gain. You see, from the programmer's perspective, it takes too much effort for so little overall gain to really do something worthwhile -- which results in lost "profit" (aka wasted time).

 

Take a look at http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/subgame3.txt. I had a conversation with someone the other day, ranting about the whole ASSS vs Subgame2 topic. What it ended up coming down to was an important condition and factor that I had not realized before: who is to gain?

 

Ideas like subgame3.txt in attempt to reform ASSS and Subgame2 in a way where nobody from ASSS loses any flexibility or features, while everyone in Subgame2 also gains from the extended features of a Subgame2-clone, and all in an easy and workable cross-compatible (Linux and Win32) design -- it can be done and it is possible, and examples of this possibility are proven through games like Half-Life, Metamod/-p (metamod.org), etcetera.

 

The problem is that it takes too much effort to do it from the start to "do it right". With the current Subspace population dying and being as low as it is, what percentage of the whole population would benefit from such a "done right" idea that would require a tremendous amount of initial effort and knowledge (for cross compatibility)? You see, back in 2000 this idea would very well have been worthwhile to actually make, but because of present conditions, it is not.

 

ASSS is superb in its flexibility and modularity, but lacks in the ease and compactness of Subgame. As a result, Subgame targets a much wider audience of the Subspace population, whereas ASSS is limited mainly to people who can program. It would take an experienced Python programmer much less effort and time to teach someone Python who was willing to put in enough effort, than to produce a new server software from ground up that is designed correctly ("done right").

 

 

 

As long as the quality is equal to or better than Continuum/VIE/PriitK, I have no problem with new game clients.

 

 

 

Delivering extended content is about the same for the most part. Developers are eager to do something with AS3 and Discretion.

I think the client idea is great, but I am worried that it will turn out to be just like ASSS: biased to high-end developers and programmers, and leaving the amateurs and players in the dust.

 

It would take more effort to not be biased to either group and support both equally, but this all just goes back to the "personal motivation out of personal interest" thing. In order to support both development groups (or both ends of the development spectrum), they need to start from the beginning and do things right from the beginning. The reason I am being so extreme here is because this is the reality in wanting to support both ends of the spectrum -- the core design and structure of a piece of software (game client, server software, bot software) is critical to who its intended audience is.

 

And if the intended audience is not equal support of both ends of the spectrum, then you, I, and everyone except the targeted audience of that software is screwed.

 

In Subgame2, high-end developers and programmers are screwed because they cannot modify the directory structure of file types (maps, settings, configurations), user groups, program modules, and that it isn't open source. Amateurs, players, and low-end developers are not screwed.

 

In ASSS, amateurs, players, and low-end developers are screwed because ASSS has an ugly and developer-friendly (not user-friendly) marketing image. High-end developers and programmers are not screwed.

 

In subgame3.txt vision, nobody is screwed. We are all a happy family.

 

 

 

When it comes to AS3 and Discretion, it is just about being able to deliver more to the consumer. The consumer's play is extended through this.

If I am understanding your other paragraphs about SG2 and AS3 correctly, I partly do not agree because when VIE was around and they released server and mapping tools -- their target audience was players who wanted to create stuff and run their own zone. This is what makes Subgame2 and mapping relatively easy and user-friendly. ASSS was not made with this in mind at all; in fact it is very possible and likely that the main reason Gremlinar made ASSS was to test his programming abilities and knowledge -- "k proved I can do it. g'bye"

 

The specific features and functions that ASSS developers hold onto so much are important in my eyes as well, but I also see that Subgame2's excellent marketing characteristics is also important (which ASSS does not have, etc). You have used MERVBot before, right? How easy is it? All you have to do is go to a plugins database, download your plugin, extract the DLL to the root directory, and simply load it! Subgame2 should have this kind of modularity as well as other flexibilities such as being able to define ones own directory structure for each kind of find and user groups (which ASSS has).

 

If you haven't read my incomplete subgame3.txt, I encourage you to do so. I must emphasis the "incomplete" part because the file may be lacking in certain uncovered areas and that it is a sort of rough draft.

 

The next question that one might ask is that my subgame3.txt vision appears to be based on Windows (Win32). This is one of those details that is not complete, as I had just mentioned. In order for me to complete this detail, I would have to understand more about how Linux works when it comes to libraries, dependencies, and *.so and *.dynLib files. I might also have to look into and understand some parts of the Half-Life SDK and the source code to a Half-Life server modification/extension called Metamod.

 

Cross-compatibility between Linux and Win32 is important, but I know for a fact that it is possible to design my subgame3.txt vision in such a way that it is painless or minimal effort to maintain both. I am so confident in saying this because Half-Life and Metamod are both written in such way (especially Metamod). In Metamod, you can load server mods like Admin Mod and AMX (both are Metamod mods that give flexibility and power into the hands of server administrators). Mods will come in one of two formats depending on what platform you are running your server on: DLL for Win32, and SO for Linux. The same applies to mods/plugins for Admin Mod and AMX.

 

According to someone, he does not know enough about both platforms to be able to even start thinking of design and structural ideas regarding cross-compatibility, and from his point of view at least would require a tremendous amount of effort to do it all correctly (let me reiterate: it can be done). For a piece of software that is not biased to {[high-end developers and programmers] versus [amateurs and players]} and {[Linux] versus [Windows]}, I have no doubt that it would require quite some knowledge, experience, and perhaps effort to build a subgame3.txt vision (or new server software that treats high-end developers & programmers and amateurs & players equally, and treats Linux and Windows somewhat equally).

 

 

 

PS. Not trying to discourage anyone.

 

 

 

EDIT (11/20 9:36 AM):

Some people here are here because of hobby, socializing, play, community and game progression, or perhaps to test or challenge themselves. Some may have a mixture of those reasons, with some reasons being more of a reason than others. Some reasons may be of greater purpose or importance than others.

 

That is, one may be here for mainly hobby but also for community and game progression -- but because hobby may be a greater or more important reason of being here, they would be inclined to not follow through tasks that require too great of effort (no matter how "right" a task may be).

 

If ones purpose or importance were greatly for community and game progression than anything else, great efforts required to accomplish certain tasks to benefit the community and game would not be a problem.

 

And thus, if one finds a certain task (no matter how "right" it may be) requiring too much effort to benefit such small percentage of the whole population, the reality is that they do not care enough to waste that much of their time on this game (which is a perfectly logical and realistic reason to not do something, as long as it is admitted and not masked by some pseudo-reason).

Edited November 24, 2009 by L.C.

[TurboSlug22]

I think your point about developer motivation is true but only under some circumstances. I wouldnt say its aways true..

 

About As3

 

I know what you mean about it being for high end users, and in its present form, it is. But because this project is open, we can take any criticism of it, generate concensus and evolve the software. We can build dev plugins that allow less skilled users to develop.

 

I think as3 is getting there, but its still very much in its unborn state. It needs time and love at this point and I'm happy to give it both.

 

For now we should focus on alternative marketting strategies I think.. Steam can await. We can tide ourselves over by exploring untapped communities elsewhere on the net while we improve/update our gameplay experience

[Dr Brain]

I disagree with your premise, but even so I have no idea what you hope to accomplish with this thread.

[L.C.]

I do not hope to accomplish anything, only perhaps that some people would come clean and honest (EDIT: or a better psychological and general understanding of things, critical thinking). You have to understand that consumers want things in an on-demand/now fashion, and they want to be able to use a product with minimal learning and maximum comfort involved. If you do not make a product that satisfies this, consumers will purchase a product of the same thing that does a better job at this.

 

VIE targeted your average player/consumer (for whoever wants to create their own map or gameplay style) and did their best to satisfy the criteria necessary to sell and market their product to them.

 

ASSS mainly targets people who want to extend upon the capabilities of Subgame2, and it so happens that the majority of people who end up using ASSS, demographically, are high-end developers and programmers (and without a doubt, I bet most are more "compatible" or comfortable in working with Linux). The targeted audience of this product are people who are at a higher level of development.

 

But that doesn't mean a product has to be that way and have that attitude. If you want something that sells, you have to target the major demographics. If you want maximum coverage, you target as much of the demographics possible. In this scenario, we have the two different intended and targeted audiences of Subgame2 and ASSS.

 

It is possible to make a server software that is cross-compatible and easy to maintain (for the programmer and developer of the server software).

 

And it is also possible to make a server software that targets both ends of the spectrum (average consumers and your high-level developers). Your average consumer should never have to see any code or "high-level" "strange and foreign environment" stuff. They should see a Subgame2 up front. The high-end developers would see that too, but they would have the ability (because of the design and structure of the software) to completely manipulate it to their likings and be able to program modules (in which they could also release like MERVBot plugins for consumers to use ... just like MERVBot).

 

 

 

Now what I am saying here is that despite everything I just said above, the reality is that the Subspace population is so low that it wouldn't be worth implementing or applying my thoughts. In turn (as a result of today's low population) you have even less people of that population who would want to go as far as creating their own maps and customizing gameplay and running their own zone.

 

Back in 1998-2000, there were thousands of concurrent players, meaning you had an enormously huge population base -- which also meant you had a significantly larger sub-population of people who liked the game so much that they wanted to create their own content.. but without being forced into a Linux-styled environment or program that uses a Linux background/doctrine (but this is not to say that there weren't any programmers or people capable of high-level development within this sub-population).

 

If your audience is not big enough in population, then you have nothing to sell because it would not be cost effective to produce it. This is why rural areas of the United States have such poor or no Internet access. There are generally not enough people in rural areas to make it cost effective, plus the fact that they have no interest for it either -- thus coming down to a "sub-population" of people who want the Internet ... which = not enough people to make bringing in decent Internet to rural areas worthwhile and cost effective.

 

 

 

EDIT: Would it be too much to ask, Dr Brain, if I could ask what parts specifically you disagree with and why? If it is a part of my logic that you disagree with, I would like to know more about the what and why (and an explanation of your logic in this too). By no means am I trying to be "personal" or anything -- I just want to evaluate, rationalize, and critically think.

Edited November 24, 2009 by L.C.

[Dr Brain]

Your argument depends on the fact that Subgame is somehow intuitive to players. I strongly disagree. Take a look at the thousands of postings on forums.minegoboom.com and you'll see evidence that it's not easy to setup. Also I disagree that players are the primary audience for ANY server software in ANY game. After that, your whole argument crumbles.

 

Also, your argument seems to suggest you've never used ASSS. Is that the case? You say it'd be easy to change the ASSS frontend without removing functionality or flexibility, but that's simply not true.

 

Furthermore, your whole thing can be summed up as "someone should make this better", without saying how. My response can be summed up too: "Elaborate, or shut up."

[Samapico]

I'd be happy with an ASSS install that is compatible with subgame (mostly) by default, then start from there (with basic modules attached, loaded, taped, screwed, activated, and whatever else they require )

But either way, I'm sure if I took the time to work with ASSS I'd be fine. The only reason why subgame is still alive, is that people are used to it. Also, always being told ASSS doesn't work well on Windows, it complicates things for people who want to start in the dev business. I know a lot of people offer servers for free, but you have to know the right people.

 

I also have to agree with Brain... server software don't need a 'marketing image', they need to work effectively and simply. I don't believe subgame is much easier. People just have more experience with it, and we know how to make its ugly parts work.

 

Maybe this already exists, but some centralized, simple and complete guides/tutorials would be nice. At the moment, you really need to search for these things, they seem scattered here and there. People shouldn't have to ask 'how do I start a zone', there should be big shiny buttons to get a server started, that bring you to the ASSS lair, with downloads, FAQs and tutorials. GetContinuum.com should have one, for example. And our downloads section here could be reorganized a bit to make it a bit clearer; the fact that 2 different things are used as server software is certainly confusing to anyone wanting to get started in the dev business.

If ASSS can run a flag game and a soccer game out of the box, then we can call subgame deprecated, and no newbie dev shall use it anymore.

 

 

Edit: somewhat related question, with ASSS, the esc-c menu can be made to show anything, right? Does ASSS take advantage of this to provide various setting menus with different ?commands?

[L.C.]

Also, your argument seems to suggest you've never used ASSS. Is that the case?

Nope. I have used as and have even recently setup an ASSS development zone for Jackpot SVS. I set it up all by myself. All arenas and settings are ported over, but I am not 100% confident that I have done it correctly.

 

There is 1 frontend, and 2 backends. I will go from the front backward:

 

The frontend is the Continuum window when you are in a zone. You have a chat, you can play in a ship, you have the radar and inventory, the player box, and you can use ? and * commands. To illustrate in parallel, it is "the website," such as http://www.hlrse.net/. You can go there and see and browse the website.

 

Followed by the frontend is the backend (level 1). To illustrate in parallel, it is practically the same thing as cPanel for webservers (http://www.hlrse.net/cpanel - username - password) or the Admin Dashboard for Wordpress. It is a dashboard of on and off switches and buttons. It is browsing the root directory of a Subgame2 installation and modifying the INI, TXT, LVL, and CFG files; it is browsing through ASSS directory structure and modifying CONF, LVL, TXT files.

 

Followed by the backend (level 1) is the backend (level 2). To illustrate in parallel, it is the very scripts that make "backend (level 1)" possible. Behind what you see at http://www.hlrse.net/cpanel is merely just a collection of shell/python/etc scripts. It is the actual programming and code. In the dashboard of on and off switches and buttons, behind that is the actual circuitry, chips, gears and oil.

 

And by this alone I do show the parallel between ASSS and Subgame2 (except that only VIE/PriitK has access to "backend (level 2)" for Subgame2). However, when I operate ASSS by its frontend in commands and its backend (level 1), I feel that "backend (level 2)" is mixed and battered throughout the entire thing, and as if the "foreign and strange" Linux is being impressed upon me.

 

I have used Linux and I do depend on it daily. I do often use SSH and the likes. (So now you can't say I haven't or don't use it or have no experience or anything with it.)

 

 

 

You say it'd be easy to change the ASSS frontend without removing functionality or flexibility, but that's simply not true.

Nowhere did I say it would be easy. Keywords: effort But I did say it is possible to do it.

 

 

 

"Elaborate, or shut up."

Haven't I already? In subgame3.txt I attempt to elaborate on some structural and design elements in how a few things could be done without removing them (as a feature or flexibility). Due to my limited knowledge with how programming in the Linux world works, I can only go so far as to devise and think of design and structural ideas.

 

I did point out metamod.org (Metamod for Half-Life) for the purpose of giving a living example of "how it is possible" for cross-compatibility. It is material that can be studied to see "how they managed to do it right" as far as cross-compatibility. The Half-Life SDK and Metamod source code (as well as to Metamod mods like Admin Mod, AMX, AMXX, etc) are excellent study materials and examples, and I bet there are others unrelated to Half-Life out there too.

 

If there is something you would like me to elaborate on, specifics would help.

 

 

 

I'd be happy with an ASSS install that is compatible with subgame (mostly) by default, then start from there (with basic modules attached, loaded, taped, screwed, activated, and whatever else they require )

Quoted for truth. It would be nice where the defaults of ASSS were as such where I could simply plop in all my CFG, LVL, and TXT files, and make only a few modifications to some core INI/CONF for Billing, Directory, Misc, and Arena (directly plopping in server.ini might not work well ).

 

 

 

Take a look at the thousands of postings on forums.minegoboom.com and you'll see evidence that it's not easy to setup.

Exactly how long have both ASSS and Subgame been around? And exactly how or what kind of population where they exposed to since their births?

 

 

 

Also I disagree that players are the primary audience for ANY server software in ANY game.

Please elaborate why.

 

 

 

Maybe this already exists, but some centralized, simple and complete guides/tutorials would be nice. At the moment, you really need to search for these things, they seem scattered here and there. People shouldn't have to ask 'how do I start a zone', there should be big shiny buttons to get a server started, that bring you to the ASSS lair, with downloads, FAQs and tutorials.

Kind of like minegoboom.com/servers?

 

 

 

People shouldn't have to ask 'how do I start a zone', there should be big shiny buttons to get a server started, that bring you to the ASSS lair, with downloads, FAQs and tutorials.

Dr Brain, do you agree with this? (Just trying to understand some details, that's all.)

 

 

 

with ASSS, the esc-c menu can be made to show anything, right?

Yes.

 

 

 

Idea:

?getsettings - ESC+C menu shows specified category, otherwise shows everything

Edited November 24, 2009 by L.C.

[Samapico]

This might sound dumb but... where is this subgame3.txt?

 

Edit: ok... it was in a spoiler tag, with an invalid link to "http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/subgame3.txt."

 

http://www.hlrse.net/Qwerty/subgame3.txt

 

Your spoiler tags make it hard to quote stuff lol

 

Kind of like minegoboom.com/servers?

yeah, but with ASSS. As I said, maybe it exists, I haven't searched very far for it, but there should be one valid, complete, and accessible source for this info, and it should be linked to. If others want to derive other sites from it for particular purposes, fine, but this one source should still be 'the one'. minegoboom.com/server is the perfect example, whenever someone wanted to start a server, back in the day, you'd just give them that link, and they ended up with a server up and running in no time. That's what I did anyway. And 99.9% of the questions people ask about subgame ARE covered by the relatively short FAQ and other pages. There should be the same thing for ASSS imo. The only link I see often about ASSS is http://asss.yi.org/asss/ (or something like that), and it's down right now (That's taken from the navbar, by the way... where should it link to instead?)

[Hakaku]

This just in:

 

---------------

Newsflash! ASSS can run bots! You can just paste your entire .cfg into your arena file! or even link it! or even split it into ten thousand files! You can already sort ?getsettings by categories aka keywords! You can copy pasta all your staff into the staff file! You can chuck all your lvl and lvz files into your map folder! So difficult! *omgwtfbbq fan girl scream and faint*

---------------

[Hakaku]

Dare to click for Hak's opinionated rambling.

 

 

 

LC,

 

I understand that fundamentally you want to establish some sort of balance between Subgame and ASSS, and that you have nothing but the best interest in all of it. But I'm really saddened that you keep biasing yourself on your own wacked out preconceived notions. Seriously, give ASSS a spin for more than 2 seconds, otherwise you should avoid talking about things you don't even take the time to try and learn. Most of your proposals already seem redundant with what currently exists. Instead of wasting who knows how long you take to write these posts, you could easily put that effort into double clicking the asss.bat file. Le sigh.

 

You have to get rid of the idea that being a developer is required. ASSS focuses on whoever wants to use it, be it a newbie, someone coming from Subgame, someone with knowledge of programming, or other. I for one started off knowing just the bare minimum of Subgame, then decided to give ASSS a spin. It's different, certainly. But that's just the structure of how things are laid out. After using this structure, I'd have to admit that it's a lot cleaner and more organised than Subgame. In-game itself, everything feels the same, except for the spooky switch of *cmd to ?cmd, though Subgame compatibility makes the switch for any Subgame staff much much easier.

 

ASSS out of the box can be a challenge, but so was Subgame. If you're looking for something pretty with sparkles and magic, give Smong's NAAP a shot, it makes setting ASSS up easier.

 

On that note, keep remembering that I never even knew how to code before I touched ASSS. Yet, I could run a zone using the basics of what was at my predisposition perfectly fine. When I run into a problem, I ask, simple as that. I even advocated that Devastation switch to ASSS before I even knew how to compile a single module: I already knew that bots were going the way of the dinosaurs, and it's not just the lack of bot hosts or bot help that were turn offs, it was also that Devastation has probably been the only zone to actually use Mervbot 48b. The way I saw it, making the switch to server-side modules was the only viable option to ensure that the gameplay could be continuously maintained, developed and built upon by other players. I also saw it as the first step towards enabling a new client to seep into SubSpace.

 

Unlike you though, I forced myself to learn. Purge can vouch for my uber code suckage at first. You always always always make the excuse that you have no time to learn. Mon oeil! I'm in university as a full time student, work at the same time, have a million papers due, have a life to live, etc. The difference? Being so busy allows me to know how to organize my time adequately without having to worry about everything. I didn't learn to design a module in five seconds, but I took into consideration how I learn and what my objectives were, in order to port Devastation to ASSS. Technically it's still a work in progress, had some bumps along the way, and i still don't understand C much, but it's enough for me to write modules and run the zone perfectly fine and stably.

 

Seriously, give this can-do attitude a try, it's worth it.

 

 

[CRe]

Hakaku hit the nail right there.

[L.C.]

Seriously, give ASSS a spin for more than 2 seconds, otherwise you should avoid talking about things you don't even take the time to try and learn. Most of your proposals already seem redundant with what currently exists. Instead of wasting who knows how long you take to write these posts, you could easily put that effort into double clicking the asss.bat file. Le sigh.

As I have said before, I do use ASSS and have some time ago completely setup an ASSS development zone for Jackpot SVS. It was easy to configure but that doesn't mean I become a fanboy on the spot. Although it was easy to configure, I think the process of configuring and setting up could be much simpler and done a better way.

 

EDIT: Or perhaps the main configuration file could be cleaned up and polished. Spacing is inconsistent and [Category]'s should follow the same order as in server.ini from Subgame2. The user group files took some additional brief thinking to figure out (and I think the whole group definitions thing could be done better -- refer to subgame3.txt). Would also be nice if I could just copy and paste from Subgame2.

 

 

 

In-game itself, everything feels the same, except for the spooky switch of *cmd to ?cmd, though Subgame compatibility makes the switch for any Subgame staff much much easier.

I would still prefer the traditional *cmd for zone related commands. The ? and * characters are excellent characters to use to separate and categorize different sectors.

 

 

 

If you're looking for something pretty with sparkles and magic, give Smong's NAAP a shot, it makes setting ASSS up easier.

Link?

 

 

 

Seriously, give this can-do attitude a try, it's worth it.

Already working on learning Python. And as you say, it is simply to the best interest in all of establishing a balance between Subgame and ASSS. My personal interest is in the satisfaction and benefit of all consumers, both developer and player.

 

 

 

I know what you mean about it being for high end users, and in its present form, it is. But because this project is open, we can take any criticism of it, generate concensus and evolve the software. We can build dev plugins that allow less skilled users to develop.

 

I think as3 is getting there, but its still very much in its unborn state. It needs time and love at this point and I'm happy to give it both.

I have a slight change of opinion on this now: I do not think a server software from complete ground-up scratch is necessary, and I think ASSS is fine to start with. I think it does however (as mentioned before) need some heavy duty serious polishing on the frontend and "backend (level 1)".

 

One of the things I immediately like about it is the user groups thing -- I like this feature. However, I think this is one spot that needs some makeover. (Ideas already detailed in subgame3.txt.)

 

As mentioned before, I think the default ASSS package should resemble Subgame2. And then from there a person has the ability to completely manipulate and mold the directory structure (configured from a single file) to their likings.

 

 

 

 

Another issue is biased support to Linux ASSS and leaving out Win32 support. I may be wrong in saying this though, and I would have no doubt that it would be difficult to maintain both versions. Would someone be able to give some insight on Win32 AS3 vs Linux AS3? I don't think any server admin should have to go as far as installing a virtual machine on their Windows server (if they do not have reach to a Linux server).

 

Thank you for contributing to this discussion Dr Brain, Hakaku, Samapico, and Turbo!

 

 

 

EDIT (11/20 3:33 PM):

You can just paste your entire .cfg into your arena file! or even link it! or even split it into ten thousand files!

Can I just copy and paste my *.cfg files into one place and simply be done with it?

 

 

 

You can already sort ?getsettings by categories aka keywords!

So ?getsettings already exists?

 

 

 

You can copy pasta all your staff into the staff file!

I have a clue of how to do this, but please explain (curiousity).

 

 

 

You can chuck all your lvl and lvz files into your map folder! So difficult! *omgwtfbbq fan girl scream and faint*

Copy and paste straight into Maps folder?

 

One part about this that does not make sense is how the LVZ and LVL go together, but arena settings do not. To keep the logic consistent, shouldn't LVZ be in its own folder?

 

Anyway, I would really like for the ability to manipulate the entire directory structure of ASSS to liking from a single configuration file.

Edited November 24, 2009 by L.C.

[Samapico]

To keep the logic consistent, shouldn't LVZ be in its own folder?

I'm guessing you could put them in their own folder if you want to

[Hakaku]

 

 

I would still prefer the traditional *cmd for zone related commands. The ? and * characters are excellent characters to use to separate and categorize different sectors.

It's technically doable, and subgame compatibility does force a distinction between the two types of commands by using a different callback. Personally I don't really care, for Devastation I even added ! as an alternative since it was such a common command that people kept using without realising there's not bot.

 

Link?

Maybe I overemphasized it a little, but it's a handy tool.

http://www.toktok.sscentral.com/ss-other.html

 

Can I just copy and paste my *.cfg files into one place and simply be done with it?

Yes and no. Personally I recommend just individually copying each file and pasting it into the arena's arena.conf file. You'll end up having to link the .cfg or .conf file from the arena.conf file in the end anyway, but yeah, you can put them wherever you like as long as you properly reference the file.

 

So ?getsettings already exists?

At the moment I can't verify, but I assume ?getsettings is an exact copy of ?quickfix. If not, then use ?quickfix instead.

 

I have a clue of how to do this, but please explain (curiousity).

K, well I lied on this, it's not quite that straightforward. But, it's not complicated adding staff either. In the staff.conf file you basically add "username = position" (e.g. Hakaku = sysop) under the appropriate [section] (section = either global, or arena name).

 

You can also add staff via some command in-game, but I don't really fancy this method much. I think it's ?setgroup or something.

 

One part about this that does not make sense is how the LVZ and LVL go together, but arena settings do not. To keep the logic consistent, shouldn't LVZ be in its own folder?

It's a good point, but maps are generally kept separate because they can be reused across different arenas, same goes for lvz. Maps and lvz can have complicated names making it hard to remember where you put them, whereas arena settings are static and you can always obtain the relevant information via the arena.conf file.

 

That's not to say you can't put them under the arena's folder, that's perfectly fine as well. You can do the reverse and have all your settings in a single place too, but just don't forget to link them through the arena.conf.

 

[Dr Brain]

First off, I'm not really sure why people think that *commands don't work on ASSS. I can only assume they've never tried it. The server (by default) doesn't distinguish between ?abc and *abc. They'll both work for any command.

 

Anyway, I looked through your txt file (the link that Samapico corrected...), and a lot of that stuff already exists.

• You can split up arena files (they are by default, even).
  
• You can specify power groups as you please, and assign commands to each.
  
• You can even set player's groups per arena.
  

This only furthers my feeling that you've never used ASSS.

 

Modules would be written in C#/C++/language used to write MERVBot plugins, and compiled into a *.dll. They have the same flexibility as do MERVBot plugins. If a module does not work or has critical problems, it is simply unloaded/not loaded at all and will not threaten the integrity or stability of the server (just like in MERVBot)

 

Have fun making that work. Especially with C/C++. Oh, so you know, MERVBot plugins have far less flexibility than ASSS modules. Bots are not like zones. Making something "like mervbot" would be a horrendous design choice.

 

Bottom line: I have limited development time, and I have zero interest in making ASSS organized like Subgame. ASSS is a lot easier to administrate because of its hierarchical organization. I also don't see much of a market for zones switching from ASSS to Subgame. The established zones aren't much for innovating, and are happy with what they have. Also, the small zones will have to overcome much larger hurdles than getting the server operating.

 

That said, there's no reason a developer couldn't spend their time on this. I'm not going to be that guy, though.

[L.C.]

This only furthers my feeling that you've never used ASSS.

I have, you might just have to take my word on it (or not).

 

 

 

Have fun making that work. Especially with C/C++.

I was just pulling standard/common languages out of my head.

 

 

 

MERVBot plugins have far less flexibility than ASSS modules.

I was using MERVBot's modularity from the perspective of "backend (level 1)". Download plugin, extract plugin, load plugin, enjoy (overall steps taken).

 

 

 

Bots are not like zones. Making something "like mervbot" would be a horrendous design choice.

Yes, you are correct. Again, I was only using MERVBot as an example to illustrate or describe a specific element's way of usage.

 

 

 

I have limited development time, and I have zero interest in making ASSS organized like Subgame. ASSS is a lot easier to administrate because of its hierarchical organization.

What about giving the flexibility of manipulating the entire directory structure via a single configuration file? Well, as you say, you have limited development time (which I think goes back to "out of personal motivation out of personal interest," perhaps). I understand, not a problem at all.

 

 

 

That said, there's no reason a developer couldn't spend their time on this. I'm not going to be that guy, though.

Understandable.

 

 

 

Again, thank you guys for your contributions to this discussion. Very much appreciated.

 

On a side note, does anyone have any clue why I can't get ASSS to connect to Isometry? I have billing_ssc enabled (and the other disabled), and it worked only ONCE in a series of restarts, but has not worked since it was restarted. I have tried the other billing_, but that does not work either. I am pretty sure I configured the main configuration file correctly too (I cannot see any errors there).

 

And is there any news or information regarding Win32 ASSS vs Linux ASSS? How about 1.5.0?

Edited November 24, 2009 by L.C.

[JoWie]

Idea:

?getsettings - ESC+C menu shows specified category, otherwise shows everything

Help on '?getsettings':
 Module: quickfix
 Targets: none
 Args: <limiting text>
 Lets you quickly change arena settings. This will display some list of
 settings with their current values and allow you to change them. The
 argument to this command can be used to limit the list of settings
 displayed. (With no arguments, equivalent to ?getsettings in subgame.)

Edited November 20, 2009 by JoWie

[JoWie]

I do not understand why ASSS would be so much harder to set up then subgame. When I started out I had a much harder time setting up subgame then I had with ASSS.

 

My only annoyance with the default directory structure in ASSS is that it is very easy to get conflicts between subarenas lvl/lvz files.

[TurboSlug22]

 

I also don't see much of a market for zones switching from ASSS to Subgame. The established zones aren't much for innovating, and are happy with what they have.

 

That said, there's no reason a developer couldn't spend their time on this. I'm not going to be that guy, though.

 

Speaking as the chief coordinator of the DSB dev team, I can tell you that we (the dev team) have every desire to migrate to ASSS.... but only when it offers us nothing to lose - That time may never come but until then we're ok with helping ASSS along until it realizes that potential. We have the resources available to devote.

 

Additionally, we have every desire to innovate; we see our conservative history as an advantage to converting to ASSS - we have less content to make work under ASSS

 

Unfortunately ASSS is not a viable option for our zone at present - so we cannot adopt it until it is ready. In that regard, our desire to adopt ASSS has motivated us to devote resources to ASSS development to make it viable.

 

And we strongly disagree about your view that ASSS is for server admins only. We all started as players in SS, many of us didnt know programming until we became devs and wanted to build our own arenas... Having development tools aimed at the regular player will ensure we can have all kinds of creative content coming to our zones. Why limit the creativity?

 

In that regard:

 

We are buliding a Development kit for ASSS. A program that builds modules for ASSS. It sniffs out all variables in the game, allows you to select a variable condition and then assign an outcome to a target.

 

So, you could select "Speed" From a list of variables in a menu - and then select a qty for it "3000" And then in a new menu you could select actions - there would be every possible action that a regular bot could preform - say... "engine shutdown" and then you would choose a target.

 

So if a player exceeded 3000 speed they would get engine shutdown on them... I dunno why you'd want that result but the point is, with that software application you can build events without any programming experience.

 

We've got a couple guys building that software app right now. The task is to build a software application that builds all the modules necessary to host a kings game. If it can do that, we're pretty good for a beta version.

 

EDIT: This idea is under fire - the project is very large - is there no elegant way to achieve this?

Edited November 22, 2009 by TurboSlug22

[Dr Brain]

A group of people, with no experience in ASSS, building a complex scripting language is one of the worst proposals I've heard. If you need a specific module, there are plenty of people in the community that would be willing to write something for a large zone. If you don't need a specific module, why are you wasting your time writing a module builder, when you don't even know what you want it to build?

 

You didn't say what ASSS was lacking for DSB.

 

You'll note that I also said Subgame was aimed at server admins, and not regular players. ASSS is no different.

[JoWie]

In my opinion, time is better spent helping improve the python bindings and/or simplifying the way python modules are coded. To be honest I do not know a lot about the current state of python in asss because I never use it.

[»jabjabjab]

bleh pointless arguing. I think if half the community as subgame and half as3, I think it's good right there.

[L.C.]

bleh pointless arguing. I think if half the community as subgame and half as3, I think it's good right there.

I would say that this thread is more so targeted at debate and mature, intelligent conversation than an argument, at least by what I define an argument. I think an argument is more like two young kids arguing over a random piece of chalk simply just so that they could "win" or "have it." Debate on the other hand is a serious and honest session of critical thinking, where each independent and private persons are seeking truth through discussion. Critical thinking is a truth-seeking process that is independent and not necessarily reliant on majority belief.

 

Although I like competition and that competition is not necessarily a bad thing, sometimes it can (instead of being something that moves a community, game, or product forward) be a hindrance and negative thorn. I like both Subgame2 and ASSS, and think that Subgame2 is more "complete" than ASSS, and obviously both have their advantages and disadvantages. Ideally though, Subgame2 could be viewed as "100%" in that it fulfills every feature and corner in Subspace' engine, and ASSS as an attempt to do "101%+" (meets and exceeds Subgame2). Of course, in the current state that ASSS is in, I would say it is fair to claim that ASSS does need some polishing.

 

Likewise, Discretion as is isn't necessarily bad, but would need some polishing to even begin to meet and/or exceed Continuum's quality -- even without 100% fulfillment of features and capabilities. However, if Subgame2 meets all the needs and criteria of a zone and if they can easily compensate for a few features with a bot, then I do not see a reason for them to move to ASSS.

 

To say it simply, I agree that ASSS is currently not quite in the best shape to be ready for problematically-free conversation of all Subgame2 users. Just like Discretion and Continuum.

Edited November 23, 2009 by L.C.

[Dr Brain]

LC, using your logic Subgame is not complete, since ASSS users cannot easily switch to it.

[L.C.]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, or how.