Venus Project

[Chambahs]

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

 

Ever hear of it? I heard of it while watching Zeitgeist 2, it sounds like an awesome theory. No work, unlimited resources, no currency, a great ecosystem, and most of this leading to no crime.

 

It does sound too good to be true, but it also sounds like something amazing that I would like to see happen, even though it wouldnt be in our lifetimes.

 

What do you think? Would you enjoy not working and having no currency, and have time to live and enjoy life without the stresses? Or do you think work and currency gives people a certain drive to do things?

 

Discuss

[»Lynx]

This is Socialism, and Socialism doesn't work.

[General Shadow]

I agree with Lynx, however, if it could be changed to where it wasnt socialism...

[Hakaku]

I find it difficult to grasp the idea of their goal. The artwork is nice and all, perhaps a tad too 80s style, but I don't get the sentiment that it's realistically adapted to our current world. Somehow somewhere along the line we're suppose to destroy everything that currently exists in order to revolutionize our system politically, scientifically, educationally, technologically, geographically, etc. Then somehow magically everything will be built with top notch innovations that will provide for a "socialist" society where everyone is equal, no one will have to work (as much), we won't need currency, there won't be religions, cultural divisions, or different languages, and our technologically advanced robots will sustain the entire decentralized system from us against all the elements, against pollution, against ourselves and crime, and so on.

 

It all basically stipulates we (i.e. the entire Earth) grow up with the same education, language, values, traditions, and resources; and that we live in the same place, magically protected from all possible disasters. It kind of reminds me of East Asia's terrible attempts to modernize and/or socialize themselves by displacing, destroying, and assimilating everything that doesn't conform to their visions.

 

Their fundamental idea and artwork are nice, but their goal seems too disconnected from reality in my opinion.

[»Lynx]

If it could be changed to something that isn't Socialism it wouldn't be what it is, or anything like how they portrayed it. Socialism is fail, it has some good qualities (for example I am a fan of free healthcare and crucial services) but a complete socialist way of life only equates to revolution, dictatorship and oppression. The only good thing about Socialism is that it makes for good jokes...

 

-L

[NBVegita]

Lol.

 

The Venus project is a joke.

 

First their idea is more like the ideal of communism than socialism. No class system, no money, everyone has what their neighbor has.

 

Second, the concept of having no government is ludicrous. In your perfect "Utopia" what are you going to do when someone kills another person? What are you going to do when your neighbor decides that he isn't happy having as much as you, so he takes what's yours? I mean I could go on for hours.

 

I could literally keep going and going on this. I don't realistically understand how anyone can view this and think it's even remotely realistic. You would be attempting to remove all humanity from humans.

[Samapico]

I thought it had to do with colonizing Venus and gathering its resources or something. This would be more realistic, actually

[General Shadow]

Good point, it doesnt really make sense to call it the venus project when we are on Earth!

[Synister]

It's a good idea.. in a way just the whole no government would never work.. just like NB said. You need a stable government. Idk about money since money is the source of greed and corruption.

 

Still wouldn't you love to live in a time like their "future" looks like? It's like something out of starwars or Irobot. Honestly I would love to live in a world like that. All futuristic and stuff.

[NBVegita]

The problem with that "future" is that it removes all humanity from humans. It reminds me of a bad sci-fi movie where everyone is brainwashed to feel peace and love, meanwhile there are a few people who are completely controlling everything for their selfish gain.

 

Humans were never meant to live the way they're implying would be Utopian.

[Chambahs]

So, if you were living at total peace and happiness, you would still care that there are a "few" people controlling everything for their selfish gain?

 

Lol, I wouldnt give a fuck if im at -total- peace and happiness. Why would you care? As long as it doesnt effect your life, so what?

 

The main part of the venus project that im most interested in, is the whole no currency, and everything being available for everyone. That and the no work theory.

 

Humans were never meant to live the way they're implying would be Utopian.

 

So it was inevitable that we were supposed to increase technology, get jobs, care more about money than your fellow man, be away from family, have constant stress over currency and economy issues, do whatever it is that someone tells you to do, and have our lives be consumed by unhappiness more than happiness?

 

Wow, if you think so, you've got a really fucked up way of thinking.

[Samapico]

Problem with "everything being available to everyone" is that people always want more. They won't just use what they need, that's how humans are.

Also, how would education work? If there are no jobs, there is no reason to learn anything, just sit there and do whatever you want, right? Who will maintain the robots and structures?

And if you make robots to make/repair the other robots, you still need to maintain these robots

[rootbear75]

The problem with that "future" is that it removes all humanity from humans. It reminds me of a bad sci-fi movie where everyone is brainwashed to feel peace and love, meanwhile there are a few people who are completely controlling everything for their selfish gain.

 

Humans were never meant to live the way they're implying would be Utopian.

ahem

 

 

does no one else see the resemblance to 1984?

[Bak]

I like their points about how debt seems to generate money. Consider this, there is currently 100 trillion dollars in existence. If I give you a loan with interest for 30 years, after those 30 years there is 100.0001 trillion dollars in existence because you have to pay me back the capital, plus the interest. Doesn't that seem absurd? Shouldn't money be a zero-sum system? This is why a gold standard couldn't work, we would all owe each other more gold than exists.

 

It's true that some things like basic foods may be able to be free and not managed by money. However, scarcity still exists and that's what money is needed for. For example, I want to go to space, but resource-wise society can't let everyone who wants to go to space do it. There is always scarcity at the cutting-edge of technology, where they are suggesting things should be built.

[Chambahs]

Off topic: Bak, I saw a documentary that explains the whole USA in debt and the interest and loaning debacle, Zeitgeist 2. Watch it, boggles your mind.

[Samapico]

Zeitgeist is hardly a documentary

[»Lynx]

The majority of Zeitgeist has been ripped apart as out of context quotes and what if situations, although what they claim about the national debt, the control of inflation and the monetary system no longer being redeemable in gold is true... Although it's not half as bad as they claim. By the way, all the information about secret meetings, the forceful crash of banks ... That's all bullshit. Markets crash, it's a simple fact. Even World of Warcraft and Eve Online markets have unpredictable behaviors that cause micro-crashes.

 

Anyway, back onto the Venus project. The simple fact is power corrupts. If you've got a whole system which is controlled by a nonelective body all you get is a stagnation of forward thinking, oppression, censorship and a major lack of freedom. You simply can't control people without imprisoning them, all you can do is let them be free, and try to get them to follow rules to keep the peace as much as possible. That's the aim of democracy, we may not quite have it yet although I believe that with the constant evolution of our law system, with the evolution of technology and the free market we'll soon be a lot happier than we could ever be in any system without money, crime or much anything else at all for that matter.

 

If you want the Venus project, then go to North Korea.

 

-L

[NBVegita]

So, if you were living at total peace and happiness, you would still care that there are a "few" people controlling everything for their selfish gain?

 

First, knowing that someone is controlling everyone and everything for a selfish gain would impede on my total peace and happiness.

 

Second it is physically impossible to create a system in which everyone will be happy and peaceful. As stated in other posts, you may be happy driving a prius, mean while I want a viper. How does that system work? You may have a larger appetite than me, so you want more food to be happy, I don't, how does that work? Doing drugs may make you happy, just knowing that people are using them upsets me, what then? I mean honestly I could go on for literally days on that subject. It's nearly impossible to get a small control group of people, say 100, to be completely happy and at peace, let alone 7 billion people.

 

The main part of the venus project that im most interested in, is the whole no currency, and everything being available for everyone. That and the no work theory.

 

Again as posted above, this is physically impossible. Great you don't have to work. Hey no one does, well someone, somewhere has to work to keep something running somewhere. And even if we invented AI, someone needs to have some control over things out of the realm of logic. Second, with no currency, as a stated above, you can't regulate resources. If everyone lived in 5000 sqft mansions and drove the most expensive cars to make and had their own private jets, ect. ect. you would simply run out of resources. Again I really could go on for days with this.

 

So it was inevitable that we were supposed to increase technology, get jobs, care more about money than your fellow man, be away from family, have constant stress over currency and economy issues, do whatever it is that someone tells you to do, and have our lives be consumed by unhappiness more than happiness?

 

Wow, if you think so, you've got a really fucked up way of thinking.

 

First those are very dramatic perceptions. Look at what we have today vs even 500 years ago. The food you eat today, hell the fact that you can have a balanced meal of meat, vegetables, potatoes and the such, simply remarkable. The fact that every time you get a sniffle you don't have to worry if you might be killed because there really is no medical technology to speak of (by today's standards), is simply remarkable. The fact that you don't need to worry about being particularly skilled in a trade and you can still make a good living, simply remarkable.

 

Going through your list:

 

Increase technology: Well of course we're going to increase technology. Technology makes things more efficient. Since the invention of the earliest tools, we have constantly been striving for things to assist us to complete tasks we otherwise would not and to become more efficient.

 

Get jobs: With out a job, be it flipping burgers at McDonalds or hunting for food, WE WOULD NOT SURVIVE. Plain and simple from the dawn of time until the end of time we will have jobs. Be it keeping your power on, or bringing water to your tribe, you will always have a job.

 

Care more about money: Well first there has always been currency. It may not have been dollar bills and coins, but humans have been bartering since the beginning of time. Of course we always want more because on a primal level, the more you have, the longer you can survive. The same is true today. If I have $500,000 just sitting in a bank account and you have $50. If we both lose our jobs simultaneously, who is going to last longer? Same thing since the beginning of time, the more currency you have, the more you can accomplish and the "safer" you are. As for the part about caring about your currency more than fellow man, it depends on the man, and depends on the currency. Simply put, short of some immediate family, humans have that whole pesky survival instinct. Again if my primary concern is my and my wife and I need currency to assure our lives, then yes that currency means more to me than you do. Now when it comes to greed, again that is something ingrained in humans, notice how jealous you'd get if another guy slept with your girl/wife?

 

Away from family: Where is it written that simply because you're tied to someone by blood, you must stay with them? Since the dawn of time, people have had circumstances that have allowed them to simply stay with there family, right through today. But as we evolved, we realized to attain prosperity (usually defined with an abundance of currency) you sometimes needed to venture to a new area, with our without your family. This has been going on for ages.

 

Stress: We have always had stress over currency and economy. At least for a majority of people today, that stress is simply concerning a nest egg and convenience, not living or dying. If a farmers crop failed 200 years ago, it was likely he and his family would plain starve. If you go way back, when currency may simply have been food and water, your very survival was based on being able to get that currency. If anything I think most of our stress today is a manufactured stress concerning cur/eco, and nothing compared to the actual stress of generations past.

 

Do what people tell you: There always have been and always will be someone governing you in some way. It's how we manage most everything. Even the earliest tribes had leaders and laws. Plain and simple. As there has always been, we all have degrees of freedom, but unfortunately, even in your famed Venus project, there will always be rules and authorities regulating you, usually based on the constructs of society at that time.

 

Unhappy: That is a completely relative argument. Most people are unhappy today because they are consumed with self pity. If people are unhappy its because they've learned to be unhappy. Unfortunately that is a key of our society: Misery. When was the last time you turned on the news and it wasn't doom and gloom? When was the last time you read the entire news paper and actually felt genuinely happy when you were done? In fact, when was the last time you let yourself feel genuinely happy? I'll stop here because this could be its own topic.

 

All of this is human nature. Even if you created this "Venus project", you could eliminate money as a currency but there will always be currency. For example, I have a viper. Well they can't produce them fast enough for you to have one. You have a boat, which at this time I cannot get either. Well I want a boat more than my viper and vice versa. We trade. Effectively we've created currency. Eventually that currency will gain weight, maybe having a plane is no big deal, but getting a hot tub is hard?

 

I hadn't planned on elaborating this much, but I mean really this is like trying to create the Garden of Eden for 7 billion people and hoping against everything in human nature that not a single one of them will bite the apple.

Edited October 10, 2009 by NBVegita

[Chambahs]

<3 veg, you've got me sold

[Samapico]

When I see a wall of text, I assume that the person is right cause I'm too lazy to read it.

[rootbear75]

as for the happy thing: Misery loves company...

 

And good news wont pull in ratings/subscribers, which is why you see the most disastrous events on the front pages / headlines / top stories of the hour on newspapers/websites/News shows.

[AstroProdigy]

The Venus Project is a load of shit for two reasons.

 

1) Is it requires a post scarcity society which is conceivable in the far future if we had technology unimaginably more advanced than what we have now plus a limitless or near limitless source of power. That all may be nice and good and we should move in that direction regardless, but it doesn't require this venus project bullshit to do it. In fact our scientific community is already advancing rapidly under our current system.

 

2) The whole thing requires computers who keep us around to enjoy ourselves even though we'd be useless. If you've ever read Iain Banks' series about the Culture then it's basically what "The Venus Project" envisions. The unrealistic notion that we'd stay as regular humans being useless and just enjoying ourselves while artificial intelligences much more advanced than we are waste resources to keep us happy sounds as absurd as it is. They'd be better off destroying us. A more likely future involves a large segment of humans taking on mechanical parts to form some sorts of cyborgs while some humans actually make the plunge and become full on artificial intelligences. In this scenario humanity can't be destroyed by machines because there would be no dividing line between man and machine.

 

Overall this guy ignores all the details to set up a utopia as if we could only advance under this imaginary utopia. It's the same as all utopian visions it should be kept in the margins because utopias don't work and when people take power to try to make impossible utopias work it usually leads to unfathomable death and suffering.

[Aileron]

I agree with everything stated above. My only point is that the primary reason its a bad idea is that it throws away a million years of socioeconomic and political evolution in favor of a suddenly concocted system. I don't care how smart you are - you aren't smarter than the sum of the trillion people who came before you.

 

The proponents of this fail in the most basic understanding of leadership. The first thing one has to do in order to become a leader is to understand that other people are intelligent and capable of solving problems by themselves in their own way.

 

The Venus Project, or any group similar, are highly arrogant in that their core paradigms work under the assumption that problems aren't the result of inherent difficulty or disagreement, but rather due to human stupidity in the societal system we have created. Hence, they think that all they need to do to solve those problems is change the system.

 

As others in this topic have pointed out, history has no shortage of such fools. You can find people like this in even the most ancient of histories. There are only two points I'd like to make:

 

1) Fools like this are arrogant. Pride fuels their belief system.

 

2) When there is a problem in the world that has been around a while, most likely somebody before you noticed it and attempted to solve it before encountering some sort of difficulty that halted their progress. Thus, either the problem is either difficult and will require sacrifice to solve, or it is not a 'problem' at all but rather a fact of reality.

[Trained]

Did anyone not watch the first Zeitgeist movie? They had some very key points, except when they through in the religion that actually didnt have a "jesus" like feature, they said it did, but they did state some things I personally have over looked before. And as far as us working on a monetary system, I hate it. Money means nothing, and its rather sad what people will do for money.