Fixing Item Spam

[»Ceiu]

So, as many people have noted, item spamming in bases has gotten to the point of stupidity. I have a proposition which will fix the problem once and for all without neutering items or any of the ships which already have them (save for a few select builds; I'll touch on that later).

 

- Change the maximum inventory for a single item to three (possibly five, but that's pushing it).

- Make all items purchasable only at the ammo depots.

- Enjoy (item)spam-less basing.

 

 

To defend each point:

- By changing the maximum amount a single ship can carry to a low number it makes spamming items increasingly more difficult, since you'd have to go to an ammo depot to get more (which is roughly a 15-30 second delay between spam sessions). However, since you can still have a stock, they're still there when you need them (ie: to take over a corridor/bomb-line or to save your lanc from being assassinated). I'm hesitant to suggest five as it still allows the periodic AD spam of a multitude of reps/thors from a single ship.

- Changing the purchase location defeats h-core asshats macroing "?buy -c 3 repel" and using it on death. Without moving the purchase location, the change is meaningless.

- Not having to deal with item spam is more enjoyable. Yes, it will require more skill and thought to attack and defend... but I can live with that.

 

 

As it stands now, repel spamming makes bombs useless in basing, since they just get repelled back at your team and kill your own teammates. Plus, the whole AD+4 Repel build means you have a ship spamming your team with 8 repels, dying then doing it again. That's hardly basing -- it's just holding up-arrow and shift+control (aka: boring and talentless). Further, I think it's stupid that a single ship can push back an entire team. Basing should be a team effort and require some amount of strategy, not this "LOL HERO MODE!" crap we have with everyone trying to single handedly push the other team.

 

I've kind of discussed this in-game already, and some of the comments made me laugh; mostly due to the severe shortsightedness that comes from being a player who is set on the current broken tactic and refusal to accept change. Some lulzy excerpts are as follows:

 

T  DareSound> Ok, round 2 HS w/o items. I'm down.
T  DareSound> Lemme get in my spider to spam guns
T  DareSound> cuz nobody can defend it
T     Cerium> I'd emp your face
T  DareSound> I would retreat
T  DareSound> And still get kills
T     Cerium> and thus, we would move forward
T     Cerium> thanks for playing

T       Unix> Cerium, right now can you tell there is a difference from a "good" rusher and an "ok" rusher? 
T     Cerium> a "good" rusher has 3 repels and ad
T     Cerium> an OK rusher has a single repel
T       Unix> Most rushers tend to have 4 repels
T     Cerium> the fact you're ranking someone's rushing effectiveness based ENTIRELY on what ITEMS they have
T     Cerium> speaks volumes for the problems we've got
T       Unix> Generally speaking, all rushers will have 3-4 repels, but not all of them are nearly as good as one another

T  DareSound> Nobody will buy repels if you have to go to ammo depots and you can only carry 3, fuck that
T     Cerium> lol @ that
T  DareSound> It becomes thors

T   Kai Ossa> imo, I never pictured thors as WMDs. Always thought of thors as to softened enemy so others can overpower the other team's gun rush
T       Unix> Kai, I agree - but 100 missiles to soften up enemies tend to kill them
T   Kai Ossa> Thor spamming made it that way
T   Kai Ossa> moving to ammo depot was a good move this time

 

 

 

So yeah. You can post your thoughts and whatever... but chances are your opinions are wrong. Good luck, anyway.

[Sound]

moar gunz moar winz

[Unix]

Before I post anything I want to make it clear... I agree completely that item spamming is bad. I thought that the way thors were used were also bad, and I am in agreement that thor storming was bad and I do think that the current system is not the best system overall in terms of item usage.

 

However though, what you're suggesting Cerium is a tad too drastic. What you're suggesting will essentially completely change how basing is done in HS right now and also change how rush ships are made, it will also lower the number of actual rushers quite a bit.

 

The current system the way it is now showcases the difference between a rusher who knows what they're doing and a rusher who is simply item spamming. A better rusher will be able to do "hero mode", but at the same time, that "hero mode" doesnt happen every single time they rush, it happens every so often, but even then, shouldnt they be able to predict and counter any possible "hero modes"?

 

A veteran and a newb are rushing.. Given all things equal in terms of ship builds, who will rush better? I would imagine the veteran would be able to rush better, by a lot, in comparison to the newb. Right now that is what we have.. If you dont believe that, think about how much bashing playercontinuum has been getting, even though he basically has a pretty decent build in his ships.

 

If your max ship stock for repels/burst/thors was enough for just one life at most when used, wouldnt that make AD a lot less useful? I agree that sometimes it can be a bit too good, mainly in terms of when you follow up with a field. Say you do use all your items, effectively you're pretty much dead when you do revive. It's already pretty hard to AD now when they're ready for you with specials, imagine trying to AD when you DONT have any specials anymore, of course you can still field brick or whatever, but even then it's no where near as useful as it is now.

 

We did have a similar situation that you're somewhat introducing. Of course it's not the same, but there will be a lot of similarities. That is, when the current item set was first introduced.. For those of you who dont remember, this is the time when no one used specials, when people simply gunned and bombs were hard to use. Of course bricks and EMPs were used, but even then it was still hard to base and defenders had a HUGE advantage. I dont want to see this kind of basing again, and yes, people did try to work together, but it didnt work, and let's also face it, this is Hyperspace, people dont tend to do teamwork well

 

Rather than changing it drastically to what you're suggesting, why not make it so the ammo depots are the main balancing factor? Instead of the current max, why not make it 8 repel, 6 burst and 6 thor? That way you can still use AD once in a while, but if you dont fill it up when you have AD and you used up your items, your AD is kinda useless, not only that, but you will have to go to the ammo depots still to fill up, that will effectively make people use items well or make people go to the depots more.

 

If you are going to make them go to depots more like this, I would like to suggest MORE depots around center, that way players arent meeting up going toward the depots trying to kill each other. It'll just slow down the game more, and that's not good either.

[Emit]

Mechanics of the zone is still dumb regardless, but changeaway~

[»Ceiu]

However though, what you're suggesting Cerium is a tad too drastic. What you're suggesting will essentially completely change how basing is done in HS right now and also change how rush ships are made, it will also lower the number of actual rushers quite a bit.

That tends to happen in this zone. Remember that jackpot thing we used to have? You agree the system is broken, but you're afraid to change it. That makes me giggle a bit.

 

 

The current system the way it is now showcases the difference between a rusher who knows what they're doing and a rusher who is simply item spamming. A better rusher will be able to do "hero mode", but at the same time, that "hero mode" doesnt happen every single time they rush, it happens every so often, but even then, shouldnt they be able to predict and counter any possible "hero modes"?

 

A veteran and a newb are rushing.. Given all things equal in terms of ship builds, who will rush better? I would imagine the veteran would be able to rush better, by a lot, in comparison to the newb. Right now that is what we have.. If you dont believe that, think about how much bashing playercontinuum has been getting, even though he basically has a pretty decent build in his ships.

This bit of ranting is actually an argument against you. If vets are demonstrating how powerful item-spam can be, what do you think the newbies are going to build up to do?

 

 

If your max ship stock for repels/burst/thors was enough for just one life at most when used, wouldnt that make AD a lot less useful? I agree that sometimes it can be a bit too good, mainly in terms of when you follow up with a field. Say you do use all your items, effectively you're pretty much dead when you do revive. It's already pretty hard to AD now when they're ready for you with specials, imagine trying to AD when you DONT have any specials anymore, of course you can still field brick or whatever, but even then it's no where near as useful as it is now.

I'm pretty sure the purpose of AD is to respawn where you died, not to help with item spam. Not losing a lanc when it dies is still clutch and it will still be used primarily for that. As far as the whole rushing thing goes, if you want to try to use AD to rush passed the defense and you're convinced you need repels to survive the respawn (due to the blatantly obvious tactic that is AD-rushing), I suggest not wasting all 3-5 on your initial rush.

 

 

We did have a similar situation that you're somewhat introducing. Of course it's not the same, but there will be a lot of similarities. That is, when the current item set was first introduced.. For those of you who dont remember, this is the time when no one used specials, when people simply gunned and bombs were hard to use. Of course bricks and EMPs were used, but even then it was still hard to base and defenders had a HUGE advantage. I dont want to see this kind of basing again, and yes, people did try to work together, but it didnt work, and let's also face it, this is Hyperspace, people dont tend to do teamwork well

Pointless argument is pointless.

 

 

Rather than changing it drastically to what you're suggesting, why not make it so the ammo depots are the main balancing factor?

That's exactly what I'm suggesting; thanks.

 

 

Instead of the current max, why not make it 8 repel, 6 burst and 6 thor? That way you can still use AD once in a while, but if you dont fill it up when you have AD and you used up your items, your AD is kinda useless, not only that, but you will have to go to the ammo depots still to fill up, that will effectively make people use items well or make people go to the depots more.

You seem to be under the impression that a function of AD is to provide you with more items to spam. That's cute.

 

 

If you are going to make them go to depots more like this, I would like to suggest MORE depots around center, that way players arent meeting up going toward the depots trying to kill each other. It'll just slow down the game more, and that's not good either.

There are four item depots. If there is fighting at the one you want to go to, choose another one. Or, you can pretend it's a base and try to AD-rush through it.

 

 

tl;dr:

You're wrong, Unix; but thanks for playing.

[Dr Brain]

We used to sell ammo only at the depots. It made no effective difference in buy time. Players would just leave a lanc near a depot to facilitate item spammage.

 

We're working on solutions to all of these problems, but none of us (Arnk, D1 and I) have had much HS time lately.

[»Ceiu]

Which is fine, as it forces them to dedicate a lanc to be an anchor in a location where nothing is happening and they're making no money. Can't exactly go afk either as they'd get gunned down by people in center or they'd get spec'd for drifting.

The real problem with that strat is finding someone to do it. Hell, I had a debate with some kid yesterday who didn't want to drop flags because it was boring -- and he was close enough to be making cash off our kills. I imagine trying to get a lanc to sit alone at an ammo depot would be hell in itself.

[Dr Brain]

That's a problem. I don't want the flag game to go to the team that can successfully talk one of their lancs into earning nothing by sitting at an ammo depot for the whole game.

[Samapico]

Though it adds this... logistics strategy to it, and you can break enemy's logistics supplies.

But yeah, I wouldn't want to be the lanc sitting there

[vetta64]

eliminate salvo, only allow 2 reps, 2 thors per ship max, or 2 burst less for sharks. Only allow, reps, burst, or thors to be purchase at b8.

 

Sell gun and bomb ammo again, but only at b8, and one person can only carry 300 gun ammo, or 100 bomb ammo

[Samapico]

People without FTL drives would be way too disadvantaged by this... b8 is a looong way.

Some ships can only carry jump engines too, that would suck for them.

[Sound]

continue capacity upgrades, i.e my max reps is 3, max burst is 2.

 

ships spawn with a certain number of greens, = random # of items gained, up to the max their ship can hold, but usually very low, 0-1

[omni]

Just put some negative effects on repels and bursts like the way you added delay to thors. Like -5 energy or something.

[Emit]

All this discussion makes me hungry.

 

p.s. huge balancing issues regardless

[Kai Ossa]

Adding the delay to repel and bursts would reduce the item-spamming...

[vetta64]

Or. Have reps and thors drain nrg sutable to their use I.e. Thors consume like 1300 nrg each

 

Also, I drastically exagerate almost every post... Get used to that

Edited August 7, 2009 by vetta64

[Samapico]

The only energy drain they 'could' add to item use would be an energy depleted green... Other than that the server doesn't have much control over your energy.

[Unix]

Wouldnt it be easier to just change the mount system since that's where the specials come from? The one item that could probably be changed and have the most effect in the game in terms of item spamming would be defense mount.

 

Defense Mount - 1 rep

Siege Mount - 1 thor

NEW Mount - 1 burst

 

Then Combo Mount stays the same.

[»Ceiu]

There's a better system that would fix all of this without the silly penalties to items that may or may not be being developed.

[Gannon8]

The only energy drain they 'could' add to item use would be an energy depleted green... Other than that the server doesn't have much control over your energy.

Or you could hit them with a L1/2/3 bullet like fields do.

 

B8 should have permanent AW and a timer. One team can only buy one brick/field every, say, 90 seconds. Make utilities buyable only at ammo depots, but don't change how much the mounts hold.

 

Not like there is any point in suggesting this, because the only suggestions that were ever implemented were the item names "Dual Core" and "Quad Core."

Edited August 10, 2009 by Gannon8

[Acer]

Edit salvo.

[Requiem.]

Hyperspace,

Nerfing all the fun things simply because the other team dis-likes that you paid 600k+ to build a ship with the hopes that it will turn the tide of a losing battle.

 

EDIT:

Why not just lower bomb power and gun power as well as their delay.

There you go, that's pretty much what all of you are proposing.

 

Instead of you're hopeless attempt to remove all spammable items and therefore make hs dependable on guns/bombs again (and we all know how lovely overpowered that was)

Why not just try to remove all of the stupid players, who allow people in who have ad and bursts and then swiftly move forward, allowing them an awesome yet "totally unfair" blitz at their only backlanc.

 

 

Oh and also,

I'd lanc by an ammo depot just to spite you.

 

Now to seriously add to the topic.

bursts, even 3, aren't really overpowered,

most people know I have ad as well as 4reps+3bursts,

I get lamed through ad so much by just people laying mines in my general direction.

so with that I ad and you get nailed with 3+, and if I'm lucky enough to even reach a lanc with my ad (again, no lanc should be chilling up at the front unless there is atleast one other lanc in the back with ad)

But let's say I do somehow hit the backlanc, and he somehow doesn't have ad.

Too bad for you're team.

 

if something had to be nerfed, it should be salvo, making delay slightly longer (perhaps add 15+ to the delay, while still keeping it below most other bombs.)

Edited August 12, 2009 by Requiem.

[Gannon8]

I'd have to agree with you requiem. Bursts don't kill THAT many people. The only problems that I see are brickspam (coughacercough) and fieldspam.

[Acer]

Why bring me into this? Half the bricks I buy don't spawn because someone is there, or someone just died.. or has ad.. The real problem I'm seeing is with repels. Who ever has more reps wins.

[Gannon8]

Why bring me into this? Half the bricks I buy don't spawn because someone is there, or someone just died.. or has ad.. The real problem I'm seeing is with repels. Who ever has more reps wins.

You were still spamming a lot.

 

But the brickwarp module should refund your brick if it doesn't work because someone is there...

 

Ontopic: ...can't think of anything ATM.