Rapidshare

[PoLiX]

[FMBI]

Assuming that it's for real, then yeah, you have zero say in the long run.

 

On the other hand, this could finally be the transformation SS has been waiting a decade for.

 

Even if the transformation kills the original form completely, it could lead to something interesting.

 

So long, only-2d-spaceship-game-based-chatroom-in-the-universe.

[Emit]

It all comes down to whether people can accept change doesn't it?

 

We don't have the source code, and I don't think reverse engineering the original client is an option due to legal issues. We are faced with either going with the next best option and replicate what we already have into the new engine. Either way, I would go with the 'Change' with hopes that they allow the original subspace ssc, zone owners etc, to try and bring their gameplay that has made subspace to the new product.

 

Also would be cool if they offered you guys a job

[Incomplete]

I agree that this is what SS could be waiting for. But i'm not sure if people can let go of the power they have within SS. Alot of people on it are power hungry.

[»doc flabby]

From what I have read, the council agrees with our decision previous to this being forwarded to them. We feel they want nothing more than a take over.

 

I have yet to reply to him, as I wanted to wait for a more general consensus before I sign us up for a online "battle". As it sounds they will proceed cloning us if we don't just hand our shit over to them. Which as we all know, Uh, NO. Though it may be worth finding some middle ground, I dunno.

 

Opinions?

 

I don't think we need to worry about handing "shit" over, theres nothing to hand over. Pretty much all the subspace stuff is already freely available under open source licensing. The custom zone content is owned by the people who created it, they would require permission from whoever created it to use it, those negotiations would have to be done separately. Its only Continuum and subgame (subgame no one has the source to, but there are the patches), and the only person with the source is Prittk, its down to him if he sells it, its not like he needs the money.

 

- Accredit the SubSpace software (client/server)

- Solving any legal issues with the former right owners (since although playing will be completely free, considering our size, all legal questions must be solved)

- Setting up an own RapidShare Subspace universe with own (casual) rules, servers, and player achievement tracking databases.

- Making this project as the main game on games.rapidshare.com, maybe advertising it on the main RapidShare page.

- In some way "hiring" some expert Subspace staff to help us setting all up, coding extensions when we need them, and helping to keep our zones clean from cheaters and molesters.

 

What exactly does "Accredit" mean?

 

The legal issues surrounding subspace make it difficult to "use" in the way I think they want to. Much of the content is a legal grey area. Creating new content is pretty easy however and this issue can be easily solved that way. I think cloning the game will be too expensive for them to do, and is unlikely to be successful this game is not as simple to create. Don't let the 2d fool you, its as complex in design as a 3D FPS, if it was easy to recreate, we would have a fully working replacement client by now. Rakkar spend thousands of dollers making a subspace clone and failed with it.

 

Another legal issue is that much of the software used in subspace today are licensed under open source licences, that may be problematic to a commercial organisation (mostly GPL, I for example deliberately licence all my work GPL to prevent commercial interests using it without negotiating with me, or sharing their changes) They can use the server software, code, but that means they will have to share the source of any changes)

 

Now assuming these legal problems can be solved (and they can i think), and a new client can be developed, or an arrangement is made with Prittk and other contributors to purchase the source of Continuum and continue development.

 

Which brings me to my next question, where/why is our involvement even needed in this, they can do all of this without us, its not really decision we can really have any control over? They pretty much dodged that question (apart from throwing in that distracting "you might get a job" hook) in the reply to your email, which makes me wonder why.

 

To be clear i'm supportive of this idea, and a commercially supported subspace with a larger population would be great. But would it become P2P (Pay to play)? i don't feel like we have the whole story here, there must be a business plan somewhere, I'd like to know how they intend to make money out of it.

 

I have nothing against P2P games, but I would like to know upfront how they intend to recoup on the investment they are planning on making.

Edited April 29, 2009 by doc flabby

[L.C.]

I won't even read the replies.

 

Go for it.

 

If you decide otherwise, you're screwing yourself AND the community.

Edited April 29, 2009 by L.C.

[Testtube]

lol

[Cheese]

this would be fine if he simply hosts servers like priit does, but im suspicious of anything more

[Hate The Fake]

I vote no. We have nothing to lose by keeping to ourselves and everything to lose by joining them. In the email he wrote it seemed nothing less then piracy. Like a "if you dont give in to us, we already have someone wanting to copy your game." This deal seems rather fishy and nothing less then just trying to duplicate us onto a new server.

 

"I still hope we can get this deal running, as our staff is already negotiating with a software programming studio to just clone the whole Subspace thing."

 

"we have the money to hopefully solve the legal issues."

 

Also trenchwars has a forum also discussing this: http://forums.trenchwars.org/showthread.php?t=36669

[Testtube]

I hope they make a SS clone ID play it!@

[Animate Dreams]

I have no idea what's going on here, but it doesn't sound like... anything. Everything that can be referred to as "ours", is either owned by... whatever company owns SubSpace proper now, or is PriitK's, or is open source licensed GPL. There's not much we could "let" them do except have administrative access to the forums, which is basically useless.

 

Basically, they want their own zone, and maybe control over the game itself. Though it sounds like they may only be interested in the latter because of legal issues. So they have a couple options. Nothing's stopping them from creating their own zone, and if they actually got a population, I'm sure they'd end up with SSC biller access. They almost certainly wouldn't be able to buy PriitK's software off of him, even if he were legally allowed to sell it, and there's nothing we could do about it anyway. I think they think we have more control over the game than we do. What we do have, we freely give out, and there would be no reason to deny them anything just because of who they are, so no problems there, right?

Or they could just clone the game, which we can't control and can't even begin to control. No one here can. No one here could file any copyright claims, which they'd probably get around anyway. I can't imagine why they'd talk to us at all, unless they want our help. Personally I think that's a bad idea, SS administration brings more drama than productivity, but I'm sure if they ask for help people would be willing to help them. Again there's nothing we can do because our code is either already open sourced or completely unavailable.

Only other thing I can think of is if they just straight up bought SubSpace from whoever owns it now, and tries to fix up SS's old source code. This is stuff we don't even have, and can't give them. Again, our only involvement would be if we were asked, and again, I'm sure some people would be willing to help them. If not they'd probably do it anyway.

 

I'm not sure what's going on but it's obvious we aren't going to affect the outcome regardless, and it's also clear that whoever sent those e-mails doesn't understand the situation. Personally I don't think a major company would be any more capable of making SubSpace/Continuum successful than we were, outside of their ability to advertise. I think that with proper advertisement, this game would be a lot more popular, but that's just speculation. They don't know anything we don't, though, that's for sure. If they've got the resources and the rights to do some serious work on this game, then they're going to do it, and if they're nice enough to let us, some of which have some small degree of experience and may be able to give some proper advice, help them out and give them our ideas and plans we've been thinking of for the past 10 years, then obviously we're going to do that. If they don't let us then we're SOL anyway. So there's not really any discussion to be made.

[Incomplete]

I must admit something about this doesn't sit right with me.....

[Dr Brain]

There is no "our" or "us". We're a diverse community that has no central governing body (SSC can do what it wants, but zones are free to leave at any time). No decision can be made by the SSC, or by PriitK, or by Polix, or by anyone, that will mean *anything*. End of story.

 

If they want to recreate SS, or assimilate it, they'll need to keep the community aspect of player created content, or they'll have a lame 1995 space shooter game.

[Hakaku]

As long as they keep the game to some extent free and retain the 'subspace feel' to it, then I'd be okay. When I tried out Rak'kar's game in the past, Galactic Melee, just the fact that it maintained some of the old ss features and feel, along with some more modernised stuff, made me honestly feel willing to ditch Continuum over it. Assuming RapidShare goes the same way rather than choosing to go the way of creating a more loyal clone such as Discretion, I would still be okay with it. Actually, RapidShare could buy out Galactic Melee if they wanted, and avoid this whole SubSpace kafuffle.

 

And I guess Doc Flabby does bring good points about the licensing of a lot of software. But there is absolutely nothing saying that they have to be 100% loyal to what currently exists, and I think that that's where the problem lies. Evidently it would be nice if the current state of our community-run-ish game could be maintained as is, it's simply not feasible, neither for us, nor for them. (It's not entirely true that we're community run, as this game has always been controlled by but a mere few users. The community itself has had barely any say in most of what's been done over the years. Less now, but that's also tied to the rapidly declining state of our game.) If you're worried TW will go down, or whatever other zone, I can assuredly tell you that it's extremely unlikely to happen. Getting in contact with Priit is an entire issue itself, trying to buy out everything he controls/owns right now is a whole second issue (which I doubt RS will go through with).

 

In the end, there's really no say in any of this. Even if we accept or not their offer, Continuum & all will still remain a separate entity from their own game. If we don't accept their offer, it's likely that they may choose to still write their own game while including some aspects of SubSpace. If we do accept their offer, what of it? There's nothing any of us here can do, they'd have to still do pretty much everything down to the legal issues themselves.

[Chambahs]

"- In some way "hiring" some expert Subspace staff to help us setting all up, coding extensions when we need them, and helping to keep our zones clean from cheaters and molesters."

 

Lol? Molesters?

 

Also, I agree, something doesnt feel right here. I think the hidden catch here, is they actually need us to follow them. By "us" I mean the community. Lets say they copy the game, put it on their website, and release it for download and/or P2P. Then what? The staff will need to create their own "batch" of zones to get started. Sure, its easy to recreate TW and EG pub/settings, but they will have no development community there for help. Its like starting from the stone age. They'll need to learn to create fire, how to use it, how to keep it from going out, inventing the wheel again, etc. Nobody really knows the in-depth problems/issues/fixes/etc except our vet-side community.

 

Think about everything they will actually have to recreate/steal from us. Bots, map making programs, billers, etc. Not only do they need to recreate/steal those, they also need to learn how to use it all. Their threat of "taking over" can be answered with a removal of everything downloadable/discussed about continuum (the technical/server help side). As far as "giving you a job" goes, I think they are trying to piss on your leg and tell you its raining. Think about it, whos going to run their new community? Who is going to mod that "100,000" player base? If you think about it, the amount of dev/staff that continuum has, (in each zone, on forums, every mod, smod, sysop, ER, ZH, devver) probably outweighs their rapidshare staff team; not to mention, we are all more experienced.

 

What it seems they want to do, is remake SS, make all of us follow them, and pretty much have us make everything for them while they sit there and do nothing. Pretty much, just like in the movies, where the bad guys have hundreds of scientists in the cellar, making a nuclear bomb, because the bad guy somehow convinced them it was for good. Then, after the scientists were done, they explained how they would destroy the earth, then killed off all the scientists? Yea, thats the direction this seems to be going in.

 

Long story short, I think -WE- are the ones who should be calling the shots here, because without us, its going to be a huge effort to start things up on their part.

 

My answer: Hell yes, go with it, BUT, dont let them manipulate you into doing what they want. We should make them agree to things on OUR terms. Its a 50/50 share, we should have 50% in the say of things. They bring the money, we bring the life. We want shit kept a certain way, they want their things...compromise.

 

PS: Maybe im totally missing something, or completely off base, maybe not, but I just woke up, maybe I didnt read something correctly, since I pretty much skimmed over everyone's post. Let me know if this is irrelevant please.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Chambahs

[Animate Dreams]

There is no "our" or "us". We're a diverse community that has no central governing body (SSC can do what it wants, but zones are free to leave at any time). No decision can be made by the SSC, or by PriitK, or by Polix, or by anyone, that will mean *anything*. End of story.

 

If they want to recreate SS, or assimilate it, they'll need to keep the community aspect of player created content, or they'll have a lame 1995 space shooter game.

No, but there is a group of content that people think of when you say "ours". Like I said, the person who sent the e-mails doesn't understand the situation.

 

I originally thought the same as you, that the game would have to still be player-run, but I think Infantry has shown that to be untrue. Infantry had the same basic gameplay, and it wasn't player-run. In fact, it was pay to play, and still popular. It was no WOW. But any game that can support a paying playerbase for several years is a success in my book. So it is possible. I just don't think it would be worth my while. Besides, I think of Continuum as more than a game, and the fact that it's a game that allows you, or even encourages you, to try your own hand at creating zones, is a large part of that. If we do anything, it should be to tell the guy who sent the e-mails exactly how important it is to have things open-sourced and player-run. There's not much else we can do, and of all the things we've learned, I think that is the most important. It doesn't really seem like their plan allows for true decentralization like we almost have now, but there's no reason they can't keep things player-run.

[Animate Dreams]

Also, I agree, something doesnt feel right here. I think the hidden catch here, is they actually need us to follow them. By "us" I mean the community. Lets say they copy the game, put it on their website, and release it for download and/or P2P. Then what? The staff will need to create their own "batch" of zones to get started. Sure, its easy to recreate TW and EG pub/settings, but they will have no development community there for help. Its like starting from the stone age. They'll need to learn to create fire, how to use it, how to keep it from going out, inventing the wheel again, etc. Nobody really knows the in-depth problems/issues/fixes/etc except our vet-side community.

 

Think about everything they will actually have to recreate/steal from us. Bots, map making programs, billers, etc. Not only do they need to recreate/steal those, they also need to learn how to use it all. Their threat of "taking over" can be answered with a removal of everything downloadable/discussed about continuum (the technical/server help side). As far as "giving you a job" goes, I think they are trying to piss on your leg and tell you its raining. Think about it, whos going to run their new community? Who is going to mod that "100,000" player base? If you think about it, the amount of dev/staff that continuum has, (in each zone, on forums, every mod, smod, sysop, ER, ZH, devver) probably outweighs their rapidshare staff team; not to mention, we are all more experienced.

 

They don't need us any more than Blizzard needed the creators of Everquest(hint: they did not at all). If they have the knowledge and resources to create a working client/server, they can definitely make a few automated bots, and a few unique zones. Likely, they'd just create a client/server that was much more powerful and didn't need bots, and while I love our programs like DCME, and I'm very impressed with it, there's no way they wouldn't be able to make something at least as good, if not better. They won't need us at all.

 

This isn't a conspiracy, and we can't just get rid of all our content. I don't know what you're trying to suggest, you mean taking down SSDL, and MGBF? It's not possible, because we're decentralized, and even if it were, it would destroy the game. If they have any job offers it's because they recognize that it takes actual intelligence and skill to do as much as the "executives" here have managed. Not out of necessity. I have never in my entire gaming career seen someone with the ability to make their own online game, release, host, and distribute it, but not actually be able to manage it. It's like the IT guys at my college learning how to hook up a network who are convinced they'll get a job somewhere where they'll get to manage everything, and "code monkeys" will do all the bothersome coding they never learned how to do. It just isn't going to happen. Yes, we have knowledge, experience, and original content we can offer them, but they're on a level above that. Hell, even our knowledge and experience is definitely questionable. We've had more drama and zone closings because of stupid shit than any other game I've run into. Continuum has held on by a thread.

 

This is an offer, not a threat. They don't need to threaten us and we wouldn't have a single bit of leverage if they did. Don't freak out. It works both ways, though. It's incredibly unlikely they could ever end up in a position to kill Continuum, either, except by simply offering a superior product. Which, though I know people would bitch about it, would be a great thing to happen to the community.

[L.C.]

We have nothing to lose by keeping to ourselves and everything to lose by joining them.

This is completely incorrect.

 

1. The current Continuum and server files will always be available no matter what happens.

2. The community has everything to gain; VIE once ruled this game, but then they gave the game up and the game went under control of a non-corporate/company, "player" council. This game needs a company to rule, a company willing to put their time, effort, and money into the game again as once did VIE. Besides, if this game is really that bad, it'd be their loss, not ours.

3. This community has everything to lose without #2; at this rate we will die a slow and guaranteed death.

4. If you don't like RS, then go run your own network or join Snrrrub's Isometry network. SSC is the same as it had been years ago; around 3 weeks ago I submitted an application for BlueT Jackpot SVS and/or BlueT Dragonball Z to receive SSC access, and for BlueT Jackpot SVS' site to go into the Subspace Bar at the top of these forums. Since then I've not even got a single reply, single word, any updates or information. I'm being completely ignored.

 

 

There's not much we could "let" them do except have administrative access to the forums, which is basically useless.

One thought I had was if they created their own biller or network, or joined with Isometry and ran their SSC-independent thing. However, the only problem I myself have with this is the inability to develop Continuum and the non-SSC messages (Snrrrub already has a client hack to remove this, so non-SSC messages aren't that much of a problem). Now the fact that Christian Schmid and Priit have a history together and that they are both working for huge companies -- Priit could be motivated (and/or paid) by RapidShare to keep the game moving.

 

If RapidShare goes their own network, independent from SSC, they will run into some issues, such as the non-SSC messages and having to develop their own biller (but that wouldn't be a problem if they can afford to hire a company to clone the game). If they run the community as did VIE, they will have more than just plain administrative access.

 

This community NEEDS a company/corporation to run this game, to invest in this game, and to lead the way. Just look back all the way to 2000; since then this game has only been dying, getting worse, getting nowhere, and the community becoming a flamefest and full of ignorance, arrogance, and without any direction. RapidShare can give the community a direction because they have the money, they are willing to invest into this game, they have the time, they have everything needed. I doubt Priit would ignore an e-mail or communication with a large company like RapidShare.

[Chambahs]

My whole idea was that they would be saving ALOT of money and ALOT of time/effort. Think of how many people would need to be paid if it wasnt player-run? Everyone that codes -anything at all- needs to be paid. All moderation personnel needs to be paid (and thats not just a one time payment). If they dont go player-run, then they'll need to hire "GM's" or whatever they are going to call themselves.

 

If we hand over all our shit, and all the people that have been doing shit for free...again think how much time/money/effort that saves them. Theres also only a handful of us who -really- know what needs to be fixed in SS. If they clone SS, they will be cloning all the stuff that we complain about today. We have most of the fixes, we know what needs to be changed, they will have to learn the hard way.

 

 

As far as "shutting down MGBF and SSDL, no, i didnt mean literally shut it down. I was just saying...you know...like if they didnt have all those resources.

[»Purge]

I seriously don't think Continuum will prosper as much as they offer unless the game gets updated regularly, and for that we would need client code which we do not have. And what would happen to SSF.net and your SubSpace Online? Will they only host the site on rapidshare.com since he wants to make it the "main game"?

[L.C.]

I seriously don't think Continuum will prosper as much as they offer unless the game gets updated regularly, and for that we would need client code which we do not have. And what would happen to SSF.net and your SubSpace Online? Will they only host the site on rapidshare.com since he wants to make it the "main game"?

Nothing ventured is nothing gained.

[Aceflyer]

Online battle? How would that even begin to work?

 

I think their intentions are pretty straightforward. Either they get 'us' (by 'us' I mean the interested community) on-board, and get us to help out whenever possible, or they don't, and do a little more work. They'd prefer the former but are fine with the latter.

[»Purge]

I seriously don't think Continuum will prosper as much as they offer unless the game gets updated regularly, and for that we would need client code which we do not have. And what would happen to SSF.net and your SubSpace Online? Will they only host the site on rapidshare.com since he wants to make it the "main game"?

Nothing ventured is nothing gained.

 

I'm saying that we should at least wait until one of the client projects is finished. If we go into this offer with the Continuum client no one except PriitK would be able to support us in such a big step. If Rapidshare's goal to bring a larger playerbase should work, we would need to bring innovative ideas into this outdated client, not to mention the "cheaters" he wants to be kept out which can be done through client-side protocol.

 

Carelessly venturing into major decisions like this will be can carry a huge risk that cannot be fixed in the future. On the other hand, maybe PriitK will be all for this and help out with regular updates?

[Dav]

what I want to know is what will become of out current community? will the servers end up being turned off to gather dust, all our current zones lost and everyone religated back to the rank of newbie? or will we take it all with us?

 

It sounds to me as this could go three ways:

 

1. we go with them and continuum as we know it will be over in favour of the new era

2. they buy cont or SS and set up a rival community

3. they don't get a deal and nothing changes

[»doc flabby]

My whole idea was that they would be saving ALOT of money and ALOT of time/effort. Think of how many people would need to be paid if it wasnt player-run? Everyone that codes -anything at all- needs to be paid. All moderation personnel needs to be paid (and thats not just a one time payment). If they dont go player-run, then they'll need to hire "GM's" or whatever they are going to call themselves.

 

If we hand over all our shit, and all the people that have been doing shit for free...again think how much time/money/effort that saves them. Theres also only a handful of us who -really- know what needs to be fixed in SS. If they clone SS, they will be cloning all the stuff that we complain about today. We have most of the fixes, we know what needs to be changed, they will have to learn the hard way.

Ill make this point again.

 

There is nothing to hand over, they could setup their own servers already with the resources freely available and design their own maps and tilesets, alter a freely available bot and setup a zone, or even a network of zones. They could do this now with no legal issues. the server code is opensource, and finding artists to create art/tileset/settings wouldnt be that hard with some money. The sticking point is the client, as it has a specific clause in the software licence:

 

2. COPYRIGHT. You have no ownership rights in regards to this software product. All works contained herein are copyright and property of their respective owners and are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties and provisions. You are not granted any rights other than those expressly stated within this LICENCE. This software should be treated like any other copyrighted material, with the express exception that it may be freely copied and distributed within the guidelines listed in Section 1.

 

This software is licenced to you only for your personal enjoyment and the enjoyment of others. It is provided free of charge and may not be used for any commercial purposes whatsoever. You may not loan, rent, lease, sell, give, offer for sale, sublicence, or othwerwise transfer this product, or any portion therein, or any portion incorporated therein (such as visuals or sounds) in exchange for any monies, revenue, or other services. You may not permit someone to use this software in exchange for anything, this software should be distributed free of charge or commitment.

 

You may not recreate, modify, adapt, translate, create derivative works of, decompile, disassemble or otherwise reverse engineer or attempt to reverse engineer or derive source code from, all or any portion of this product or anything incorporated therein, including any screen display, sound or accompanying documentation, or permit or encourage any third party to do so.

 

3. COMMERCIAL EXPLOITATION PROHIBITED. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing restrictions, specifically you may not offer this product on a pay-per-play basis or on a subscription basis or on a computer system or network to which you lease or rent access to players.

 

Continuum is legally protected from being commercially exploited. Therefore any such use (ie alternative licensing) would have to be directly negotiated with the creators of Continuum.

 

Which brings me back my initial question, where do we (the subspace community) fit into this? and how do rapidshare intend on making money out of continuum?

Edited April 29, 2009 by doc flabby