TEA Parties

[NBVegita]

So I'm sure by now you've all heard of the TEA Parties going on across the country and I'm wondering what your thoughts on them are.

 

I personally support not only that they're protesting, but also that they're finally protesting governmental taxation and spending. A lot of groups I've read about, including the one held in my own town was protesting not just Obama and the democrats but the republicans too.

 

I don't know how effective in the grand scheme this will really be, but I personally don't think that, at this point, a revolution would be such a bad idea.

[FMBI]

You fell for this?

 

Courtesy of the eXile:

 

 

First expose

 

Second expose

 

 

Edit - Plus, why would anyone take right-wing populism seriously in the first place? Considering all the countries it's destroyed over the last years, and is currently destroying in Asia and Africa, it makes no sense to support it here. "Let's unleash the mob! Let's pave the road to a Palin presidency! Woo-hoo!"

Edited April 16, 2009 by Finland My BorgInvasion

[Bak]

yes let's ignore every economist's advice and go for another 10 year long depression. i don't like the trillion dollar bailouts / stimulus, but it's better than the alternative. I just hope we've done enough. Debt is preferable to a long recession.

[NBVegita]

Ignore economist's advice?

 

Oh you mean we should only listen to economists who agree with the current president?

 

A) People aren't protesting the fact that there is spending or taxes, they're protesting the amount of spending and the things it's being spent on.

 

For every economist who agrees that trillions of dollars should be dumped into the economy, there is one who views the opposite.

 

A quote from Robert Barro, whom if you know anything about economics I really don't have to elaborate as to who he is.

 

"This is probably the worst bill that has been put forward since the 1930s. I don’t know what to say. I mean it’s wasting a tremendous amount of money. It has some simplistic theory that I don’t think will work, so I don’t think the expenditure stuff is going to have the intended effect. I don’t think it will expand the economy. And the tax cutting isn’t really geared toward incentives. It’s not really geared to lowering tax rates; it’s more along the lines of throwing money at people. On both sides I think it’s garbage. So in terms of balance between the two it doesn’t really matter that much."

 

Also, he is not a republican conservative, he is a classical liberal, which doesn't represent either party.

 

A good link: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/01/28/...t-the-stimulus/

 

C) People control the economy. The only way the economy will right itself is when people regain the confidence of investing. The stimulus package has no chance of doing that. Hmm a $400 dollar tax credit, that’s gonna make me run to the stock market, specially being its being given to me in $15-$20 increments over a long period of time. How the hell does that stimulate anything? Oh yeah, if I earn money because I rent out a house or of my investments earn money, well I have to pay the credit back. Hmmm created jobs in specialized fields that are in complete contrast with the fields whom have layed off the most people in the recession...yeah that'll get people employed. Instead of stopping the outrageous Bush era spending, lets quadruple it. Congressional auditors state that the budget will be 9.7 trillion over 8 years, assuming he get's re-elected, and the congressional budget office says it could be as high as 11.6 trillion.

 

The same people who crucified Bush's deficit don't seem to mind Obama's? Wasn't he supposed to lower the deficit? With his proposed spending the only way you would be able to even pay for what he proposes would be to levy a horrendous tax against all Americans. He claims he won't raise taxes on the middle class? Well when he raises the tax that your company has to pay to 50% to make up for his spending, you will lose your job, or the company will just move to another country, where you will again lose your job. Over tax the rich? Well they'll do the same thing, they'll pull their investments out of our economy, which would destroy it, and move to other countries and focus on their economies.

 

Bush put us in a hell of a hole with his deficit that Obama touted he would diminish. That is one of the reasons why I voted for Obama. Yet now that he's in office, even if his deficit numbers equal half of what is projected, instead of cutting our 2.x trillion dollar deficit, he'll raise it by 4.x trillion.

 

There is absolutely nothing in this bill that will increase confidence in investing nor is there anything in this bill that will increase confidence in credit lending. Until those two factors are met, we will continue to be in a recession.

 

Also how are we supposed to pay down a, generously 6-7 trillion dollar deficit?

 

Leave it to Fin to quote a tabloid news source from Russia, well exiled from Russia.

 

Now this seems like nice, sound, objective reporting to me:

Spoiler! --Click here to view--

Katz, who looked more like a failed porn actor, a dweeby version of Ron Jeremy, than a political organizer, was saying something about the need to move past partisanship. Resistance wasn’t about being Republican, Democrat or Green — it was about being American. That got cheers from the crowd, but looking around me, these people were clearly going to have trouble hiding their obvious Republicanism.

 

A few people were holding anti-Obama signs. One guy, who called himself a comedian, held up a slickly designed sign that read: “Don’t Tax Me, Bro!” A sickly young couple, who identified their political affiliation as “freeper,” held thin cardboard signs with anti-tax slogans quickly scrawled with markers. There were a bunch of Republican hags. Some were senile and could barely walk; a few of the more sprightly ones had donned 18th century dresses they’d saved from their first proms. A dozen or so clean-cut Young Republican types were dispersed through the crowd. None of them would admit it, but they were obvious organizers of the whole sham gathering.

 

Two other observations could be made about the crowd: 1) it was too white and 2) there were no chicks. In America, chicks are protest canaries. You can tell just how authentic a political rally is by the number of attractive women that attend. If you’re gonna build a mass movement against anything, there’s no way of getting around the chick factor. The only cute girl, a perky, tall blond, appeared later. (Looking at her picture now, she does not seem cute at all. But that just goes to show how bad the situation really was. This teabagging wasn’t for pleasure.) But she was on the job, working for some conservative TV station called Freedom Talk or Freedom Now. Judging by the name, it was connected to FreedomWorks, and she was obviously connected to Katz, chatting him up like they were friends at the end of the show.

 

And then he just ignored the question, shifting his attention to a dweeby Republican who came up to introduce himself.

 

Am I saying that all of the roots of the TEA parties are pure? No. But the people around the country who are attending these events are protesting for what they believe in. If the democratic party had done the same during the Bush administration you would have heralded their efforts. With that aside, I stated implicitly that a lot of groups I have read about are protesting BOTH parties. In fact republican politicians were turned away at a lot of rallies and/or not allowed to speak.

 

Even if this did start as a "Republican" agenda, it has evolved beyond that, of course that is another matter of debate as each group in each city will have a slightly different agenda.

[»doc flabby]

Also how are we supposed to pay down a, generously 6-7 trillion dollar deficit?

You're going to print it, if you create a 10 trillion doller notes you can easily pay off that debt

 

In fact you've already started this process.

 

Don't let the term "Quantative Easing" fool you, it is simply printing money electronically.

 

The problem has been the chinese hording dollers and not spending them...If they had the spend the dollers they are hording and the money had come back to the USA its doubtful this crisis would ahve happened.

 

I've explained a bit more in detail here.

 

http://forums.trenchwars.org/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=54

Edited April 16, 2009 by doc flabby

[NBVegita]

Lol?

 

You do realize that printing money that we can't back with a global currency does nothing be devalue the dollar. Just a little example:

 

If our dollar and the euro were worth the same.

 

Say we currently have 10 trillion printed dollars.

 

We print 10 trillion more, our dollar will become worth approximately half of what it is currently. Not just those dollars, but all of the dollars currently in circulation will devalue. Which means when investing/purchasing internationally we have to spend twice as much. Now who has these dollars? Well its not the people, they don't have them.

 

Even if you did print 10 trillion dollars, it might as well be funny money because it's worth nothing.

 

Part of this problem stems from the fact that Bush naively tried that same exact thing. I believe he printed...400 billion dollars (approx) worth of currency to offset the deficit...yeah you see how well that worked! Note how right after he did that the pound was worth just over twice the US dollar? Funny coincidence?

[»doc flabby]

Lol?

 

You do realize that printing money that we can't back with a global currency does nothing be devalue the dollar. Just a little example:

 

I didn't say it was a good idea Its essentially another way to tax the population without them realising.

 

But thats what they are going to do (are doing)

 

And of cource but ALL the major world currencies (Doller/Yen/Euro/Pound) are now engaging in this money printing exercise.

 

Its essentially a tax on money.

[FMBI]

Leave it to Fin to quote a tabloid news source from Russia, well exiled from Russia.

 

First,

 

A good link: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/01/28/...t-the-stimulus/

 

When you're linking to C@L, I don't think you have a right to complain about anything I post, short of Pravda.

 

Second,

 

eXiled is definitely a tabloid, but it's also had some of the world's best reporting for the last decade now - and I'm not exaggerating when I say that. If you ever have 3 or 4 weeks to spare, check out some of their old stories about politics - how many other sources were consistently right 5 years ahead of their time?

 

Finally,

 

Am I saying that all of the roots of the TEA parties are pure? No. But the people around the country who are attending these events are protesting for what they believe in. If the democratic party had done the same during the Bush administration you would have heralded their efforts. With that aside, I stated implicitly that a lot of groups I have read about are protesting BOTH parties. In fact republican politicians were turned away at a lot of rallies and/or not allowed to speak.

 

Even if this did start as a "Republican" agenda, it has evolved beyond that, of course that is another matter of debate as each group in each city will have a slightly different agenda.

 

Heh, this also has multiple sections, so:

 

1. No, I would not have heralded their efforts. The whiny wimps who protested against Bush were just a spineless bunch of idiots shaming the good name of liberalism.

 

2. They might think they're protesting both parties, but when 99% of the support for these tea parties is coming from right-wing talk radio types and corporate fundraisers, I kind of doubt that they're going to come up with any truly independent thoughts. Remember, China routinely has anti-state and anti-foreigner protests, but the results are very one-sided, because the state is doing a lot of the backing for those protests; hence, it can prevent any real damage to itself, while still doing damage to its opponents. It's the same way with these - Republican figures say "Be independent of BOTH PARTIES - oh, and vote for Palin!"

 

3. Astroturfing never truly evolves. Like its namesake, it's inorganic to begin with. You can repaint the fake grass, you can make all sorts of modifications, but nothing is going to happen on its own. And what does it matter if the people in Olympia have a slightly different agenda than the people in Tulsa? They're still going to vote for the same party, support the same views on the same issues, and listen to the same news sources.

 

Tea parties = An insult to tea-drinkers everywhere.

[NBVegita]

First,

 

The only reason why I cited Cato was because they had compiled a list of economist opposed to the current stimulus. Check out each economist, you'll find that Cato did not misrepresent them.

 

Lol exile having some of the worlds best reporting? Not saying that their reporting has all been crazy tabloid, but their extremely objective and sensationalized reporting doesn't lend them credibility, even when they are right. As I pointed out in my previous post, one of their big quantifiers why it isn't a real protest is because there are no pretty girls there? Give me a break.

 

but when 99% of the support for these tea parties is coming from right-wing talk radio types and corporate fundraisers, I kind of doubt that they're going to come up with any truly independent thoughts.

 

Cite that please?

 

I've seen dozens of video's of these and attended one as a spectator in my city, no where was there a republican agenda (in what I've seen). No one hinted at voting in Palin or a republican. In fact even at the event I was at, they refused to let local politicians of any party speak. Most of the people in the crowd wanted to vote out ALL of congress in 2010, not just the democrats.

 

And what does it matter if the people in Olympia have a slightly different agenda than the people in Tulsa? They're still going to vote for the same party, support the same views on the same issues, and listen to the same news sources.

 

Lol of course, because they're all zombies created by the GOP machine.

 

What I don't think you understand is that idea's can take root out of any situation. You say the Republican party is "really" behind these parties. Well all it takes is a few leaders who are actually doing this for the reasons publically stated and the idea has taken root. I guarantee you there are groups that protested that have had no contact with any republican politicians.

 

Now I'll take a tangent. Say you're right. Say every single person, minus 1% is doing this as part of a mass republican agenda. What is wrong with what they're protesting? I outlined just a few of the flaws in this so called "stimulus" package in my last post.

[Bak]

yes, saying that it's corporate supported doesn't take away from the fact that thousands of people turned out