Atheism and Agnosticism

[»Lynx]

Whoaa there, step off the high horse for a second, just before you bless us all with your amazing super-powerful words of wisdom... Atheism is a religion? So is Agnosticism? Goodness me, there I was thinking that I never believed in God and never followed any religion, yet now I'm being told that I'm actually religious (by definition, have a belief in a deity)... A typical deluded view point that I am hearing so much more often now...

 

Anybody can figure that article is extremist anti-religious drool, but to say that it's waffle because it doesn't contain 'scientific' sources is about as ironic as the post Freakman made... Bleh, I can't be bothered to continue.

 

 

-L

[NBVegita]

Actually I would have to say Ail is right on the religion front, at least in a basic manner, concerning atheists and agnostics.

 

Religion:

 

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

 

So both do fall into the second and third definitions and fall into the first part of the first definition.

[CRe]

I agree with NBVegita and Aileron. Atheism and Agnosticism are religions.

[»Lynx]

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

 

# having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity; "a religious man"; "religious attitude"

 

Going by the last two points you gave, we could say that there is a Nazi Religion, a Democrat and Republican religion... :/

[SeVeR]

Every religion' date=' including agnosticism and atheism, has doctrine that goes with it[/quote']

I agree with NBVegita and Aileron. Atheism and Agnosticism are religions.

Atheism is a religion because there is faith in God not existing. I don't see how agnosticism is a religion, because by it's nature it doesn't subscribe to any notion of faith.

 

Please, the people who have said Agnosticism is a religion, explain why?

[FMBI]

I'll just step in here to say : Welcome back, Ail, too bad you figured out that the Third Reich was really all about the atheistic plan to conquer the world. Sucks that us atheists had to rely on cultural traits that were generally created by churches when we were trying to convince people to come to our side.. you know, things like hating Jews, or Orthodox Christians, or supporting an omniscient monarch figure..

 

Plus, you, along with 99% of the people I've ever talked to, got the Pharisees backwards. Since I don't have 3 years to spend arguing, though, here's a rundown:

 

Pharisees = good, Jesus = Pharisee, Paul = Non-Pharisee, early Christians under Paul = anti-Pharisee propagandists

 

Still, though, assuming you switch that to the Sadducees, I suppose you have a point. Almost.

 

 

And as far as the article - Kinda took it a little too seriously, didn't you? Heck, I already put up two disclaimers about it. But if that isn't enough, let me say it directly: It's funny, it's a new way of looking at things, and it's probably incorrect beyond a few very basic statements.

 

And to round off a highly polemical post - atheism is not a religion, no matter how many times the Intelligent Design people say it is.

 

If you go to a culture that has no religion, simply because they never came to rely on supernatural causes to explain their existence, are they religious, despite their innate atheism? Atheism is not necessarily a direct denial of God so much as an acceptance that God is irrelevant to natural processes, except perhaps as the original creator who is currently out to lunch - therefore, you are eliminating faith, rather than substituting an alternate one. ^_^

[»Lynx]

It's not my faith that God doesn't exist, it's my logical reasoning. I'll say it again, Atheism is *not a religion. Just because one can't disprove something that's impossible to prove, doesn't mean I require faith to not believe in it, it just means that the religious (those who believe in a deity) require faith to believe in something that cannot be proven.

 

-L

[NBVegita]

I would say that it is your belief Lynx, that God does not exist. Being neither side can prove that God either exists or does not, it is a belief one way or another. You fall under the concept of religion because of your belief concerning an all powerful being(s), which then influences your belief on the afterlife, the creation of the universe and all sorts of other topics.

 

I would say that Agnosticism would be a more philosophical view point concerning religion, but I would still vaguely categorize it as its own religion.

[Aileron]

According to the copy of Webster's I have:

 

1. a set of beliefs concerning the nature and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency

2. an institutionalized system of religious beliefs and worship

3. something a person believes in devoutly

 

 

Lynx, Here's how Atheism fits in:

 

1. The belief here is that the nature and purpose of the universe is that the universe' nature is one of random chance devoid of purpose. It also states the creation of the universe was due to a coincidence of random events, many of which mind you had low probabilities of actually happening, which makes those events superhuman do to their inability to be controlled or even predicted by mortals.

 

2. 'Institutionalized' I'll admit does not fit that well. However, many institutions exist that do not have formalized control measures, meeting places, and the like. What you need to have in an institution is a community of people with a self-defined set of boundaries. Atheists are a community, and they have their boundaries. Anyone who believes in a deity does not fit within the institution which atheists consider themselves to be within.

 

3. Atheists are group that like any other vary in how devout they are. They range from the near agnostic to the hardcore believers who are absolutely convinced that there is nothing superhuman.

 

 

Agnosticism:

 

1. The nature and purpose of the universe is placed subordinate to worldy needs. Of the purposes the agnostic doesn't stick to a religion, whatever purpose is highest is the purpose of the universe.

 

2. Anyone who has a religion and sticks to it is outside the institution of agnosticism.

 

3. Devoution can vary here too. Some agnostics favor a religion. Some are dedicated to ensuring that they do not favor on religion over another. Hate to start another argument, but the people who start major fights over the Ten Commandments being posted in public places could qualify as a hardcore agnostic.

[FMBI]

According to the copy of Webster's I have:

 

1. a set of beliefs concerning the nature and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency

2. an institutionalized system of religious beliefs and worship

3. something a person believes in devoutly

 

 

Lynx, Here's how Atheism fits in:

 

1. The belief here is that the nature and purpose of the universe is that the universe' nature is one of random chance devoid of purpose. It also states the creation of the universe was due to a coincidence of random events, many of which mind you had low probabilities of actually happening, which makes those events superhuman do to their inability to be controlled or even predicted by mortals.

 

2. 'Institutionalized' I'll admit does not fit that well. However, many institutions exist that do not have formalized control measures, meeting places, and the like. What you need to have in an institution is a community of people with a self-defined set of boundaries. Atheists are a community, and they have their boundaries. Anyone who believes in a deity does not fit within the institution which atheists consider themselves to be within.

 

3. Atheists are group that like any other vary in how devout they are. They range from the near agnostic to the hardcore believers who are absolutely convinced that there is nothing superhuman.

 

 

1 - Easily explainable through the multiverse theory, also, doesn't take into account the fact that if it didn't work for our particular form of life, we wouldn't be observing it - hence, there are probably alien life forms in other universes, or even other galaxies, worshipping their form of god for giving them exactly what they need to live.

 

Also, over the years we have gained a massive amount of knowledge about what happened in the first milliseconds of the universe - things that we could never have even imagined 100 years ago. Considering how much we've learned, and how much power we've gained (splitting the atom? hell, splitting fundamental particles?) it seems extremely naive to assume that we won't figure out even more in the future - whereas believing that we will know more is common sense, backed up by history and observations.

 

2. Atheists have no institutions, unless they're silly little atheist clubs for narcissists who happen not to believe in a god. "Anyone who believes in a deity does not fit within the institution which atheists consider themselves to be within" - guess that means I can't talk to Christians anymore, huh?

 

3. True, except that there is no way of being devout if your beliefs contradict the nature of being devout in the first place. I might be absolutely convinced that there is no god, whereas my neighbor might be pretty sure there isn't one - but does that mean I'm "more trusting" or "practice my religion" more? No, it simply means that he doesn't give a monkey's tail, whereas I will reject any supernatural explanation unless it can be verified and shown to be more than the effect of someone's imagination. I care more, but that doesn't mean I'm more religious.

[Bak]

Atheism is a religion because there is faith in God not existing.

 

lacking a belief is not the same as believing in the opposite of it.

 

before you read this post, did you believe I had an apple on my desk? You did not.

did you believe I didn't have an apple on my desk? You did not.

 

you didn't have a belief one way or the other. Atheism by itself does not make any belief claims, only a non-belief claim about gods. Agnosticism deals with knowledge, Atheism deals with beliefs; they're independent of each other.

[L.C.]

You can't not have a religion. Everyone has a religion whether or not they claim to have one.

 

Ethics and morals have all to do with it; it is what you believe is right and wrong. Just stop and think about this if you think otherwise.

[Bak]

You can't not have a religion.

This seems more to be an argument over definitions than anything else. What is your definition of a religion? For me it's a set of beliefs with a dogma and associated rituals. Given that definition, people can exist without having a religion. If you disagree with my definition, I encourage you to find a counterexample (a religion that does not fit the definition, or a nonreligion that fits the definition). Alternatively, propose your own definition and I can look for counterexamples.

[SeVeR]

I define religion as having faith that your beliefs are right. Thus, not everyone is religious.

 

Atheism by itself does not make any belief claims' date=' only a non-belief claim about gods.[/quote']

Atheists believe there is no God. It is a belief. If you possess doubts about God then you are an agnostic.

 

You can't not have a religion. Everyone has a religion whether or not they claim to have one.

I am a skeptic, scientist, agnostic. I don't believe any Gods exist but i certainly won't say they don't exist, that would be unscientific. I don't have any faith in the beliefs i hold. All my beliefs are based on probable truths obtained through observation and logic. I don't have faith that my observations are correct, I don't have faith that I am right. I freely admit that i could know absolutely nothing. Am i religious?

Edited April 6, 2009 by SeVeR

[Bak]

by defining religion, you used another contentious word, faith. In my interpretation, having faith in something is equivalent to having confidence in it. I suspect that you have confidence in your beliefs. Therefore, your definition is faith is likely different from mine.

 

We also seem to define atheist a bit differently. In my definitions you would qualify as an atheist (you don't have a belief that gods exist) and an agnostic (you don't know if a god exists). Most people that I label atheists fall into this category. I challenge you to find someone who claims to know, in the absolute sense, that gods don't exist (I believe this is what you would label as an atheist).

[L.C.]

Religion

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

 

Religious

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religious

 

All religions have to do with a belief and faith of some sort. And as a result (including the 'custom' definitions made already), each and every one of them must in some way have moral and ethical guidelines. Your belief influences and defines in your world what right and wrong is.

 

Ethics

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethics

"that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions."

 

Morals

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/morals

"of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes."

 

 

 

What do you believe is right and wrong? Starting at the very beginning, I could honestly believe that it would be ok for me to kill people (there are people out there like that). That would already be my religion, because you don't know if there is an absolute truth to what really is right and what really is wrong.

 

And because nobody really knows the ultimate global absolute to the rights and wrongs in this universe, people will formulate their own philosophies, deductions, conclusions, beliefs, etc.

 

Without any morals and ethics (values for what is right and wrong), then what are you? Are you dead?

 

I have to agree with your definition of religion, by the way.

Edited April 6, 2009 by L.C.

[SeVeR]

The definition of atheism is a toughy. Even Wikipedia has problems: "Atheism is the philosophical position that deities do not exist, or that rejects theism. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities."

 

In summary:

 

1. A belief that deities do not exist.

2. An absence of belief in deities.

 

These are not the same thing as Bak pointed out.

 

However, if an absence of belief in deities is really what defines atheism then this would include agnosticism wouldn't it? So i will have to stick with the first definition. Atheists have a belief that God doesn't exist. Dawkins spent plenty of time trying to prove that God doesn't exist in his God Delusion book. He even went so far as to misinterpret the agnostics position to paint them with the same irrational belief he has (He divided agnostics into TAP and PAP agnostics, with the irrational belief that we may one day answer the God question or that we never will - to make such an assumption would make the agnostic just as religious as the atheist or the Christian)

[MillenniumMan]

Agnosticism is when you require proof of God or a higher being (big hand coming down from the clouds and smacking the BeJesus out of you)

 

Atheism is the denial of a higher being and creator and that you were a scientific accident.

 

Faith is what you believe and how strongly you believe it to be.

 

Religon is what someone else tells you to believe because you're outnumbered thousands to one.

[PoLiX]

Where do people who don't really know nor don't really care fall?

 

But, religion according to the bible:

In general, a complex of beliefs, cultic practice, and ethical demands in a system related to God or gods. More narrowly, the reference is to Judaism in Acts 26: 5, but the same Greek noun is also used in Col. 2: 18 of the ‘worship’ (NRSV) of angels. Christian faith in 1 Tim. 3: 16 (‘religion’, NRSV) is denoted by a different Greek word. Two sorts of ‘religion’, bad and good, are contrasted by James (1: 26, 27).

 

I also find the 1st paragraph of this so very true:

It's reasonable to assume that if a hundred people were asked to define "religion", a hundred different definitions would be given according to each individual's opinion. Few people are aware that the definition of "religion" actually appears in the Bible. It's very interesting to observe that even when one's definition of religion is based on biblical scripture, usually it conveniently leaves out the last line of the scripture. What is this scripture? Where is it found?

The New Testament passage of James 1:27 reads, "pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

 

While fortunately there are a good number of well-meaning people who truly care and reach out to help the fatherless and the widows of the world, very few observe to keep themselves "unspotted from the world." This last part of the biblical definition of religion is just as important as the first. The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation emphasizes the truth that salvation cannot be earned by good works and the pure religion that's acceptable to God is not complete with the partial fulfillment of his requirement.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 reminds, "for by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

"World" is used repeatedly in scripture to reference and point to the present Earth in which sin entered when Adam and Eve fell from grace. One doesn't have to be a Bible scholar to easily see in scripture that "world", in numerous passages, relates to the temporary and earthly kingdom of the Enemy which is in constant and fierce opposition to the Law of Christ. Even a surface study of the Bible clearly reveals that to live in rebellion against God is to be of the world. Now, since scripture says to keep oneself "unspotted from the world" in order to practice pure religion, obviously attending to the fatherless and widows while remaining of the world, doesn't earn anyone salvation. This is nothing short of attempting to force God to accept only part of what he demands.

 

Me, my only real belief is if I do good and help others, good happens to me. As it always has seemed. My nickname with my g/f's family is "Mr. Lucky" as I always have good things happen to me, win a lot of stuff, and always seem to get the best deals/hook ups on anything. Why? I'm honest and not a dick. Does that mean my belief is a religion? According to the religious people's bible, no. According to myself, no. According to others, maybe, maybe not. Life is what you make it, and you're only here a short time, so enjoy it.

[Bak]

Normally arguments about definitions don't matter, since it's the meaning behind the words that counts. However, in this case, common lines of attack include saying that atheism/agnosticism are religions just like believing in God or Zeus so neither one is more correct or has more evidence than the other. Another related one is that not believing in God takes just as much faith as believing in God, so therefore both sides are equal in some way. Neither of these is the case, so here, the definitions are important.

[SeVeR]

It's bloody stupid to call someone religious if they don't believe in something.

 

You could just create any answer for any question and if someone doesn't have faith in it then they're religious.

 

So no, it doesn't work that way. You don't have to be certain of the opposite belief in order to criticise a belief!

 

Religion = faith = certainty.

 

If you believe that God definitely doesn't exist then you're religious. If you believe that Christians are stupid for saying God definitely does exist then that doesn't mean you're religious.

[NBVegita]

But Sever I would inversely say that you don't have to believe that god exists "certainly" to be religious.

 

I feel religion is a lot like many beliefs, you may identify yourself by a religion simply because you are more inclined to believe in God than to disbelieve.

 

That doesn't mean that if you went to everyone who is associated with a religion that they beyond a doubt believe God is real. In fact I believe it's very difficult for anyone to have a belief containing no doubt.

 

I will still categorize both Agnosticism and Atheism, personally, as religions because they are both concerning beliefs in the existence, or lack there of, of God, which is how I define religion.

[»Lynx]

I think that we should all agree to disagree. This is simply a discussion of definition - I believe that if you're religious about something, you must have a belief in a certain relative deity, strictly speaking of course. However, if you simply have some beliefs or values, then that's what they are exactly. If you, for example, simply don't know whether God does or doesn't exist, and simply sit on the fence of the matter, I think it's fair to say that you do not have any religion. I also think that if you don't believe in any kind of deity, then you also have no religion. But that's just what I define religious as.

 

-L

[Confess]

Lynx, for someone that doesnt have 'faith', you sure defend it (being your views) hardcore.

 

Faith-

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

 

 

You don't make up the definitions, Webster does.

[»Lynx]

Lynx, for someone that doesnt have 'faith', you sure defend it (being your views) hardcore.

 

Faith-

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

 

 

You don't make up the definitions, Webster does.

 

It depends how you depict faith, too. I have no faith in God, or the Bible because the logic that has been portrayed to me in any religion (Christianity, Islam, Catholicism...) has been completely bastardised and has shown all too evidently that these religions are only for a few greedy needs. However, I do have faith in Science, that it provides me the right answers through logic and Math. I also have faith in my cat, that it will eat the cat food I put out for him, and faith in my dishwasher (most of the time) that it will clean my dishes when I turn it on...

 

Don't get me wrong, I have faith, however faith is nothing more than confidence that something is correct. I also have many other invisible things, like Trust, Honor, Pride, Morals, Ethics, Standards...

 

-L

 

Edit: Also, a definition is merely a guide to meaning. The meaning is determined by the individual, how cloudy that meaning may be would only depend on the linguistic skill of the individual.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Lynx