New SSC Biller

[PoLiX]

If the option ever came up, what would you think? I mean, we'd probably have to find some way to transfer a player database, or build the new one from the old. That or just give up our aliases and start over again. Well, the later probably most unlikely.

 

But if it was possible to get the database, and it'd be beneficial to the community in all the new features and additions that could be made, would you ever support it?

 

There has just been a lot more discussion about this again lately, and figured maybe I'd open it into the public's eyes.

[Hakaku]

Well if a new reliable biller was to be provided with all or most zones on board, then I say go for it. But honestly, I keep seeing people try to go for backwards compatibility (for any project that involves fixing something of Priit's) ; I'd rather not have the player database transfered over, so that this would give a chance for both new players and old players to pick up some new aliases.

 

And I'd also vote for getting rid of whoever's currently in charge of username and squadname resets, since as far as I've seen they do pretty much nothing and ignore every request nowadays. Also, automatically-reset-usernames should dissolve the entire squad even if there are still members on it.

 

And of course, provide a limit on the number of squads a single user can create and be part of.

 

I think there's quite a few feature ideas under the Accede forum that could be implemented, and I also think that the ?chat could be updated in several ways:

- Expand the chat # limit

- Perhaps an option to change the # to use the actual chat's name (e.g. techhelp:Player> blah blah)

- Add the option of using the chat's name rather than number (;techhelp;hi!) - not sure if Subgame would allow this though

 

I would say color-code the chats somehow (maybe the numbers/names), but I think that that would be a clientside feature rather than biller.

[Samapico]

Using a brand new database would require a lot of moderation though... We wouldn't want some newb grabbing names like Dock>, priitk, p0lix and ghost ship

 

A limit of aliases per IP should be there in the first weeks to avoid these kind of problems, with a reliable way to override it (sysops needing to register several bots, for example)

 

Identity theft would be a big concern, indeed. Every alias with staff powers should be reserved so the right person could have it.

 

On the other hand, if we can move the old database, we could certainly reset much more unused names than the current system.

[Dr Brain]

I'd switch Hyperspace to a new biller if newbie and test zones are were not denied from connecting to the biller. I've long thought that disallowing fledgling zones has hampered creativity in this game. The security issue is just a sham (there are security issues, yes, but there have always been acceptable solutions). The real issue is that the people in charge don't care to change the way things are.

 

The authorization system for the biller that exists now is a joke. Hyperspace was disconnected from the SSC biller for 8+ weeks (I don't recall the exact number) because not enough people on the council were alive to approve the server change. No one said no, mind you. Just not enough people replied to say yes.

 

You ask what has come of this community? Quite simply, it's killing off its most important resource: aspiring zone owners.

 

If the people on the council truly cared about this game, they'd give up the stranglehold they've got upon it and allow the game to grow again. Maybe that's what spawned Polix's original post. I hope so.

[Hakaku]

@Sama:

Well I already made a few proposals to avoid such problems in the Name Reset thread: http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showtopic=22730

 

Basically:

- Make registration available at first to only a select few, and proceed in a hierarichal manner. Or rather have zones specify all the usernames that should be placed on the no-register/pre-register list, and also place racist and defamatory names on the no-register list. Then (assuming possible), transfer player data from the current biller to the new biller for other requested names, before eventually fully allowing the general public to register any other names.

- Edit: Unless of course it's easier to do the reverse, and transfer all the player data first, and then do mass deletion of inactive or horded usernames and squads.

 

In other words, it wouldn't completely compromise the safety of current zones and usernames by making the switch in a single night, but it would give time for zones to prepare and adjust beforehand. And like I said, if the username PriitK still has powers in TW and no one has removed it since, then that's the zone's own problem for not removing him after so many years of inactivity and compromising their own security (I think someone did manage to hack his username in the past if I'm correct -- so it's not to say that the current state of the zone is any safer).

[CRe]

I agree with Hakaku.

 

However if we do have a new biller, try creating "chat owners" where they could invite, add, and whatever people to a chat. Like Hakaku said, if a user still has authority in a zone, and they have never removed the user even after a long time of inactivity, they are compromising their own security. And as Samapico said, a limit to usernames should be instated. I would not do IP but rather do email because there are siblings, roommates, etc. that sometimes play aswell. Still a limit should be put forth.

[»doc flabby]

I'd switch Hyperspace to a new biller if newbie and test zones are were not denied from connecting to the biller. I've long thought that disallowing fledgling zones has hampered creativity in this game. The security issue is just a sham (there are security issues, yes, but there have always been acceptable solutions). The real issue is that the people in charge don't care to change the way things are.

 

I developed a system a couple of years back using private/public encryption that made it possible to authenticate clients to zones without the zone needing to know the users password...It can't be used with continuum of course...but it might be worth a look at if you are looking for some inspiration.

 

I can describe how it works in detail here.

 

Biller has private key.

Clients come with public key

 

Clients encrypt password with public key + salt

Zone forwards encrypted password to biller.

Biller decrypts password and checks it matches

Biller returns to Zone players UserId (which is then used to track the player)

 

This avoiding the zone ever coming into contact with the players password

 

Of course this system relies on keeping the biller private key secret.

 

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.p...lease_id=578122

 

Its currently implemented as a HTTP web service

[Dr Brain]

I'd switch Hyperspace to a new biller if newbie and test zones are were not denied from connecting to the biller. I've long thought that disallowing fledgling zones has hampered creativity in this game. The security issue is just a sham (there are security issues, yes, but there have always been acceptable solutions). The real issue is that the people in charge don't care to change the way things are.

 

I developed a system a couple of years back using private/public encryption that made it possible to authenticate clients to zones without the zone needing to know the users password...It can't be used with continuum of course...but it might be worth a look at if you are looking for some inspiration.

 

I can describe how it works in detail here.

 

Biller has private key.

Clients come with public key

 

Clients encrypt password with public key + salt

Zone forwards encrypted password to biller.

Biller decrypts password and checks it matches

Biller returns to Zone players UserId (which is then used to track the player)

 

This avoiding the zone ever coming into contact with the players password

 

Of course this system relies on keeping the biller private key secret.

 

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.p...lease_id=578122

 

Its currently implemented as a HTTP web service

Only works if you don't have zones being part of new player registrations. Otherwise, yeah, public key cryptography and md5 hashing with salts is the way to go for authentication.

[Chambahs]

Might as well try it, its not like we're going to lose anything from it.

[»freakmonger]

Basically take some of catid's/other dev ops billers and give it access to the SSC Biller DB.

 

You would have chat owners, squad co-captains (can do everything to a squad except dissolve it or kick the squad captain), etc. Its been a few years since I've played around other Billers, but I do remember these features being a part of them. Also an upgraded banning system/built in alias system for zone staff.

 

As far as "starting over" with names/new DB..nah I'd pass on that. Although I would like to see a huge purge of squads/playernames.

 

I think if a squad hasn't had a member log in within 2 years then the squad should be automatically dissolved and other players are able to take it.

Edited March 30, 2009 by freakmonger

[L.C.]

Snrrrub is working on Isometry and a new MERVBot-clone. He intends to get Subgame/AS3, Isometry, and this new MERVBot to communicate as natively as possible with each (like a triforce or one of those "trinity" things). He has already been able to hijack parts of Continuum without setting off the CRC alarm. Although I would like to know what Snrrrub thinks about this thread. D:

[Dav]

I say do it. I think the database does need to be shifted over though, but this would also be a great time to have a clean up.

 

A new DB can only harm the current player base IMO as names will vanish very quickly. Even an Cap by IP will not stop the most determined from snapping up everything ans slapping a price on it.

[»Lynx]

Realistically, Priit isn't going to give away the information keeping his antiquated, obsolete yet precious biller away, however the council have said on the SSCForums (ref for those who have access: http://www.sscouncil.com/forum/index.php?topic=40.0) that they will be happy to accept some kind of bridge, where both billers can coincide *provided it doesn't harm their security* - and probably, I'm predicting, their sovereignty.

 

The way I understand it is, that if Priit gives up the billing information he's got a huge risk on his hands - if that information gets into the wrong hands, a huge part of this game will be effectively destroyed, so therefore maybe we should try and take some smaller steps towards a solution?

 

If we have a bridged biller, at least we will have something that is in constant development *working with* the SSC, instead of completely against it. Although, as much as I'd like to see the SSC abolished and something a little less elitist to be put in place, I do believe that leaving the SSC as a whole will just damage the game.

 

Way back when, it was easier to get population from non SSC zones, however, way back then, there was a larger and much broader player base, now however, most players are all talking over chats and are only known in one name, and like being known. The prestige of being good doesn't really apply anymore, like the prestige of being staff, being an administrator of something, being the creator of something...

 

However, ultimately a bridged biller would be very hard to implement, although I'm pretty sure Snrrrub would have the know how and skill - would he really want to do something which would ultimately be obsolete very quickly? Maybe when bigger stakes were at hand, this would have been an excellent idea, however now I'm slightly uncertain. Typically, we have one opinion with the current amount of development we actually *finish, and that's to have Isometry biller cleaned up, and finalised, and have the information that SSC biller has retrieved over the years moved over to it, and cleaned up.

 

But 'lol' to the chances of that happening, then we have to consider all the politics and ego stroking that goes into place before anything like this happens, but heck - we can all hope, right?

 

-L

Edited March 26, 2009 by Lynx

[TeroH]

The main concern with the biller, if it's still effectively the same codebase Priit used back in the day, is user login information exposure. It doesn't have much value, but it's the central authentication point of the game and if it gets damaged, that could very well be the final blow to the game.

 

A bridged biller might work as a solution. It's an interesting concept, I can see how one would work and it might be quite implementable. Of course there are always other ways... a couple of phonecalls springs first to mind

 

Lynx, you made references to the situation of SSC. How is the politics of Subspace these days? How big is the userbase? Number of zones?

[»Lynx]

As to the bridged biller, in all likeliness, that will also never work however I believe that in cases such as this, smaller steps are often the best way of getting a solution ready.

 

I know nothing of the SSC, or it's politics. I don't talk to anybody who makes a difference anymore, so all I can tell you that the number of zones has dropped significantly, and the new zones - IMO, aren't worth a second blink. But then, I'm a pretty pessimistic.

 

-L

[Dav]

people keep going on about being against the SSC here but will that really be the case.

 

We may work against priit but to pull this off the SSC will need to support us, It would also be essential as a rift in the community would do irreparable damage.

[Emit]

Game needs to evolve, as in giving the power back to the people(younger generation) to control things instead of a bunch of old timers with no time on their hands =( Edited March 27, 2009 by Emit

[Dav]

having old timers will less time isnt a bad thing. There is a lot to be said for experiance. But yeah the newbies do need a route in.

[»doc flabby]

I really don't see how changing SSC or making a new biller will improve the game.

 

The biller is not the problem. It works fine, and has done for years....We are trying to fix something thats not broken....

 

The problem with SSC is not the tecnology, its the people running it and the processes, trying to join SSC seems to be a slow and laborious process. The people who control ssc are very hard to get hold of...and theres no clear application process for zones/servers wanting to get added to SSC. I don't care how old the players are...we just need more active people running things...even if they login like once a week to check up on things that would be a vast improvement over the current situation.

 

We would do better to put the resources for the new biller into developing a new client (i don't care which client...I know most people here favour discretion, and it is the most advanced) but this is where time and effort should be expended not to solve a non-problem.

[Dr Brain]

The motivation for new billers (I think) comes from the perception that the SSC application process won't change. People work on a new biller so that they *can* change the application process. They add technological features to the biller to keep themselves entertained (it's what programmers do, after all).

 

So, let me rephrase your conclusion: We would do better to put the resources for the new biller into getting access to the current one.

[»Lynx]

So, let me rephrase your conclusion: We would do better to put the resources for the new biller into getting access to the current one.

 

Agreed.

 

-L

[Dav]

The other benefit of having a player run biller is that it will not become a limiting factor to development of future clients should new features be required int he future.

[TeroH]

Back in the day there were talks about having a two level billing hierarchy, one for the established zones and second for new zones. The idea behind the second one was to be a sort of a read-only billing proxy to which every new zone could connect - so that you could use your existing SSC username on any new zone, but not, for example, create new logins.

 

Priit was never willing to give his client to the hands of other people, and it is very, very undertandable after all the difficulties that the SSC encountered - cheats, hacking attempts, DDoSes, the like. Yet at the same time it was clearly a risk to place too much on his shoulders, and he used to be a very busy guy with all the other projects he worked on. I know that he communicated with at least some other developers back then, but I don't have any idea how much he's involved with things these days.

 

I fully agree on that the community has to be player run. VIE was our finest example of what can happen when all the control is concentrated in one place, and that one place suddenly loses its interest. But at the same time, things have to be run in a coordinated fashion, and that can only work inside a fairly small group. Public discussion should definitely be encouraged. The balance is difficult to keep - the team "running things" needs fresh blood, because as we've established earlier in this thread, people move on, but at the same time people don't really want to work with people they don't know or want to work with. SSC used to choose the Council people based on their activity - zone admins, hosters, etc - but I don't know how things work now; the general tone of the conversation implies that not much happens.

 

And future clients... well, I'd say a capable programmer can create a new client relatively easily, a bunch of capable programmers can probably do it faster. It would definitely help to have co-operation of some people who have most of the knowledge regarding the tech that's used to run stuff now. It is possible to arrange that, I'm sure.

 

I think Dr Brain was spot on a few posts above. Now how to achieve that goal?

[»Lynx]

The read-only secondary biller was what I mentioned earlier, however there are some things that can make that difficult. We don't know the layout of database that Priits biller is using, or even what kind of database, so we can't design something until Priit gives us some information about that, and he will most definitely need assurance that it won't be a threat to the security of the SSC biller - and even if that were going to happen, we'd need to be let even near the current database, and considering Mackieman isn't even allowed, and he's on the SSC... and only going to be connecting for a scores website... Well, I think that concludes the problem.

 

As for developers, a biller that can do the job... that's not the problem, it's just the elitist fashion that this game has always has that's diminishing the creativity and expansion of something that could still be very good.

 

But, as for the SSC - they do get new people here and there, and those new people are active... Well, not active developers, but can be contacted.

 

Freakmonger

BlueGoku

Hoch

 

and their fanboy

 

Aceflyer

 

and who ever else, if there is anybody else... It's just a shame that they're the kind of people who, don't get me wrong, are interested in change, but the kind of change that comes only too late. You can't really blame the SSC as a whole though - as much as they love to claim that the SSC is actually democratic in the sense that they vote for things, ultimately if Priit don't like it - it's not happening.

 

-L

[PoLiX]

The getting of scores access is a pain in the butt, but GS may finally be able to get it now for me and his project.

 

I do have the Schema for the scores table, and really, it is as you'd expect it to be. No doubt the rest of the biller db is the same, but that's another situation.