What has come of this community?

[PoLiX]

A few years back, I posted saying that in just 3-4yrs using the alias PoLiX I went from a joe smoe player to running and working on most the major websites, having run lots of SSC Zones/Zones period, staffing lots of major zones, helping lots of zones, etc. I mean use to, players got involved in the game SOOO much.

 

Now, as me and Joe (swift) have discussed many times on the phone, it has turned into a "wait on one guy" type of thing. Noone steps up, noone tries to help, etc. Use to had I posted I needed help with SSCentral, or needed a design, people would be posting all sorts of content, designing stuff, etc. They wouldn't just be like "I'll help" and wait on me, or once I request their help, kind of disapear or back off. I work 40+hrs a week, and I just can't do it alone anymore.

 

It is really what has made me lose sooo much motivation, that even the smallest let down, I just give up. If people can't be reliable and help rebuild, why should I do it for them.

 

There use to be LOADS websites with LOADS of traffic and staff and people always willing to help. Subspace.net, Subspacehq.com, SubspaceZone.net, and SSCentral.com just to name a few. Any time any of us needed help, we had it in a heart beat. Hell, SubspaceDownloads.com (created from downloads.subspace.net) and SSForum.net we're made on a wim, and the community jumped in to help them and make them popular and supported. Now a days, if the same was done, the sites would die in a week, if not less. I mean, I have been searching everywhere for someone who can actively design for us. I lack the time anymore, and did it for too many years. Anyone else we've ever picked up just dissapeared on us. Yeah, ss websites aren't a paying job, but I know many ex-webmasters who include the sites they ran in their resumes, and Archive.org really helps finding and showing them at their prime.

 

You guys say "There is no SS drama or news". There is tons of SS stuff to talk about. Fuck talking about it just on a zone's forums, thats how we use to do it. Granted through time the group who said "Who cares, post it on your zone's forum" or "Noone cares here" we're the ones who posted the most, and chased a lot of people away no matter the damage control we did. But any news is SS news. You guys want a news site, and yet what do you expect to be posted there? General subspace news... So what is wrong with posting that in this forum.

 

IE: EG started doing old map day again, come check it out.

 

I mean anything can be posted in here, but the lack of SS stuff really kills things.

 

So if you really want to save this community, save your time and money outside, and focus on helping what is here before trying to bring more people into an unstructured dying game.

 

Just my 2 cents

[rootbear75]

So if you really want to save this community, save your time and money outside, and focus on helping what is here before trying to bring more people into an unstructured dying game.

Some of us can only do that. Make cards, pass em out, etc. because we lack the skills necessary to help in other areas. Like myself. I work nearly 8-11 hours a day, 5 days a week, and my off days always consist of a day of chores and a day to catch up on some much needed rest. I just lack the time anymore and what I did this last weekend is about as much as I can do to contribute. I would like to contribute, but I don't know how else, besides donating a few extra $$ i have lying around. (Not trying to sound defensive... just tired as fuck right now, can't think of any other way to say this... pulled an all-nighter trying to get anonymous projects caught up)

 

It's the sad truth that I thought would be later rather than sooner: The ss gamers of yesterday are becoming too busy with other things to continue onto developing. And when they do develop, [i notice that] they get shit from players "Oh, it's unbalanced" "Oh this site sucks ass" etc.. but then you don't see them creating anything either? This among other things has made me realize that now it's time to move on, and i'm pretty sure you have all seen me on here less and less as time goes on, and while i always will keep the friends i made here, it's going to be time for all of us to finally move on....

 

 

think i might've started rambling at the end there... sorry

Edited March 21, 2009 by rootbear75

[Chambahs]

Well, I honestly think the only people who really helped, arent interested in SS anymore. And then you've got other people, who would like to help, but cant. If I knew how to design shit, and code and stuff like that, sure, id make it my hobby and help out. And im sure im not the only one. Face it, SS is pretty much dead. We've got like 15 populated zones, and almost all of them are filled with vets/dedicated players; and most of the pop is in spec. This game used to be a GAME, now, (being realistic) its an IRC with graphics.

 

What happend to creatix? Last I heard he was willing to do all the design in exchange for his zone to be coded. And you also have to be thankful Polix, at least there ARE still a handful of people that are willing to help. There COULD be nobody at all. I dunno, just speaking my mind.

[No_Remorse]

R.I.P. subspacehq.com, subspacezone.net, subspace.net, subspace.warstrike.com, subspace.ds98.com, einexile's minefield, possum's zoner

[PoLiX]

He did design it, and then he could never really explain to me clearly what he wanted.

 

Our times never worked out, and when he'd ask me to come in the zone, I'd normally be at work. And times I'd suggest didn't work for him. So he sent me files, explained what he wanted, but was too general about it, and I had no clue what the zone was about to understand. He told me to "just play the zone and i'd figure it out" but never did. Then I asked him for some more graphics, and never got reply. Was hard to fix a design when the text wasn't working right since I didn't have the files it wanted, or the fact his photoshop was a different language than mine so it wouldn't find the fonts right sometimes too. Then he decided to turn his zone into ASSS, something I never played much with. So after Trained spent a whole year trying to help get anything outta him also, we gave up. I didn't have the time to keep trying to screw with things and find fonts that worked/figure out when i'd have the right font he sent me, photoshop wouldn't think it was the right one, or the look would change, even with the same settings. So yeah.

 

I've been suggested to talk to RiiStar, and Cre> said he'd talk to larry. And I know larry keeps trying to im me when I'm at work, so never can talk to him, but yeah.

 

And I know people would like to help, but the ones who can do what is needed won't. That is really my point there.

[»Purge]

Agreed with root and Chamb.

 

Even the developers now are busy with other personal things that take up most of their time. Many of the old developers and players are in universities and others have moved onward with their life. People grow up.

[»Lynx]

I bought a Mac, spent hours and hours trying to get Continuum to work on it, managed to get a connection but then managed to reverse all my work again. When the next version of Darwine comes out though, I know that I can get it working. Also, if I used Crossover (from Codeweavers) we could 100% get a mac version, but that means that people would need to pay for Crossover to play Cont, which is something I'm 100% against.

 

Then, tried getting asss to compile on Mac, others have managed it (I think Goldeye, and another dude), but I had no avail there to give a walk through. Can't really be involved in much if I can't be a part of the game. I've offered my help on SSDL, but received no reply so... Meh.

 

But, I don't really blame that on losing interest in any kind of development. Even when I was on Win, and actually putting some time into development I found I'd be working on the map, settings, management and coding of the zone on my own, then I might get an offer for help, but the help would be on the terms of the person helping only, so it would end up being a very imbalanced zone, or something that I just didn't personally like much at all.

 

However, I have to admit, when you work hours and hours, are diplomatic and have a few helpful friends, creating a zone and getting it some population isn't really that hard, but when i look at the 'up and coming' zones now, I just think they're not really worth a wank. Also, I find that any kind of communities that build up, inevitably self destruct with hate, envy or hearsay. The only reason I still post on this forum, is because it's in my favorites and I'm used to clicking it. If it weren't for that favourites bar, I would have nothing to do with Subspace.

 

In my dealings, I've found a few honest people who I can trust and enjoy working with, but I've also found a lot of arseholes who ... Bleh, I won't go into this.

 

I'll just say thank you CRe>, Rick James, Snrrrub and anybody else who were helpful.

 

-L

[larrythehamster]

Cre> said he'd talk to larry. And I know larry keeps trying to im me when I'm at work, so never can talk to him, but yeah.

 

Indeed... I've tried to get hold of you so many times I feel I know your MSN away message personally...

 

As you know, I'm always willing to spare some time for any development work you or any of the SSCommunity needs... Just a case of catching me and knowing what you want.

 

I think to be honest, the fact there are fewer sites/zones now is kind of an advantage. When there are hundreds of sites/zones, it just means efforts, population, work etc becomes split and they all just fade and die slowly as subspace itself fades.

 

Now is not a time for competativeness, new secret ideas, seperate plans or whatever... This is the time when the SS Community on the whole needs to come together. The fact efforts can now if properly organised be focused onto fewer zones and sites just means those efforts can be greater to whats left.

 

So yeah, if any of you do need my *ahem* expertise for your zone or SS project, just catch me in game (?message larrythehamster) or hit me up on msn (liverpool6735[at]hotmail.com]

 

=]

[tcsoccerman]

What happend to creatix? Last I heard he was willing to do all the design in exchange for his zone to be coded. And you also have to be thankful Polix, at least there ARE still a handful of people that are willing to help. There COULD be nobody at all. I dunno, just speaking my mind.

 

Creatix and I are still working on SSCC the CompleX, but we both are busy with stuff. Recently we set some goals and are both working on them, and once those very goals are met we are hoping to finally open the zone.

 

Maybe the lack of zone development is because of the (seemingly) spur of continuum-clone client development. Discretion, STF (sord of a clone) are both still steadily active, are they not?

 

The only reason I still post on this forum, is because it's in my favorites and I'm used to clicking it. If it weren't for that favourites bar, I would have nothing to do with Subspace.

 

I second that.

Edited March 22, 2009 by tcsoccerman

[FMBI]

You could rename this topic "Why is SS dying?" and it would fit in perfectly with every other topic of that nature.

 

It's a combination of demography, retarded people running the game, and a shitload of stupid staffers who drive their zones into the ground. That, and the fact that the SS player base is racist, abusive, very clique-ified, and resistant to anything new.

 

If you solve all of those problems, then voila, the community comes back to life - if you don't, then the community goes downhill.

 

 

PS - Bring back the spam forum. "All the old players/posters will come back! We haven't seen any decline in traffic / posting! etc, etc!" Mm-hmm...

Edited March 22, 2009 by Finland My BorgInvasion

[Dav]

I think the real problem is all of this happened when much of the community had much less going on in their lives then we do now.

 

What this game really needs is a new wave of teenagers with plenty of spare time and years of commitment ahead but we have failed to attract them, mostly because that generation of gamers expect all of the modern features from their games rather then the retro appeal of this one.

I really hope these projects can get finished, and things can take a step forward here, as pol said things have defiantly become "someone else will do it" around here.

[»doc flabby]

I think the real problem is all of this happened when much of the community had much less going on in their lives then we do now.

 

What this game really needs is a new wave of teenagers with plenty of spare time and years of commitment ahead but we have failed to attract them, mostly because that generation of gamers expect all of the modern features from their games rather then the retro appeal of this one.

I really hope these projects can get finished, and things can take a step forward here, as pol said things have defiantly become "someone else will do it" around here.

 

Well hopefully the recession will help our game Nothing like bored unemployed people to help out a free game

Edited March 22, 2009 by doc flabby

[Hakaku]

Maybe the lack of zone development is because of the (seemingly) spur of continuum-clone client development. Discretion, STF (sord of a clone) are both still steadily active, are they not?

Not really, there's pretty much only Bak working on the Discretion client, and 3 people working on the STF project. Zone development is an entirely separate sphere from those clients, and the reason why there's a lack of zone development is directly tied down to the fall of SubSpace as an entirety. Owners lack time, lack motivation to continue developping often because they're the only ones working on the zone, they're bored, aging, and have other things in life that are more important. There used to be people applying to be staff all the time, but nowadays finding people who are willing to actively staff is rare, for many of the same reasons: lack of time, lack of motivation. Being staff simply doesn't have the same prestige as it once used to have, and with a diminishing overall population and a general sense of despair and hopelessness for the game, this is becoming more strongly felt, especially within smaller zones but not excluding the larger ones. In Deva alone, I went from being a mere player to ish developper to a sysop within what to me was a very short time, and I'm now pretty much understanding what causes all the other zones to be abandoned : changing maps, adding news, hosting events, hosting a bot, fixing modules, maintaining websites, get players in the zone and play, etc. It's a really burdening task especially when you consider that I've an entire life (uni, job, friends, family...) outside this game.

 

But don't get me wrong, I don't hate managing a zone, I rather enjoy certain aspects of it. And one thing that motivates me is the hope that one day a client such as Discretion will take over as the main game client. For the sceptics, only three years ago it was seen that ASSS could never become in any form the more dominant server, but nowadays it has pretty much superceded the use and development of bots+subgame, with the exception that Paleolithic zones such as TW will probably never make the switch unless the rest of SS ditches them. And I think that it's in the best interest of the entire community that major changes be made to our client and gameplay. Even Furcadia, by technicality the longest continuously running MMO, has received more (minor) updates then Continuum has and can still boast of having a more vibrantly active community than we have, since the developpers constantly promote the game. It basically boils back down to what Doc Flabby once said before : "the main problem is the people in the SS community who want to do good things are powerless, and the people in charge don't care." and Chambahs : "And then you've got other people, who would like to help, but cant.".

[PoLiX]

Personally I think if more sites added the nav bar, it'd help us connect even more. But so few seem to care to add it, or even want to. I brought up the idea a long time ago to Mackie and MGB, and they we're down for it, but nothing ever came of it on their part. Maybe I need to speak with them about it again or something.

 

SSForum will also install IP.Converge with the release of 3.0 which will allow any forums to connect to us and share user information/databases. No this won't be universal control or administration, all it will do is allow them to do is have their basic profile information automatically entered into another forum without the whole registration process needed. Should benefit us all, as people won't need to register 20 different places and on 20 different forums.

 

Now, I'm not saying all forums and sites have to do this, but it will benefit us and a few other sites greatly. Login info between forums, CMS scripts, and even custom coded scripting can be shared. Bans, Posts, Profile Information (Beyond username, pass, and e-mail) will all be seperate. Also will allow 1 portal page with information and links to all the sites and forums sharing info.

 

This is just one of many ideas and projects on hold waiting on IPB right now, but will be completed.

[PoLiX]

Since it has been mentioned and asked for, and now I have it 100% bug free, the code for the navigation bar is as follows:

 

<script language="javascript" type="text/javascript" src="http://network.sscentral.com/nav.js"></script>

[NBVegita]

I think the real problem is all of this happened when much of the community had much less going on in their lives then we do now.

 

What this game really needs is a new wave of teenagers with plenty of spare time and years of commitment ahead but we have failed to attract them, mostly because that generation of gamers expect all of the modern features from their games rather then the retro appeal of this one.

 

Exactly.

[Chambahs]

Also, thats another thing too. Think about it, when did you want to staff in the zones? When did you wanna make your own zone and get on SSC, and do all that crap? When did you have a bunch of free time, had nothing better to do than to retile a map for 12 hours?

 

Answer: When you were younger.

 

Though its not entirely the answer, think about it. When did you have so much time on your hands, unemployed, no responsibilities? When we were all younger. Everyone that did something for development (coding bots, making maps, hosting zones, doing gfx), were the main people that everyone ran to.

 

Ask yourself, who would you go to if you needed a map? First name pops into my head is Anaconda/Legas. Bots? Explody/k0zy/zim/dustpuppy/catid/etc. Graphics? Thunderjam, T4, WS.

 

The problem is, everyone used to run to those people to ask for development. Now that most of them are gone/dont care about this game/dont have enough time anymore, theres nobody really to run to. Nobody stepped up and took their place. Back in the day, how many new zones were there? Fucking popping up like crazy out of nowhere every 5 minutes. And when the zone owners would make a zone, they needed pop, all their SS friends checked it out and went back to their home zones, so they invited their other non-ss friends. Thats how new pop was made. Well, not entirely, but a portion of it.

 

Now, a person wants to make a zone, and 95% of the time, all the new zones will be depended on a bot. The person runs to everyone, asks for the bot to be made, cant get it made, dont want to learn how to code it themselves, and the zone either is opened half-assed and dies, or it doesnt even get started.

 

Again, these arent the main reasons, but, -they are- reasons. Theres no new generation of developers.

 

Name the people who make bots/maps/setts/host/code. Now, how many of them have been playing SS for less than 2 years? ... Something to think about.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Chambahs

[CatGoesMeow]

Hey. This is k0zy. Chamb referred me to this topic.

 

For those who can't remember who I am, I'll sum up what I used to do.

I started playing SS when I was realy young. I think I was about 14 years old.

Later I started a Zone called Oblivion, when I got to know most of you guys (Chamb, Death+, Legas, Rowen, Dard, SOS, Nintendo64 (CycleOfVenom), uh... what was the nick of Mike... Clown?).

For my zone I needed several bots. I bugged quite a few people but nobody would make one for me. That's when I started to learn how to code. My first bot was the infamous Anit-Warp bot, who checks the area based on a bitmap file. (It wasn't really much work... I just combined two existing bots.)

After my zone failed I wrote a tutorial on lvz, the Lvz Ini Editor (LIE), my own lvz builder CLC and many more bots for other people.

 

Here's what happened then: Many people bugged me to make bots for them... TOO many people. So I stopped coding bots, but were still actively helping people for years(!!) over at the Server Help Forums. I coded one or two bots for Chamb every now and then, though.

 

So... that was all while I was 16 and went on until I was about 21. I'm 24 now, about to get a german master degree in computer science and I'll do even more studying at university.

I have to agree with Purge and Chambahs. People moved on. I am one of them.

Edited March 22, 2009 by CatGoesMeow

[RiiStar]

Or there are people like me of the same age (24), that are hanging on...

But life at our age is completely different in retrospect to what we could and were able to do even a few years ago.

We have jobs, social responsibilities, wives, gf's, college/university etc etc...

 

For the few that still try to help out, it's become hard for those individuals to shoulder all the weight for so long.

It's hard even now to find willing people to help with development even when you offer to help up skill them.

Or there are those that are trying to help and go about it the wrong way and tread on toes and ego's which kill their chances with those people...

 

I have not been working on TW's websites for long... 4years maybe? And I'll admit that there are more skilled people than me.

Im lucky that a few of them are still around helping me with them! Flabby, Ardour, Arobas+ (who are currently still around).

 

But already I'm getting worn down. It doesn't help when the general pop also can't comprehend what goes into what you do for them

and shit all over your efforts. And for the most part that's not their fault that they don't understand something they can't/wont/don't do...

But a web page is just images and text right? That's ez... why is it taking so long?

 

I think that also adds to the reasons why people don't "step up" when they notice how efforts go to waste on people...

And why some of our greatest innovators move on to a degree also...

 

Edited March 23, 2009 by RiiStar

[Stibbymicto]

Most of the time, i wish i could help other then just passing notecards around. I did some posters and stuff and posted them around school. Those posters took me 9+ hours to draw, color, design, and get permission to place around school. Sicne then, I've actually had 3 people join hyperspace and another 5 join into Extreme games.

 

Again, I really wish I could help code or write up scripts for the game but i don't know how. I would love to learn, andI tried to recently, but, it just didn't stick and I didnt have a teacher I could go ask questions when I was confused. I can only do python, html, and some small C+ stuff, which makes me good for absolutly nothing at all.

 

EDIT:: gabba gur gur taught me how to make bots through java a few years ago. Chambs, but for the record, noone wants to teach anyone here fucking anything. I ask around in the ss community for help with coding bots or w/e and I get blown off. I have to go to the forums to even ask and hope for an answer. It's jsut stupid.

 

Awhile ago I asked -SOMEBODY- on Hyperspace for help coding a bot and got blown off, everyone I asked was either "too busy" or "get lost, kid" Just about anyone I asked about coding online was "Your so fucking stupid"

 

Noone wants to help, not because they cant, but because they dont feel like it.

its not because the best programmers ever have left or dont play anymore, it just that the new generation doesn't even care.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Stibbymicto

[Dr Brain]

I think the game lives from the top down and dies from the top down. The problem isn't that there aren't enough new players or that old players are leaving. Those are symptoms, not the fundamental problem.

 

The problem is stagnation. The game isn't growing, because the people holding all of the power don't care anymore. My personal opinion is that it's too hard for new, creative zones to start up. Why bother going through all the hassle of creating a zone if no one is even going to join your server because you don't have SSC access? And of course you can't get SSC access unless you personally know someone who's willing to break the rules on your behalf. It's easier to move on and do other things with your life.

 

Small zone owners drive this game, and their souls are being crushed one by one. That is what is happening to the community.

[Hakaku]

Since it has been mentioned and asked for, and now I have it 100% bug free, the code for the navigation bar is as follows:

 

<script language="javascript" type="text/javascript" src="http://network.sscentral.com/nav.js"></script>

Good to know it's bug free, I've added it to deva's website. Hopefully other zone websites will follow suite.

 

Ps, can you fix Discretion's link to point either towards the subforum or towards the sourceforge page? And also remove the Star Warzone website from the list since it's a dead link.

[RiiStar]

Since it has been mentioned and asked for, and now I have it 100% bug free, the code for the navigation bar is as follows:

 

<script language="javascript" type="text/javascript" src="http://network.sscentral.com/nav.js"></script>

 

I added it to trenchwars.org - but i'll point out something that might need a tweak?

 

document.writeln('#main select, #main option { padding: 2px; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 9px; font-family: Verdana; color: #000000; }');

to this ?

document.writeln('#main select, #main option { padding: 2px; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 9px; font-family: Verdana; color: #000000; background-color:#FFFFFF; }');

I manually added this to tw.org cos the menu dropdowns had a black BG from our CSS instead of White so you could read the text/options

 

<style>
#main select, #main option {
 padding: 2px; vertical-align: middle; font-size: 9px; font-family: Verdana; color: #000000; background-color:#FFFFFF; }');
}
</style>

[Sass]

Big and medium zones have become cults. What newbie would want to get involved only to get harassed and beat down?

 

The best thing for any new development is to abandon any relationship to ss/continuum altogether and get a fresh and disconnected start.

[»Lynx]

Big and medium zones have become cults. What newbie would want to get involved only to get harassed and beat down?

 

The best thing for any new development is to abandon any relationship to ss/continuum altogether and get a fresh and disconnected start.

 

I'm starting to like you...

 

However, as poetic as that sounds, it doesn't work so well in practice. We've changed from something that everybody would willingly play for hours and hours, to something that is less advanced than most flash games and a complete niche.

 

As for the Bots, the AS3 stuff, all of that... It's not a complete requirement to a good zone, too many new people jump in and think... In order to make this place great, I'm going to *need all of these features, however they forget that the core, the backbone of the zone if you wish is most important. If you've got crappy settings, that are unbalanced and a crappy map, your zone won't be the best, however if you do have both those criteria then your zone will operate, and all you need from then on in is a good staffing team, and a steady flow of development.

 

Generally, the coding in SS is simple, be it ASSS, Py or bots in C++ (I've not touched TWCore yet, because I don't like Java), and after a few hours of reading you can get the general gist. From what I've seen, people just try to jump straight into the deep end... For some reason. Then, the most recent mistake that I've seen a lot (and I even just made) is allowing yourself to go over your scope of work. Initially, I just wanted to do the map, and coding in the zone. No problem, however then our website guy backed out... Another job. Then, our settings guy backed out... *Another job. Then our graphics guy disappeared... Get the drift? One could argue that I never done enough as the owner to keep them motivated, however, I would answer back that I done all I could, and I've seen it happen before, and it's nothing new in general for this kind of thing to happen to a zone that is fresh out of the oven.

 

The best ideas I'd seen were SSDev, and other help communities with active developers who were ... there to help... they just failed. Hugely. Epicly... There were loads of developers, who in general were there to help, however there weren't enough rewards, and nobody who was a clear motivator and leader stepped up and started to delegate. But, that was just my personal view of why SSDev failed.

 

Hrmm, this bit may not be too ... fair.. or whatever, but let's just look at the most up and coming zone... ResoLs one, whatever it's called... Digital Core?? I enter the zone, and know immediately it's going to fail, for a bunch of reasons... I won't be as blunt to list them, because I've already subtly gone through why it.. isn't great with ResoL, but maybe if SSDev had a good bit of organisation, they could help fuel things that the zone would benefit from. However, even if this were the case, I am sure that there would be owners saying ... 'No, that's not how I want it' then there'd be egotistical experienced developers saying that the owners ideas were noobish, which takes me onto my next point...

 

People should be making their own zones, not demanding people do the work for them. If they have good ideas, they can express them. If they really are good, I'm sure they'll be made. Otherwise... well, I'm not gonna spell it out.

 

-L

Edited March 24, 2009 by Lynx