Obama

[NBVegita]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/22/pre...sion/index.html

 

Pelosi is also pushing for an investigation into the Bush administration's handling of the Justice Department, while Obama and his aides say there are other priorities besides focusing on the administration they are succeeding.

 

"I think that we have to learn from the past, and we cannot let the politicizing of, for example, the Justice Department, go unreviewed," Pelosi said last weekend. "Past is prologue."

 

Before becoming president, Obama made it clear that investigating the Bush administration wasn't a priority.

 

That is refreshing. I think that has been a major problem with the democratic controlled congress from the start. They've been more worried about trying to dig up skeletons and dirt than actually fixing real issues. Not to say that under the right circumstances investigations shouldn't be had.

 

Honestly it's refreshing to see that Obama is actually worried about real issues, not simply trying to make the democrats look good or the republicans look bad.

[SeVeR]

Yea, what's done is done. I just want to forget about Bush and let Obama get on with important issues. Lets use this thread to list things he's done already that we approve of.

 

1. Closing Guantanemo in less than one year.

2. Set up a website to get input from the public about what issues are important to them.

3. Pledges to be completely open about government spending.

[AstroProdigy]

Notice that whenever crimes by the government aren't properly investigated and prosecuted it gives excuses for future governments to do that and more. It all builds up if its allowed to. Funny enough some of the Nixon/Ford era officials who saw a lack of serious persecution of Nixon who only got caught by some fluke of having incriminated himself on tape learned from those mistakes. What they learned was that if you're more careful you won't get caught instead of learning that if they commit crimes they will get caught and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Who were those officials again? Oh yeah Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz. Oops. What happens next time when Bush era officials come into power with another conservative government. That is the consequences to the future. It's like letting all the criminals go free and hoping no one will try it in the future. It boggles the mind how much people will ignore the past and hope history won't repeat itself without trying to make it not repeat itself.

[»D1st0rt]

Are you kidding me? She spent two years preventing investigations and now she wants one? Fuck Pelosi, get that bitch out now.

[FMBI]

Agreed with Astro. It's very tempting to just move on and be happy and carefree, but the past has shown that these problems always turn up again, every couple of decades at the most - usually when the existing economic system starts to take a beating - and so, assuming Obama's recovery plan doesn't work out that well (or can be painted that way, as Krugman and others fear), we could very soon see a new generation of wannabe Pinochets pop up and try to expand their own power at the expense of our already-weakened democracy.

 

I'm not for war crimes investigations, but I think the possibility of a truth & reconciliation committee should be taken very seriously. Even if it caused several years of domestic turmoil (as has happened in South Africa and other countries), it's well worth it in the long run, both to prevent the above-mentioned petty dictators from getting into power, and to improve international relations. Keep in mind that, although South Africa is still very segregated and unequal, the mere fact that they were willing to work to change the situation was enough to earn them massive amounts of goodwill, even after "Garlic" Mbeki. If Obama really wants to put the US back on top of the world, I think a T&R C is definitely the shortest distance between here and there.

 

 

Also, did anyone notice that we have 3 essentially parallel threads running right now?

[Hate The Fake]

obama already screws up with abortion funding. sigh

[PoLiX]

How'd he screw up? He gave it back? Something he promised to do?

 

OHHH, your one of them. nvm.

[AstroProdigy]

Agreed with Astro. It's very tempting to just move on and be happy and carefree, but the past has shown that these problems always turn up again, every couple of decades at the most - usually when the existing economic system starts to take a beating - and so, assuming Obama's recovery plan doesn't work out that well (or can be painted that way, as Krugman and others fear), we could very soon see a new generation of wannabe Pinochets pop up and try to expand their own power at the expense of our already-weakened democracy.

 

I'm not for war crimes investigations, but I think the possibility of a truth & reconciliation committee should be taken very seriously. Even if it caused several years of domestic turmoil (as has happened in South Africa and other countries), it's well worth it in the long run, both to prevent the above-mentioned petty dictators from getting into power, and to improve international relations. Keep in mind that, although South Africa is still very segregated and unequal, the mere fact that they were willing to work to change the situation was enough to earn them massive amounts of goodwill, even after "Garlic" Mbeki. If Obama really wants to put the US back on top of the world, I think a T&R C is definitely the shortest distance between here and there.

 

 

Also, did anyone notice that we have 3 essentially parallel threads running right now?

 

Speak for yourself. If lying about a blowjob is enough to almost get you impeached then causing the suffering of millions and getting hundreds of thousands killed for something that you knew was bullshit and for ulterior (not American interests) motives justifies a war crimes tribunal. I'm sick of the only people getting prosecuted being the losers. You might as well not prosecute at all if people think success will make them immune. It's like telling a carjacker that if they manage to actually get the car home then they're free to go.

[NBVegita]

Talk about beating a dead horse.

 

First off, Clinton wasn't almost impeached for lying about getting a blowjob, it was lying under oath that got him impeached, which was more just a technicality than anything else.

 

Again, as I've stated before, you've got this novel idea of a war tribunal, the problem is you need this funny thing called evidence. It makes no difference how many people "know" something, without evidential proof, you've got nothing. Just a hint too, if this proof was attainable, Bush would have been impeached/arrested by now. The only chance of anything resembling proof would be in Bush's presidential library, which no one can access with out both Obama's and Bush's approval (even though he is no longer president). And don't even think about trying to pass a law dictating that you wouldn't need the past president's approval because that would never pass. If that did pass the republican's would attack the Clinton library over whitewater documentation, which would hurt not only the democrats, but Hillary.

 

Honestly, stop beating a damn dead horse.

[AstroProdigy]

The funny thing is you need this funny thing called an investigation to get evidence. You yourself say that it's refreshing that Obama's not touching this issue, but if you don't touch it then you can't get evidence. It defies all logic to say there should be no investigation to find proof and in the same breath tell people you can't do anything without proof. I don't give a damn about Hillary she's shown herself to be willing to do or say anything needed to win no matter how immoral the same way as McCain. If this is about Obama not wanting to cause himself this kind of trouble that you're arguing then fine, but don't pretend its right or that its not what should be done.

 

Obama just changed US policy to no longer allow torture, but even in doing that he's saying the President has the right to decide if we torture and there are no consequences. When the next Bush comes into power and builds on what Bush did to make an even worse disaster you'll again say "stop beating a damn dead horse" assuming he leaves power and at this point building more authoritarianism into Bush's system might just be enough to end democracy and you won't even be free to say what you want. By your logic there really is no point to knowing history because it's just "beating a damn dead horse" and we should instead look to the present and future. WW2? A damn dead horse. The Cold War? A damn dead horse. The Holocaust? A damn dead horse. Who cares really?

[NBVegita]

What do you honestly think will happen if you managed to dig up anything on Bush?

 

First off I find it highly likely that Obama would pardon Bush, similar to Ford and Nixon, but do you really think getting caught is going to stop future presidents? They're just going to be better at hiding it. Do you really think no president since Nixon has done any of the dozen of illegal watergate issues? Look at ALL of the presidential scandals throughout history. Do you think that no president in the future of the U.S. is going to get head from an intern because Clinton got caught? There are HUNDREDS of issues more important and pressing than trying to run a committee to see if you can dig up evidence that you haven't been able to dig up in 6 years. Not to say that investigations never need to be run, but at this point no one and that is no one has found any information to incriminate Bush, it's time to move on.

 

Also you might not give a damn about Hillary but you bet your ass every democrat in our political system does. Not only is she one of the most powerful democrat figures in the country, she's also a woman. They've already got Bush out of power, a resounding Democratic control, why would they want to bite their nose off to spite their face?

 

building more authoritarianism into Bush's system might just be enough to end democracy

 

And lol. As I've stated there is only one way to end democracy and you would need ALL 3 branches of government in perfect synchronization to do so. No president, does, will or can have the power to do so.

 

By your logic there really is no point to knowing history because it's just "beating a damn dead horse" and we should instead look to the present and future. WW2? A damn dead horse. The Cold War? A damn dead horse. The Holocaust? A damn dead horse. Who cares really?

 

Does it hurt? I mean a lot? You take things off the deep end so often, you must be in a lot of pain. You're honestly trying to compare the Bush administration to 3 of the 5 most devastating events in the 20th century? Not even to mention that they are not even remotely related to this situation.

 

At least Obama has some common sense.

[Sketter]

It is not ideal to have those that commit crime to answer for it?

What are the odds that Bush will even get punished if anything is found? Well you need to start somewhere. Obama is the message of "yes we can" and "change" how much he can do time will tell. But he is off to a good start. So is it alright to turn a blind eye when something seems fishing and deceiving?

Oh he's the president, we can't investigate him.... why?

 

In my opinion presidents should not be immune. If they are then you just opening up to a lot of abuse. And that has happened over the years.

People got to take away this silly notion that the president is above all. He works for the people of the country. Isn't that your the democratic way? Isn't that why you put him up there? Then shouldn't he answer for the people he works for?

 

If you take away the immunity then you can start to take away the abuse. By not looking into it then are you allowing it. It's like watching a murder happen and you walked away and said nothing, then the murderer goes free cause no one can testify. Better yet, lets take your approach and not even have an investigation because that is the message your sending.

You can't say that you don't think there shouldn't BE an investigation, but then at the same time then say lets look at more important issues. You sympathize cause you felt you should, but lets not take care of the problem, lets look over here.

 

Yes there is big problems, but doesn't everyone? When isn't there one? When would be the most convenient for you.. and your mother, and your dad, and, the lady next door, the guy down the street, the post office man, the school teacher, and the rest of everyone else. When do you think it's convenient?

 

Either you take care of it, or don't. But don't' throw excuses.

 

If Hillary gets her balls busted then so be it. And if they are that worried, but concerned for the future of America, then perhaps they should pass it so that only future presidents can be prosecuted.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Sketter

[NBVegita]

It's not a matter of being prosecuted, it's a matter of what they (could) find in the libraries.

 

The problem is you're going to waste precious time and effort into further investigating something that has been attacked from all angles for 6 years. If you were brought to court with a crime, your trial wouldn't last 6 years. After this long the only chance you would have at finding any evidence would be in Bush's own presidential library, which is inaccessible without Bush's own consent.

 

I'm not saying in any way shape or form that the president is above the law. What I'm saying is that after 6 years and with the recession, job loss, environment and wars we're fighting, pulling at straws trying to find some little piece of evidence that may or may not amount to anything is not worth the time it would take right now. I mean after 6 years of investigation into many of Bush's acts and officials, what, I mean what do you honestly expect to find now?

[FMBI]

obama already screws up with abortion funding. sigh

 

Might as well get this out of the way, since we're in a 3-way tie on the other issue.

 

Obama hasn't done anything with abortion funding, he's just restored funding to groups that help with abortions as part of a larger agenda involving reproductive health, contraception, and sexual education.

 

Bush denied funding to these groups, even though they're usually the only ones performing the afore-mentioned non-abortionary functions. Which means he's probably responsible for thousands of AIDS deaths, among other things. Hurrah for Christian zealotry.

 

Zzz.

[AstroProdigy]

What do you honestly think will happen if you managed to dig up anything on Bush?

 

First off I find it highly likely that Obama would pardon Bush, similar to Ford and Nixon, but do you really think getting caught is going to stop future presidents? They're just going to be better at hiding it. Do you really think no president since Nixon has done any of the dozen of illegal watergate issues? Look at ALL of the presidential scandals throughout history. Do you think that no president in the future of the U.S. is going to get head from an intern because Clinton got caught? There are HUNDREDS of issues more important and pressing than trying to run a committee to see if you can dig up evidence that you haven't been able to dig up in 6 years. Not to say that investigations never need to be run, but at this point no one and that is no one has found any information to incriminate Bush, it's time to move on.

 

Also you might not give a damn about Hillary but you bet your ass every democrat in our political system does. Not only is she one of the most powerful democrat figures in the country, she's also a woman. They've already got Bush out of power, a resounding Democratic control, why would they want to bite their nose off to spite their face?

 

building more authoritarianism into Bush's system might just be enough to end democracy

 

And lol. As I've stated there is only one way to end democracy and you would need ALL 3 branches of government in perfect synchronization to do so. No president, does, will or can have the power to do so.

 

By your logic there really is no point to knowing history because it's just "beating a damn dead horse" and we should instead look to the present and future. WW2? A damn dead horse. The Cold War? A damn dead horse. The Holocaust? A damn dead horse. Who cares really?

 

Does it hurt? I mean a lot? You take things off the deep end so often, you must be in a lot of pain. You're honestly trying to compare the Bush administration to 3 of the 5 most devastating events in the 20th century? Not even to mention that they are not even remotely related to this situation.

 

At least Obama has some common sense.

 

Well Nixon never got a serious sentence. That's the problem in the first place. Officials directly from the Nixon/Ford administrations learned from this and became leaders of the Bush administration. There's a difference between Nixon's vice president of the same party, Gerald Ford, pardoning him and Obama of the other party with no indebtedness to the Bush administration pardoning Bush.

[Tigron-X]

What crime is needed to be investigated again?

[NBVegita]

I believe they are talking about trying to bring Bush up on war crimes for invading Iraq primarily.

[Tigron-X]

lol... well, they're not going to put the man who re-gained monetary control over Iraq on trial.

[NBVegita]

That coupled with the fact that if you bring Bush to trial you have to bring Spain and the UK too, and I don't think anyone is ready for another world war.

[»Ducky]

Another world war would fix the economy though

[Tigron-X]

Another world war would fix the economy though

 

I'm assuming you're drawing such a hypothesis from the events commonly associated with the advent of World War II. However, it's a myth that the advent of World War II ended the Great Depression. Roosevelt commandeered the entire population and put it to work making bombs, tanks, and battleships. As a result there was full employment and everyone of course got paid. However, there weren't any consumer products to buy: no candy bars, no women's stockings, no new houses, no new cars, and so on. The standard of living was actually lower than it had been during the 1930s.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[»Ducky]

WWII ended unemployment and here we have an unreasonably high unemployment rate that needs fixed.

Sounds like fun times to me.

 

But on a more serious note, you know without having a sarcastic comment delved into because of your boredom.

Nothing will come of the bush thing, completely wasted time. Everyone who spent 8 years targeting bush has nothing else to do now. They'll get bored.

[Tigron-X]

WWII ended unemployment and here we have an unreasonably high unemployment rate that needs fixed.

 

 

Dear Government,

 

I am but a simple man beast. I need you to herd me like sheep and whip me like cattle. While you're at it, would you hold my hand too?

 

Sincerely,

 

US Citizen

[NBVegita]

Dear God,

 

I am but a simple man beast. I need you to herd me like sheep and whip me like cattle. While you're at it, would you hold my hand too?

 

Sincerely,

 

(Insert religion here)

 

Funny parallel eh?

[Tigron-X]

Dear God,

 

I am but a simple man beast. I need you to herd me like sheep and whip me like cattle. While you're at it, would you hold my hand too?

 

Sincerely,

 

(Insert religion here)

 

Funny parallel eh?

 

 

No, because it's not beyond governmental entities to use relgion to gain jurisidiciton over others. Simply said, if you don't know who you are, I can become your God.