Jefferson

[NBVegita]

I don't usually post things from chain e-mails but I think this could spark a good discussion.

 

Jefferson in some cases could be called a prophet.

 

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.

Thomas Jefferson

 

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

Thomas Jefferson

 

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

Thomas Jefferson

 

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

Thomas Jefferson

 

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

Thomas Jefferson

 

No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

Thomas Jefferson

 

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Thomas Jefferson

 

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

 

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

Thomas Jefferson

 

 

 

Very Interesting Quote

 

In light of the present financial crisis, itʼs interesting to read what Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

 

'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, the n by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'

 

 

Discuss.

[Dr Brain]

I disagree with Jefferson on many things, but none of these quotes fall into those areas. Very nice quotes.

[Bak]

Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong.

Thomas Jefferson

 

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.

Thomas Jefferson

 

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.

Thomas Jefferson

[rootbear75]

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.

Thomas Jefferson

tru dat

[Aceflyer]

Agreed with most of the above except for:

 

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Thomas Jefferson

This assumes that the existence of liberty is predicated upon the unending continuance of an epic war between those who would defend liberty and those who would seek to infringe upon others' liberty. This is a rather pessimistic view of things. Even if the assumption were true (and it could be true or false depending on how Jefferson's statement is interpreted), it should be possible to refresh the tree of liberty with the sweat of patriots and tyrants, and not necessarily their blood.

 

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

Thomas Jefferson

While seemingly a nice idea in theory at first glance, in practice it's a horrible idea because then basically everyone would find reasons not to pay their taxes. In fact it's also a bad idea in theory: if one were to assume that people were completely honest and virtuous about what they disbelieve or abhor, then with this idea you would be rewarding ignorant bigots and punishing enlightened patriots.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Aceflyer

[SeVeR]

He appears to have been a wise man. What book of his would you recommend?

[FMBI]

I had a massive post all typed out here the other night, but then I accidentally lost it and decided not to post here, until you guys started posting here again. So here goes.

 

 

The above quotes are all cherry picked to support the modern-day, infantile, American libertarian movement. I managed to find several reasons to invalidate each of them in the modern day before giving up (as above mentioned).

 

Also, Jefferson is highly overrated, even when you aren't grabbing random quotes that seem to back up your position. A great many of his philosophical wanderings led him off into the woods somewhere without a compass, it would seem. Most of the Frenchies from that time period were a heck of a lot smarter than him.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Finland My BorgInvasion

[NBVegita]

I managed to find several reasons to invalidate each of them in the modern day

 

Please elaborate. I'm not so sure that the "modern day" is fundamentally different than it was 220 years ago.

[AstroProdigy]

Well the vast majority of us can't just support ourselves on farms because the fundamental changes of industrialization, even if they can be reversed smoothly and peacefully, would mean going backwards in living standards. Therefore the notion that we should all just be left alone no longer apply because our lives are built on a level of interdependence that the founding fathers couldn't dream of back then. This is the basic Ron Paul fallacy as I like to term it. It's the belief that 220 years ago wasn't a fundamentally different time and that the laws that were applicable there can be applied today just because they were so nice back then. That system also only worked because of the truly monumental expanse of land that only needed to be dusted off of those pesky natives that made the notion of every man having his own plot of land possible.

[SeVeR]

Exactly, when Stalin made collective farms in Russia he was looking to the future.

[AstroProdigy]

It's not that the solution is forcing everyone to work together even more. It's recognizing that people need to work together and then making the rules to make this as humane as possible. According to libertarians the government should only be there to protect us from each other, but the current financial crisis shows that there are new ways for us to hurt each other and if you really want to do this you'll need to drop the Ron Paul embodied, strict, predetermined ideology of just leaving the markets alone. Edited January 5, 2009 by AstroProdigy

[NBVegita]

No where does Jefferson say that people should not work together.

 

There is a difference between people working together to accomplish a goal and having the government run that goal. Jefferson also noted a need for some regulations but not complete government control.

 

As for the financial crisis this entire thing would resolve itself if there was NO government bailout. The government is handing out billions of dollars to these industries who already screwed stuff up and are not giving them rules about how to use it (at least strict rules). If these companies collapse, there will be a sharp recession until other companies grow to fill their spots. As of now the government is putting a fresh coat of paint over something that needs to be knocked down and rebuilt. But ultimately this is an argument for another topic.

[FMBI]

I kind of agree and kind of disagree, Veg. In the case of the financial industries, where the government directly aided and abetted their impossible growth rates, and is now feeding them hundreds of billions of "our" money, yes, it is a bad idea - after all, they haven't used any of that "necessary" $700 billion we gave them, and the sky hasn't fallen.

 

However, when it comes to the real economy - things like the Big 3, manufacturers, mid-sized contractors (who work with States), etc, you do need to keep them going, because the long-run cost is infinitesimal compared to the cost of letting them go out. Operating at, say, a 5% loss for a few years before getting back on your feet and repaying government loans is way better than going out of business and giving some mega-conglomerate one more fire-sale acquisition it doesn't give a damn about. Just ask Russia.

[AstroProdigy]

There's a difference between making deals between the government elite and business elite without any consent from the population and having a properly regulated cooperation among the population. Also in case you haven't noticed no matter what bs is said about unions being to blame for the fall of the American auto industry the mainstream media refuses to point out that the rest of the first world has had a huge advantage over us. I'm talking about "evil socialized medicine" that countries like Japan have and that has allowed their auto companies to not have to deal with the insanely overpriced health insurance costs that US companies have. It turns out deregulation often makes companies less competitive so you can't even justify it against a backdrop of widening wealth gaps and a choking of the middle class.