the truth continued...

[Tempest]

Heehee, looking forward to it already

 

I've been speccing a whole lot cos of uni application stuff and will be kinda busy 'til late January.

 

(Sigh)

[Delic]

"Tell me' date=' how am I not objective? What do you see me as? A "Jav League Player" or a "Pub Player" or a "Newbie" or what?"

 

The point I was making here is that no matter how much you've played, or play, it's still impossible to be objective and it seems arrogant to claim anyone can know the 'truth' about the zone. As long as you are one person, and involved in the zone, your opinions can only ever be subjective - an opinion, as seperated from fact.[/quote']

 

Of course, but what I posted in the thread weren't opinions, they were facts.

I ask you again to tell me exactly what you didn't agree with on the staff thread.

Quote me.

And no, it's definitely not impossible to be objective. Not for me anyway. Anyone who's only subjective is ignorant.

 

"Dude' date=' we've lost more than 50 players since the fück-ups began."

 

Aye, in comparison with the old n/s pub, that much is true. I still don't get why we started changing the map and sets when so dramatically when only a few modifications were necessary. Alas, I see no way of magically restoring 17th to the old map/sets, especially with our newer players being more and more acclimatised to our current map/sets. Remember Halloween? The old players loved it. The newer ones didn't.[/quote']

 

I've said this about a million times: changing back to old settings/map would be a very ignorant move, I agree.

What we needed in the first change was as you said, a few modifications on the settings, but mostly just a new map.

But I guess since Nurples and Zeke never made maps they just did the easiest thing that they could get recognition for...

And yes I remember halloween. I hated it as well. During halloween I played in pub less than a minute.

Halloween wasn't a real test. I can understand why the newer players didn't like it. Nobody likes it when everything changes all of a sudden after you're used to a certain environment.

But you have to remember that newbies don't think about how the shipset works as a whole.

You have to look at the big picture.

 

"And when I say "players" I don't mean just the number next to the zone name before you enter' date=' I mean loyal players who were a part of 17th."

 

Here's a difference between our viewpoints. I don't care about older players who were here when we had n/s maps and old sets. Don't get me wrong - veterans are an important part of the zone - but I care about them in that they are players, and only players. As such, I believe newbies and veterans should be treated equally in this regard. Growth, after all, is of prime importance - and gaining two good newbies in exchange for a vet seems perfectly fine to me.[/quote']

 

That would be very foolish.

It is always best to have loyal players than just players who could quit any second.

The loyal players are the one who make the zone. They shape the community, not the players who just come in here and leave some minutes later.

"Growth is of prime importance" you say. And I couldn't agree more, but gaining two newbies in exchange for a vet means gaining two players who could quit playing after a week for all you know, unlike the vet who will always be here.

 

"Staff didn't do anything to attract those players' date=' they just came."

 

Perhaps, but staff will always play a part in _keeping_ those players. It's the map, sets and service that matters, and we don't seem to be doing too badly in that respect. Occasions where a ?help or ?cheater are disregarded are very few in my experience.[/quote']

 

Wrong. Staff do not have to do anything to keep players in the zone. If anything, (the past months anyway) staff has been driving them away. I know because I've seen it with my own eyes.

There's only a few good moderators in staff.

 

"17th was a lot more fun in the past' date=' I'm sure that anyone who remembers will agree with me."

 

I've been here in the older days. You know that. And yes, I do find it more fun. The problem is that newer players probably won't, and it seems fine to accept that and get on with what we have. If you do prefer the older settings, perhaps you should speak to Vile about his current plans. They seem to coincide somewhat.[/quote']

 

The newer players would probably agree with me if they played when I did too.

And honestly, newbies will play whatever you give them to play with.

They don't think about all the different things that makes the gameplay, they don't know that much. All they know is what ships they like to play in most.

The reason why I think that the "old shipset" was more fun is simply because it works as a shipset should work. For 17th, it was the perfect shipset.

Each ship had a specific mission and was specialized in specific areas, and the shipset as a whole was very balanced.

The current shipset is a joke if you compare.

And I'd rather not even mention Vile anymore. It's clear to me that everything he does, he does for his own sake, so even discussing with him would be a waste of time.

 

"And that's why the zone hasn't grown but fallen apart' date=' it's like dead now, nothing is going on, it's boring."

 

Remember when you asked me, above, which category of player I would put you in? I would have chosen 'Pub Vet' and 'Jav Vet'. But not 'Newbie'. And there we have a problem.[/quote']

 

As 17th Pub is right now, the newbies will remain newbies forever. No joke. The skill level in 17th Pub is so limited that newbies won't be able to develop their skills.

 

17th may be boring to vets who've been here since oldmap and are used to the old style of play - but the newer playerbase seem to be coming' date=' staying, growing, and can you say that the newbies we recieve find the zone boring?[/quote']

 

No. Because when you're new, nothing is boring. As I said, that "new playerbase" would be here no matter what.

And the reason to why it's boring to vets is because vets have played everything that can be played, and now they can't even play as much 17th as they used to play because nobody comes to events.

Eventually, newbies will get tired of 17th Pub and since there won't be anything more that we can provide them, they'll leave.

 

Ah' date=' and a question: if you could do anything with 17th, staff, pub map, pub sets, etc. - what would you do?[/quote']

 

First of all I would fix staff. Everyone who doesn't do what they are supposed to do and act the way a member of staff should act would be removed.

Eventually I would test the newold gameplay. The way 17th was made to be played, but in a modern form with more action and possibilities.

[GhettoSmurf]

omg temp, where are you when im on? cuz i havent seen a single -*BAD WORD*-!!! and whenever i request it (which iv stopped doing...) i just get ignored. why do i always miss the good events?

[DaKillaRoach]

Note

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-*BAD WORD*- cant be hosted by ER's at the moment cause Motherbot is dead at the moment

 

and as far as I know we have 4 ER's around.

ER>Kentai is... wel he is a newb. Sorry but he is f-ing usless lol

ER>bowl i never see online

ER>naedhaha hosts alot of things and is very active when he can get on the net

 

and I have been hosting a little, but my stupidly big lag problem doesnt enable me to host as much as I like, but I do host some smaller events like speedball and race at the moment

[Tempest]

"And no, it's definitely not impossible to be objective. Not for me anyway. Anyone who's only subjective is ignorant."

 

Perhaps we differ on how we define objective and subjective:

 

"this staff does not function like a staff zone is supposed to function."

 

That is an opinion. It may or may not be truth.

 

"People who are in charge of staff, aren't real players. They are people who stopped playing as much because they can't get better at the game, so they join staff for more excitement."

 

Again, an opinion. Not an objective truth.

 

It _is_ impossible for any single player, in terms of discussing the topic at hand, to be objective. The above are opinions - it seems impossible to me for anyone to claim to understand and be able to speak for the entirety of staff as you do and still claim it as fact.

 

But this seems to me to be a pedantic point. Shall we leave it as it is?

 

"I've said this about a million times: changing back to old settings/map would be a very ignorant move, I agree... Nobody likes it when everything changes all of a sudden after you're used to a certain environment."

 

I'm not sure exactly what your views are on this point.

 

"It is always best to have loyal players than just players who could quit any second."

 

First, you acknowledge growth as the primary objective for the zone. The only way for the zone to grow is via newbies. Now, there is another difference in understanding between us: when I said 'two newbies', I should have clarified the following things. There are two forms of 'newbie', as it were. The first are those who come, play the zone, and will perhaps quit after a week or so. There are others, however, that come, play the zone, and get involved with it. Eventually, the latter group develop into 'vets'.

 

Now, you seem to be dealing entirely with the first group of 'newbies'. I was referring to both. A zone can never grow without an influx of newbies, and it seems difficult to distinguish the two groups without the benefit of hindsight. Thus, 'newbies', whose presence is the sole factor by which growth can be measured, are of the utmost importance.

 

Therefore, as long as number of dedicated newbies coming in > number of veterans going out, I will maintain my current stance on the zone.

 

Oh, and veterans do leave. Even when it's not due to zone settings. They move on, as all players do. They're simply 'newbies' who've stayed for a certain period of time.

 

"If anything, (the past months anyway) staff has been driving them away."

 

Yet again, I'll refer to the 'equation' above.

 

Hmm. Now you state:

 

"For 17th, it was the perfect shipset.

Each ship had a specific mission and was specialized in specific areas, and the shipset as a whole was very balanced.

The current shipset is a joke if you compare."

 

But also:

 

"changing back to old settings/map would be a very ignorant move, I agree."

 

So, then: what do you propose?

 

"As 17th Pub is right now, the newbies will remain newbies forever. No joke. The skill level in 17th Pub is so limited that newbies won't be able to develop their skills."

 

You're measuring them by your definition of skill. The definition of skill changes as the zone itself changes. If you're saying they won't be as skilled in duels, or leagues or whatever, then perhaps. But they will certainly be more skilled at playing the current public map, with public sets.

 

"and now they can't even play as much 17th as they used to play because nobody comes to events."

 

Agreed. That's starting to get really, really annoying.

 

"Eventually I would test the newold gameplay. The way 17th was made to be played, but in a modern form with more action and possibilities."

 

That sounds a lot like what Vile's currently planning.

[Tempest]

GhettoSmurf:

 

Bah! Play more 17th!

 

Alas, what Roach said is true. We can't host -*BAD WORD*- now since MotherBot is down. MS2, however, remains a possibility.

[Delic]

Sorry I've been too layzie to read all the long posts ehehheehe just read DKR's and I'm amazed how he knows more than most, I mean he's relatively new and still knows that much ;o

Again, it just shows that it doesn't really matter if you've played here for 5 years or just 1, it's about the level of understanding that you're on.

 

You think of all the people we have lost' date=' loyal friends and people we got on with, think of everyone we have gained... I need to say no more on that one. Yes we need newbies more than we need veterans, their should be a 2:1 average at least, thatswhat makes the veterans, the pros, the experianced seperated.[/quote']

 

True... every zone needs newbies. But "newbies" aren't just one group of people like most seem to think lålz

The zone will always have newbies. The issue here is what we provide the newbies so that they will stay and develop.

And some people seem to think that we have to choose either "the veteran's path" or the "newbie's path" (current 17th).

They think that if they handle things how veterans want them to be handled, the newer people will be upset, and if they keep handling things how they're currently being handled, the veterans will stay upset.

That whole way of thinking is wrong.

First of all, you can't classify players as "newbies" or "veterans" as if all newbies think the same and all veterans think the same.

You're either smart or you're dumb, it's all about the level of understanding that you're on, it doesn't matter how long you've played.

A veteran is someone who has learned from his experiences. And to be honest, there's only a few people who have.

I can count the number of the real veterans who're still around with one hand.

So I mean, there is no "veteran's way" or "newbie's way", there's a right way, the 17th way, or the wrong way, the way they're running the zone now, totally confused without knowing what to do, if they even thought that something needs to be done in the first place.

[Delic]

"And no' date=' it's definitely not impossible to be objective. Not for me anyway. Anyone who's only subjective is ignorant."

 

Perhaps we differ on how we define objective and subjective:

 

"this staff does not function like a staff zone is supposed to function."

 

That is an opinion. It may or may not be truth.[/quote']

 

If it's an opinion, and it's truth, isn't it also a fact then?

There's only one way that a staff is supposed to function.

Staff's job is to serve the players, to fulfill our needs as much as possible so that we can enjoy this game to the fullest.

It's also staff's job to keep the zone growing so that players don't get bored.

If it fails to do so, it doesn't function as a staff is supposed to function.

Isn't that a fact?

Now you might be thinking that staff simply can't make everyone happy, and that is true, but it can atleast attempt to make as many players as possible happy.

But they can't. Because they don't even know what being a player means and how a player sees things.

 

Objective

impartial, unbiased; existing outside of the mind; relating to or characteristic of a direct object (Grammar); expressing or dealing with facts

 

Subjective

existing in the mind; personal

 

"People who are in charge of staff' date=' aren't real players. They are people who stopped playing as much because they can't get better at the game, so they join staff for more excitement."

 

Again, an opinion. Not an objective truth.

 

It _is_ impossible for any single player, in terms of discussing the topic at hand, to be objective. The above are opinions - it seems impossible to me for anyone to claim to understand and be able to speak for the entirety of staff as you do and still claim it as fact.[/quote']

 

What are you talking about? It is true, I KNOW because I know these people.

I'm not speaking "for" anyone, I'm simply telling you what I know is true, what I know is true.

Weather they admit it or not doesn't matter, the truth will remain the same.

And as I said, "people in charge", those who make the decisions. I'm not talking about the whole staff.

To me it's obvious that they're not real players. They don't understand the game and all the details in it.

 

Take Vile for example. How often do you even see him play?

He was the league guy for awhile, do you know how many 17th Parallel leagues he has even played?

ONE. Unless you'd classify "LSS" and "League" as real leagues, heh.

 

I see it as it is, the truth, the facts.

 

If I said that Vile shouldn't be SysOp because he is incompetent, THAT would be an opinion, but the fact that he is incompetent will remain the same no matter what people's opinions are.

(This is just an example).

 

But this seems to me to be a pedantic point. Shall we leave it as it is?

 

If you wish so' date=' sure.

 

Ähhh I might reply to your points later if I have the time... and will [img']http://www.hitemup.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Greased_Lightning]

-=(GL enters again to do his best to once again subvert the interests of the zone for his own interests...and to lighten the atmosphere)=-

 

Uhhhhhh truth is more of a philosophical point, what YOU think is a fact but is not set in stone...like "I cut down the cherry tree" may be the truth but who knows? It's not a stone fact.....

 

If we're gonna argue, use the right terminology:

Opinion - your own personal belief based on whatevers

Truth - something generally accepted as a fact but which either has not or can not be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt

Fact - Proven thing, no debate

 

and when dealing with anything on the internet, which really isnt there, it has no substance and cannot be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt...Therefore...NOTHING ON THE INTERNET IS REAL!!!! (Truthful, but not factual statement)

 

I hope that this has cleared up the debate for everyone that no one was debating about.

[Delic]

The truth is truth, nobody can touch it.

Opinion = at!@#$%^&*ude; outlook; formal judgement or estimation.

 

Uhhhhhh truth is more of a philosophical point' date=' what YOU think is a fact but is not set in stone...[/quote']

 

Wrong. Truth is truth no matter what anyone thinks or says. Now, some people might misunderstand the truth or simply don't see it, but it's still untouchable and will remain the same.

 

like "I cut down the cherry tree" may be the truth but who knows?

 

Georgie knows if it's true or not' date=' and if anyone saw him cut down the cherry tree then that person knows that it's true too.

 

Hmm. Now you state:

 

"For 17th, it was the perfect shipset.

Each ship had a specific mission and was specialized in specific areas, and the shipset as a whole was very balanced.

The current shipset is a joke if you compare."

 

But also:

 

"changing back to old settings/map would be a very ignorant move, I agree."

 

So, then: what do you propose?

 

What we needed in the first change was as you said' date=' a few modifications on the settings, but mostly just a new map.[/quote']

 

As I said, the newold gameplay. "The old way, but in a modern form".

That means, the final version of old shipset (before Nurples put his dirty fingers on 'em) and a new map, which was all we needed in the first place.

 

"As 17th Pub is right now' date=' the newbies will remain newbies forever. No joke. The skill level in 17th Pub is so limited that newbies won't be able to develop their skills."

 

You're measuring them by your definition of skill. The definition of skill changes as the zone itself changes. If you're saying they won't be as skilled in duels, or leagues or whatever, then perhaps. But they will certainly be more skilled at playing the current public map, with public sets.[/quote']

 

Of course they will, but that's the thing, ANYONE would, because of the simplification of pub.

 

"Eventually I would test the newold gameplay. The way 17th was made to be played' date=' but in a modern form with more action and possibilities."

 

That sounds a lot like what Vile's currently planning.[/quote']

 

Vile says a lot of things, Tempest. And he's been "planning" since years. I'd be surprised if he does anything he says he'll do successfully.

 

Well I don't think I have anything more to say here, or if saying it has any meaning.

[NBVegita]

Opinion: o·pin·ion (-pnyn) n.

 

1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

2. A judgment based on special knowledge and given by an expert

3. A judgment or estimation of the merit of a person or thing

4. The prevailing view

5. Law. A formal statement by a court or other adjudicative body of the legal reasons and principles for the conclusions of the court.

 

Truth: (trooth) n. pl. truths (troothz, trooths)

 

1. Conformity to fact or actuality.

2. A statement proven to be or accepted as true.

3. Sincerity; integrity

4. Fidelity to an original or standard.

5. a ) Reality; actuality

B ) often Truth That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

 

Fact(fkt) n.

 

1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

2. a ) Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.

B ) A real occurrence; an event

c ) Something believed to be true or real: a do-*BAD WORD*-ent laced with mistaken facts.

3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime

4. Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence

 

Just to clarify that a bit further

[000]

i say get me back on staff ... that will solve alot

 

 

pernille hurry up and get borded of 17th like all the other sysops

[Telson]

pernille hurry up and get borded of 17th like all the other sysops

Im not bored, btw learn how to spell 000

[Zetirix]

This thread is about... 5 posts shorter than what the "discussion" thread about me was... heh... the more things change, the more they remain the same... best of luck with you all. I can't be bothered to read this whole thread, but the basic ideas are still around. While at my limited time as Head Sysop, regardless of what some think, I took an active role in making a better pub with actual players, and the "playing staff" as such some staff don't play at all. I've been away until today for close to 5 months, and when I left, there was a sweeping updraft to get things done. I come into the zone, and I downloaded a new lvz file, with some now tiles, and I think to the bane of the zone, the same map I pioneered to save. I thought things were going to change? What's up guys? And I'm with Reload, bring back KOTH, and ditch the points dealy... I was driven to make it a faster paced higher kill zone in pub, wasn't the our agreed vision what... 2 years ago?

 

- Z

[reload]

pernille hurry up and get borded of 17th like all the other sysops

Im not bored, btw learn how to spell 000

Telson, what a perfect self-portrait you have as an avatar

[NBVegita]

Ohh hey there Z.

 

Yeah I was just talking about you yesterday, how it seems that vile has come to take the exact same scrutiny that you did so many months ago.

 

How's it goin man?

[DaKillaRoach]

You want to make it a fast paced high kill zone? Wasnt the whole point of 17th to be a ball/flagging game with moderate kills and high skill. Instead you have achieved your dream of high kills, but at what cost? Hey make it more high kills and turn it to one hit zone instead? This is one of the reasons why we should go back to the old format of balling/flagging system.

[Naedhaha]

Ok going back to page one DakillaRoach you sent me no note pad telling me to host and i was trainned just fine. And what would be the point in the ''note pad'' that you suposedly sent me if we have the Mod protocal ???? Unless of course you havn't read it.

And in my opinion staff are doing great. Lots of events are being hosted and every thing is running smooth. And we have another ER (ER>kala) that is new, he has been trained and is doing great on his first day he hosted over one hour of 2v2, among other thing aswell. For a first day on the job that is exellent.

[reload]

Lots of events are being hosted and every thing is running smooth.

ROFL! Every time that I enter 17th, I press Escape + A. This gives me a list of all the arena's that contains players. 9/10 times, it doesn't show an event, and we have to use the ?host command to get the ER>'s to work. Lots of events hosted? Rofl!

 

Everything is running smooth? Vets are leaving because of Vile, SBL is delayed because of Vile, people are complaining..yeah..really smooth..

[SeVeR]

Hmm i can see Vile's Signature now..

 

SSCU 17th Parallel Sysop, Site Co-Administrator

Zone Infastructure/Settings Coordinator

SSCU 17th Parallel Scapegoat

 

On Topic (maybe): 2v2 bot looked really good but its apparently still in the works.. i hope its out of works soon. Thelma is the rumble bot i think.. but none of the new players know that and probably not many of the vets do either. SBLJav will be fun when it gets started but we REALLY need a new better map for that (i'm tempted to give it a go). What happened to weekly -*BAD WORD*- and Mothership? is that still going? Lets set up a dueling ladder too..

 

Pub looks very slick now but its the same old map and it won't take long for boredom to creep in again.

[reload]

What happened to weekly -*BAD WORD*- and Mothership? is that still going? Lets set up a dueling ladder too..

Well, Net hosted -*BAD WORD*- weekly a couple of months ago I think, but this seems to have died too. I can still remember that when I was ER>, about 2 years ago, Staff had a weekly schedule who had to host MotherShip. This was great fun. Too bad that MotherShip 2 aka MotherShip Advance isn't hosted anymore, because Elite One really did a -*BAD WORD*- fine job on that event.

 

A duel ladder sounds great, we've had a couple of Dueltourney's already and a lot of players participated.

[Rifleman]

What happened to weekly -*BAD WORD*- and Mothership? is that still going? Lets set up a dueling ladder too..

-*BAD WORD*- : Postponed until we can bring a spesific bot back up which basically gives ERs/Mods the powers to open doors, m!@#$%^&* warp freqs, etc.

 

Mothership : Great event, but it requires a large amount of players to be fun...

It usually takes around 4-5 advertisements to get 10 players, wheras 1-5 are speccers.

In general, this event is only hosted when we have many people in the zone.. 50- is a good figure as some are afk in spec, and around 4-6 are bots.

 

Thelma : It`s the rumble bot alright.. Perhaps the name should be more suggestive as you`re indicating.

 

Speedball : Great event, one of the top 5 hosted events imo. I think the arena name should be renamed as it indicates a ball is supposed to be used in the event, which is not the case.

 

2v2 bot : I know there is a tested league 2v2 bot in existance, though I haven`t heard of a event 2v2 bot yet ( Might be due to me being on christmas vacation ).

 

As always, new maps are welcome. We have a few mappers, but they don`t have the habit of waving a wand in front of SSME, creating a perfect map which everyone likes in a few minutes.

 

New pub map? I`d love to see the one with 2 safes on each side and flags in the base.. but that`s my opinion, and there are many other opinions on which pub map we should have.

 

When, and if, 17th should have a new pub map, it is in my opinion the vote bot should be used for the purpose of determining which map to use.

As a matter of fact, the latest vote results shows that only 33-40% of 17ths population reads the forums more than once per month, which is why I`m opting to use the vote bot.

 

 

In response to reload`s post about having to use the ?host command to get events hosted :

 

Getting a ?host event requests is a re-!@#$%^&*urance for the hosters whetever atleast some people will show up at the specified event.

It`s not uncommon for hosters to get only 1 or 2 players for a event during peak hours if they decide to f.ex host Race without getting a ?host event request.

 

Point : Use ?host, since it tells us what events which people want to be hosted at the moment.

 

As a side note :

Most - If not all - staffers are in staff because they want to help the community.

If you want events hosted nonstop with experienced, well trained unbiased hosts, then pay up. All staff basically do charity work, which isn`t paid - at all.

 

Now, back to my christmas vacation.. wohoo!

 

-Rifle

[DaKillaRoach]

naed, I wouldnt say you hvave the experiance, knowledge or eyesight to state what you said here about staff. I'll let you ponder on it while the rest of us know the truth.

 

And Rifle speaks alot of truth in his post, as long as we have people like him running the zone we will get somewhere. Now to just remove Vile

[Vile Requiem]

Whoever thinks I direct pub wherever it's going in the future is a complete idiot.

 

As far as that 2 safe map goes, I would like to see it up as well.

Only problem with that is Lovewar is on vacation, and he has the only copy.

 

If anyone DOES have a copy, forwarding it to Pern could (empathesis on could) expidite things on that front.

[Ladd]

And we have another ER (ER>kala) that is new, he has been trained and is doing great on his first day he hosted over one hour of 2v2, among other thing aswell. For a first day on the job that is exellent.

who the -*BAD WORD*- is Er>kala ?