Russia vs Georgia

[AstroProdigy]

Something Hoch forgot to mention in his sovereignty loving argument is that the west doesn't care about national sovereignty if it suits them. Serbia quelled an Albanian revolt and then killed more people than was appropriate and caused a refugee crisis in exactly the same way as Georgia. The land was Serbian land under Serbian sovereignty and the West had no right in terms of international law to invade. It was inappropriate in exactly the same way as Russia invading South Ossetia. The west also didn't limit its actions to Kosovo as they bombed Serbian areas outside Kosovo mainly in the same way as Russia (infrastructure and military targets). Then we supported Kosovo's declaration of independence despite the clear fact that under international law that declaration is clearly illegal in the same way as South Ossetia will after Georgia's invasion.

 

We can support the abstract concept of national sovereignty with borders that are usually arbitrary in ethnic terms or we can support self determination, but to only support those that are allied with the west against those who aren't will only encourage further conflict. No one likes hypocrites and when you're a hypocrite you have no moral right to criticize someone else for doing likewise. Is Russia being hypocritical? Absolutely. Is the US and just about every other country in the West being hypocritical? Absolutely. Even the countries like Spain and Romania that support the independence of neither only do it because the precedent threatens their own countries. There are no good sides to this and the victims are the people of South Ossetia who have to suffer from western hypocrisy. Does South Ossetia have the right to declare independence from Georgia and join Russia on moral grounds? Yes it does and Kosovo Albanians have the moral right to secede from Serbia as do Serbians in Kosovo from an Albanian dominated Kosovo.

 

In terms of international law none of them do and then countries support one or the other based on their own selfish interests. If you can show me a country that supports self determination regardless of their own interests or supports international law regardless of their own interests then that's the country you should pay most attention to with regard to these issues.

 

Again its the hypocrisy that's a threat to the world most of all.

Edited August 15, 2008 by AstroProdigy

[Aceflyer]

South Ossetia had already been de facto independent from Georgia for many years, and clearly did not want to be under Georgian rule. Morally, Georgia was not justified in its attempt to reclaim South Ossetia by force. Legally, as per previous U.N. Security Council resolutions, Georgia did have the right to act in South Ossetia as it saw fit, as Hoch has pointed out.

[AstroProdigy]

Legally so did Serbia in Kosovo in 1999 and our actions were the illegal ones.

[Aceflyer]

I could say: "Legally, in the American Revolution, the British were in the right and Washington & Co. were in the wrong."

 

That doesn't make it relevant to this thread. Please stop trying to drag the Serbia/Kosovo issue into this thread.

[FMBI]

Ace - stop using the gay font.

 

Also - One of Russia's main motivations for using this situation was the Kosovo issue. You can't dismiss it because it's "irrelevant" when it was a major influence in provoking the decision to react in the first place.

[Aceflyer]

Also - One of Russia's main motivations for using this situation was the Kosovo issue. You can't dismiss it because it's "irrelevant" when it was a major influence in provoking the decision to react in the first place.

 

Is there any evidence of this !@#$%^&*ertion that Russia invaded Georgia because of the Kosovo issue?

[candygirl]

End it did click me click me

[AstroProdigy]

Also - One of Russia's main motivations for using this situation was the Kosovo issue. You can't dismiss it because it's "irrelevant" when it was a major influence in provoking the decision to react in the first place.

 

Is there any evidence of this !@#$%^&*ertion that Russia invaded Georgia because of the Kosovo issue?

Ace if the US seceded from Britain today then legally Britain would have every right to invade and the US would have no rights to form a new country unless Britain agreed to it. That's just how international law is today. It's obsessed with protecting the sanc!@#$%^&*y of borders even if that requires a genocide and genocidal actions have been taken with the consent or lack of opposition from the west many times in the past several decades. I can recall the example of Biafra which paid for its fight for independence with the blood of a million dead and got nothing anyway. Even Sudan's many genocidal acts were only possible because of western obsession for the sanc!@#$%^&*y of borders that couldn't allow for groups that needed to be independent from being so.

 

Russia didn't invade Georgia because of Kosovo. They did it because Georgia started it, but part of the justification was related to Kosovo. The Serbian attack on Albanian rebels in Kosovo has so many parallels to the Georgian attack on South Ossetia as does Russia and the United State's response, respectively. That's the perfect excuse to recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia's right to self determination as more important than the sanc!@#$%^&*y of international borders and the sovereignty of pre defined states.

 

End it did click me click me

It looks like Russia responded to Georgian ethnic cleansing with its own ethnic cleansing. Georgia's invasion made reintegrating South Ossetia even more unlikely.

Edited August 16, 2008 by AstroProdigy

[Aceflyer]

End it did click me click me

 

Yep, it sure did. We all knew this was coming sooner or later, though.

[Bak]

Ace - stop using the gay font.

[Aceflyer]

Ace - stop using the gay font.

 

Quit whining about my font. SSForum.net staff please cleanse this thread of this off-topic whining as necessary.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Aceflyer

[Samapico]

But your font is ugly... :/

Ugly enough to not be worth typing that font= tag at every post

[CRe]

Ace - stop using the gay font.

 

Quit whining about my font. SSForum.net staff please cleanse this thread of this off-topic whining as necessary.

 

 

But your font is ugly... :/

Ugly enough to not be worth typing that font= tag at every post

 

[Aceflyer]

But your font is ugly... :/

Ugly enough to not be worth typing that font= tag at every post

 

Hehe... I dunno, I liked that TT font.

[Dav]

thread is too long to read so this has probably been said already.

 

Russia isn't trying to expand its borders. Instead as it is surrounded by pro-western states it is trying to create allies on its borders in order to strengthen its position.