Snrrrub Posted June 5, 2008 Author Report Posted June 5, 2008 Cerium, you have raised some valid concerns regarding the Oracle service so let me address them one-by-one: If his server decides to take a !@#$%^&* or is otherwise unavailable from the location your program is running from, your program no longer works. Prior to the Oracle, no application other than Continuum could connect to a server unless the user logging in was granted special privileges. Despite this restriction, many useful applications have been developed. As it stands, you are still free to develop applications that do not make use of the Oracle. If the Oracle is unavailable for any reason, your application can fall back to the SubSpace protocol and continue operation as before. Alternatively, if you feel that building a fault-tolerant application is not worthwhile, you can rely solely on the SubSpace protocol. The choice is entirely yours. You are no worse off with the Oracle than you were without it. As per Kirk's suggestion, I will add a ping packet to help you determine the liveness of the Oracle so that your application can decide which protocol to use before attempting a connection. If his server gets extremely lagged for whatever reason, your program becomes unstable. The stability of your program should not be affected in any way. If it's a transient problem and the Oracle cannot respond to a key expansion request, your application should re-initiate the connection request and ask for a new key. If there's a transient problem while you're connected, your application can try asking for a checksum response again. If the problem is persistent, you'll know that by pinging and getting an extremely delayed response. Keep in mind that after the login sequence, SubSpace is quite tolerant of transient delays. If he decides to change the ip/port/protocol, your program (or configuration, if you're smart) needs an update or it no longer works. As for the protocol, I will retain backwards compatibility and extend it when necessary. As for the ip/port: you should be using DNS to resolve the IP address and the port will stay constant. If you're still nervous about this, I can register the Oracle as a subgame server in the public directory servers. I'm more than willing to make this addition if it's in high demand. Further, what effect is this going to have if every player is essentially DOSing the Oracle server to stay connected? The security checksums happen every 2 minutes. Even if 2000 users were connected simultaneously 24x7 (which is approx. 2 times the current daily peak), that's a mere 17 requests per second to the Oracle. At 12 bytes per request/response pair, we're dealing with 204 bytes per second. Even with 20,000 concurrent users, we're still only hitting 2KB/s. Even if all 2000 requested at the same time, that's still 32KB in one second. I think a DoS from too many players is out of the question. Here's why the Oracle is better than releasing the code:1) The Oracle works with every language. If you've seen the Ctm .36 key expansion routine on my site, that's about 14,000 lines of !@#$%^&*embly converted to C. Ctm .40 is way worse. If I release the C, how is someone going to convert it to Java, or C#, or Perl, or Python or any other language out there? In some cases it may not even be possible since language features may prevent correct operation (e.g. lack of unsigned types, no unions, no pointers, potentially unsafe type casts, etc.) of the routines. 2) The Oracle works with every platform. There are things going on in the latest key expansion routines (e.g. Windows SEH) that make it virtually impossible to run on other platforms and architectures. With the code, you wouldn't be able to target, say, Mac OS X or mobile devices but you can with the Oracle. 3) The Oracle is resilient to key expansion / checksum changes. If the EXE checksum routine changes or the key expansion routine changes and you're linking against the code, you're going to have to re-deploy the application. Alternatively, I could update the Oracle and all applications would continue to work as if nothing happened. As Kirk and others have pointed out, releasing the code would make it trivial to write a cheat. Once it's out in the open, there's no taking it back. The only option we would have is to wait for PriitK to change the key expansion and checksum routines again. We would depend on him to "save us", which is what you're complaining about in the first place. I'm not interested in damaging the game in any way. I try to make as much information public as I can that would not result in cheats or hacks and my website is a testament to those values. I'm more than happy to have a mature debate, Cerium, but you will have a hard time winning me over with flames. -Snrrrub Quote
»doc flabby Posted June 5, 2008 Report Posted June 5, 2008 (edited) An MMO by the name of Ragnarok uses a fully authoritative server model, and it works quite well. Basically you make the server fully authoritative and then add "guessing" logic to the client. Basically what this does is that when the client issues, say, a weapons packet, it uses its _own_ logic to determine what the repercussions will be (much as our current client already does). This substantially reduces or entirely negates the inherent latency in a fully server authoritative system that would normally make implementation in a real time environment difficult. However once the server receives the weapons packet, it then responds by telling the client what _actually_ happened according to the servers fully authoritative check. If the two differ the client corrects its representation. This can sometimes cause minor jumpiness on laggy connections but imo thats better than our current model which can result in hitting your target on your screen but not on someone else's with no way of knowing whos representation was accurate. This is a very simplistic version of the same protocol that WoW uses (which is also fully authoritative).This works well for what are effectivly a form of "turn-based" game. However for real time games it causes lag issues. If you give this aritclea view it explains the problem. http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1370.asp The problem is the server doesnt "see" what the client does. If someone shoots a bullet that will hit you. !@#$%^&*uming 2 client and a server client 1 (90ms) -> weapon packet -> serverclient 2 (140ms) -> Position packet -> servernow by the time these packets reach the server the Client 2 appears to have "hit" the weapon. However on client's 2 screen they have dodged it. In Continuum, it !@#$%^&*umes the client is correct and you would live. (it would appear as an "eat" to client 1) However if you have it server authenticated, client 2 would die, even though the weapon appears to have missed. Part of the reason VIE settings are kinda delayed feeling is because were designed to "hide" this lag. In games where "real-time" is less important, or use a quasi turn based system like WoW, or RTS, this lag isnt noticeable, nor does it matter. Techniques that games like HL2 use, are what Continuum needs Edited June 5, 2008 by doc flabby Quote
»Ceiu Posted June 6, 2008 Report Posted June 6, 2008 Holy !@#$%^&*... where to begin? For starters: My tone didn't come across right last time because some !@#$%^&*head mod decided to edit my posts into something that resembles a flowery complement. I really meant to make fun of you on the internets, but that aside... You may be right in some of what you say but thier are a few important facts you are glossing over. 1) If the source code for the entire encryption and key expansion are released, it would be near trivial for anyone with a few hours of spare time to write a quick and dirty client that could join any existing zone and spray L4 bombs all over the place while being invincible, while at the same time using rotating public proxy's to byp!@#$%^&* any attempt at a ban. The strength of the BanG banning system relies entirely on the client providing accurate system data when logging in, with a custom client you would be reduced to nothing but IP address for banning, and anyone who was here when VIE dumped us knows how well _that_ worked out...How is that not possible now? The Oracle server allows the same capability to a programmer who had the source himself except without the work. If anything, this means that it's even more likely since the jack!@#$%^&* in question here won't have to do the hard part of porting the asm dumps that snusrasfga has taken the time to do. 2) Even if the source were only released to a select few "responsible" parties, you would still need to be an x86 !@#$%^&*embly genius in order to protect your executables from reverse engineering as effectively as Priit did with his. And of course you would need this creative genius once for every platform you intended to compile your program for.Again, see above. The protocol is open enough at this point for the level of abuse you described. Any damage that could be done in the doomsday scenarios described by the ctm source being open are now very possible. 3) Anyone who is a serious programmer knows how much it hurts when something you have slaved over to perfect is made invalid or obsolete by someone else. Say what you will about Priit and his apparent apathy to this community but he did help us and continues to albeit in small ways now. As a fellow coder it makes you think twice before delivering the ultimate insult of obsolescence.Shut the !@#$%^&* up. Having your !@#$%^&* obsoleted means you weren't working on it hard enough in the first place. This bull!@#$%^&* idea you've got that developing something gives you some level of en!@#$%^&*lement is exactly that -- bull!@#$%^&*.To reiterate my counter-point to this: Shut the !@#$%^&* up. Now, thier are 2 concievable solutions to this problem that come to mind, one of which we are all aware of, the other mabye not. 1) We all switch to ASSS, make it fully authoritative, and drop the Ctm encryption in favour of something more standardized and open sourced. Obfuscation is no longer necisary with a fully authoritative server. 2) Someone who _does_ have sufficient knowledge of !@#$%^&*embly be given the Ctm encryption, who will then develop a library with the necessary function calls to act as a client, but also add all necessary checks to make the library fully authoritative thus not allowing any cheating by clients of said library, then obfuscate its code as well as Ctm's. Either way its not a particularly easy question to answer, no one wants to be responsible for the second Twister, and I fully understand that in regards to Snrrrubs current decision.Blah blah blah. All of this is irrelevant babble chat spewed by someone who has a very loose grasp on the topic at hand and the situation being discussed. The only thing accomplished in this block was some more !@#$%^&* slobbering. Good points KirkSays the guy who unbanned his back-door writing, zone-stealing buddy. Don't you have a chainsaw you can jump onto? ...What are we relying on him for?...If you develop any application that uses his Oracle server, you and your program are relying on him to provide this service indefinitely. The day he takes down the server is the day your program dies. End of story. A chat client for the mortals who don't have VIP, hardly a massive reliance.Did you even read my post in it's entirety before responding? For a chat client, who cares -- you can use snruuub's idea to fall back to standard vie protocol w/permission. For a new game client (like Discretion or the ONE YOU'RE DEVELOPING), that's not an option. If he released the source we would be in a twister situation.Holy !@#$%^&* -- I'm seriously starting to wonder if this game is cheat-free only because the developers are idiot-savants. The Oracle service provides the exact same thing as the source would. The only difference is he has control, which is the problem I have with it. I personally think you need to look at the big picture, discretion is far from ready to replace continuum at this moment in time.Releasing the source now would simply destroy continuum without having a replacement client in place. Not to mention most of the zones rely on Prittk for hosting, by cutting off continuum, we cut off the only reason he still supports this game.(1) If anyone's not looking at the big picture, it's you for exactly the points I've laid out above.(2) No !@#$%^&* discretion isn't ready, but it's good you decide to tackle that topic when it's convenient for your non-argument. Good job.(3) Once again, the source to Oracle is no more dangerous than Oracle itself. Continuum encryption grows less and less important by the day, its more important we develop the replacement clients/servers imo Fully authoritative server will never work with this game imo. No real-time online game is fully authoritative, it causes problems with gameplay.The best you can do it try to make hacking the game difficult, or make it easy to spot/ban hackers.That's because !@#$%^&*es like you guys are willing to take whatever you can get instead of building on what tools you guys have. I'll cover this more after I'm done addressing the abundance of stupidity you guys decided to unleash on the internet. All that aside, and the fact that he simply can't release the source, because he's not allowed to. A lot of it was written for a business, so he doesn't own the licences to the source code, and I'm sure that his job means a lot more to him than some annoyed people on a 2D spaceship game. The information to byp!@#$%^&* all of the security checks is out there, it's all been released. All you need to do is test it and find out how to byp!@#$%^&* it yourself. -LynxWhat directly the !@#$%^&* are you babbling about? Cerium, you have raised some valid concerns regarding the Oracle service so let me address them one-by-one: ... Prior to the Oracle, no application other than Continuum could connect to a server unless the user logging in was granted special privileges. Despite this restriction, many useful applications have been developed. As it stands, you are still free to develop applications that do not make use of the Oracle. If the Oracle is unavailable for any reason, your application can fall back to the SubSpace protocol and continue operation as before. Alternatively, if you feel that building a fault-tolerant application is not worthwhile, you can rely solely on the SubSpace protocol. The choice is entirely yours. You are no worse off with the Oracle than you were without it. As per Kirk's suggestion, I will add a ping packet to help you determine the liveness of the Oracle so that your application can decide which protocol to use before attempting a connection.I guess that's a handy feature for the suggestion you've presented, but it doesn't solve the original problem. The simple fact of the matter is that it can not be relied on for anything important (see: new client). ... The stability of your program should not be affected in any way. If it's a transient problem and the Oracle cannot respond to a key expansion request, your application should re-initiate the connection request and ask for a new key. If there's a transient problem while you're connected, your application can try asking for a checksum response again. If the problem is persistent, you'll know that by pinging and getting an extremely delayed response. Keep in mind that after the login sequence, SubSpace is quite tolerant of transient delays.Do you honestly believe what you typed there, or have you simply never worked with an end-user? They're not going to understand the difference between a bug and their fancy chat client randomly disconnecting because some server they don't know about is lagged to all !@#$%^&*. They're going to !@#$%^&* about it being broken -- because it is. ... As for the protocol, I will retain backwards compatibility and extend it when necessary. As for the ip/port: you should be using DNS to resolve the IP address and the port will stay constant. If you're still nervous about this, I can register the Oracle as a subgame server in the public directory servers. I'm more than willing to make this addition if it's in high demand.You're smart enough to know that the points kirk brought up are almost entirely bull!@#$%^&*, but let's pretend for a second that someone decided to make a cheat client that uses Oracle to connect. How do you combat them? Do you ban their IP? What if they release it? Do you change the protocol so the cheat no longer works? Do you simply stop hosting it for the sake of cutting off the cheaters? (See my notes below for my thoughts on this). And this is just one scenario I can present to you based entirely off the mindless ramblings of some yes-man. You need to accept the fact that there are a plethora of possible reasons for you to want or need to change or drop the service. Further, what effect is this going to have if every player is essentially DOSing the Oracle server to stay connected? The security checksums happen every 2 minutes. Even if 2000 users were connected simultaneously 24x7 (which is approx. 2 times the current daily peak), that's a mere 17 requests per second to the Oracle. At 12 bytes per request/response pair, we're dealing with 204 bytes per second. Even with 20,000 concurrent users, we're still only hitting 2KB/s. Even if all 2000 requested at the same time, that's still 32KB in one second. I think a DoS from too many players is out of the question.Fair enough. However, what if one of the "utilities" that pops up has a bug that causes it to check more often than that? What if no one really notices and lots of people use it? You can't just go on !@#$%^&*uming the best case scenario. Here's why the Oracle is better than releasing the code:1) The Oracle works with every language. If you've seen the Ctm .36 key expansion routine on my site, that's about 14,000 lines of !@#$%^&*embly converted to C. Ctm .40 is way worse. If I release the C, how is someone going to convert it to Java, or C#, or Perl, or Python or any other language out there? In some cases it may not even be possible since language features may prevent correct operation (e.g. lack of unsigned types, no unions, no pointers, potentially unsafe type casts, etc.) of the routines. 2) The Oracle works with every platform. There are things going on in the latest key expansion routines (e.g. Windows SEH) that make it virtually impossible to run on other platforms and architectures. With the code, you wouldn't be able to target, say, Mac OS X or mobile devices but you can with the Oracle. 3) The Oracle is resilient to key expansion / checksum changes. If the EXE checksum routine changes or the key expansion routine changes and you're linking against the code, you're going to have to re-deploy the application. Alternatively, I could update the Oracle and all applications would continue to work as if nothing happened.Ick, marketing nonsense. I guess I'll address these one at a time: (1) People are smart and those with time and the ability can/will port it to their language of choice -- or simply learn asm.(2) Yeah? The source isn't exactly platform dependent, either.(3) This is the only valid point you've made. And while this is certainly a convenience, I could just as easily write my application to check my own server for updates and push a new encryption dll as necessary. Or post the new module on a website. Whichever. As Kirk and others have pointed out, releasing the code would make it trivial to write a cheat. Once it's out in the open, there's no taking it back. The only option we would have is to wait for PriitK to change the key expansion and checksum routines again. We would depend on him to "save us", which is what you're complaining about in the first place. I'm not interested in damaging the game in any way. I try to make as much information public as I can that would not result in cheats or hacks and my website is a testament to those values.... You're a smart enough guy -- how do you let yourself get convinced by such idiotic statements? Or is this just some bs so you don't have people !@#$%^&*ing at you? Whatever the case, I guess I'll bite (again... sigh).The source I've asked you to release is no more dangerous than your Oracle service. (For those of you not keeping up: The source would allow people to write programs which can use the continuum protocol to connect to a zone, where the Oracle service allows people to write programs which can use the continuum protocol to connect to a zone. Holy !@#$%^&*, it's the same thing oh noesssihfashf!).In fact, I would argue that the Oracle is even more dangerous for the very 3 reasons you posted above -- You don't have to be a great developer, it works on any platform/language, and it will auto-update for you. !@#$%^&*, I don't even have to look at a single line of !@#$%^&*embly if I don't want to. And, since you're a fairly seasoned developer, I shouldn't need to tell you where the majority of malicious programs come from. I'm more than happy to have a mature debate, Cerium, but you will have a hard time winning me over with flames. -SnrrrubI tried via email, away from the public eye where the information we discussed could give some random !@#$%^&* a bad idea. Not my fault you take 3+ weeks to reply. And if I wanted to simply flame you, I'd have done so. Don't get all butthurt because I used a naughty word in your direction -- It's going to happen a lot if you keep doing overly stupid things.-C P.S.For the love of christ, Kirk. Learn how to !@#$%^&*ing spell. ** Regarding the doomsday scenario described above:The one advantage the Oracle service you provide has that releasing the source will never have is control. Should cheats start showing up en-mass you still have the option to pull the Oracle and drop them all (at the small cost of killing any utilities also making use of it). However, by releasing the source, we'd need have to update the client. Both scenarios suck, but the latter is infinitely worse if we're still relying on Priit.I personally doubt it will ever come to it due to the fact that getting far enough to make a cheat worth using (aka, so the cheater can actually see what he's accomplishing) would require much more work than simply porting an asm dump of a checksum routine, and that in itself would stop the large majority of the people who would write one. ** Regarding other !@#$%^&*:If I forgot to cover something again... I'll probably say it 95125 times in my next reply. Quote
»D1st0rt Posted June 6, 2008 Report Posted June 6, 2008 It's possible that having some degree of control (Oracle) is the only thing keeping SSC from flipping their !@#$%^&* over this whole situation. (I assume we would have heard something by now if they were) Quote
»Ceiu Posted June 6, 2008 Report Posted June 6, 2008 If that's the case, it would have been nice if he had said that a month ago when I first emailed him. It would have saved the time I spent typing this !@#$%^&*. Quote
»doc flabby Posted June 6, 2008 Report Posted June 6, 2008 What are we relying on him for?...If you develop any application that uses his Oracle server, you and your program are relying on him to provide this service indefinitely. The day he takes down the server is the day your program dies. End of story.Well that would be your fault then for developing an app which relies on a webservice. I don't really see why this is a problem. I hardly see anyone rushing out to develop for the oracle service. Its been advailable for months now and this is the first app, written by the same person who wrote orcale.A chat client for the mortals who don't have VIP, hardly a massive reliance.Did you even read my post in it's entirety before responding? For a chat client, who cares -- you can use snruuub's idea to fall back to standard vie protocol w/permission. For a new game client (like Discretion or the ONE YOU'RE DEVELOPING), that's not an option.You honestly think either myself or bak are even considering using CTM or VIE encryption for a new client/server?In the case of my development, i'm rolling my own encryption method. I've already written my own ASSS module to support it. If he released the source we would be in a twister situation.Holy !@#$%^&* -- I'm seriously starting to wonder if this game is cheat-free only because the developers are idiot-savants. The Oracle service provides the exact same thing as the source would. The only difference is he has control, which is the problem I have with it.Not much point writing a hack that can be turned off with the flick of a switch. The same goes for apps Acctually there is little point writting additional apps for SS as there isnt much in the way left to write. We have all the apps we need, true, some need some improvement, but theres little demContinuum encryption grows less and less important by the day, its more important we develop the replacement clients/servers imo Fully authoritative server will never work with this game imo. No real-time online game is fully authoritative, it causes problems with gameplay.The best you can do it try to make hacking the game difficult, or make it easy to spot/ban hackers.That's because !@#$%^&*es like you guys are willing to take whatever you can get instead of building on what tools you guys haveI've already explained what i think the issues with authorive servers are in my reply to admirak kirk. They simply won't work onhttp://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/to...topic_id=472954Has some approaches to solving these issues, but i still problems with it. . I'll cover this more after I'm done addressing the abundance of stupidity you guys decided to unleash on the internet.I say cover it now, i'm interested to see what solution you suggest.You may critize my stupidity but, prehaps not everyone is as smart as you are. I can't necesserly see the connections you can. If theres an easier way of doing stuff i will of cource be interested. Quote
»Ceiu Posted June 6, 2008 Report Posted June 6, 2008 ...Well that would be your fault then for developing an app which relies on a webservice. I don't really see why this is a problem. I hardly see anyone rushing out to develop for the oracle service. Its been advailable for months now and this is the first app, written by the same person who wrote orcale. What the !@#$%^&*? That's exactly the point I've been making. You can't develop any serious application because you're relying on something that's unreliable (from a development pov). ...You honestly think either myself or bak are even considering using CTM or VIE encryption for a new client/server?In the case of my development, i'm rolling my own encryption method. I've already written my own ASSS module to support it. In that case, we need to make a huge distinction here: You're not making a new client, you're making a new game and advertising it to the people who currently play Subspace.The big problem here is that your target audience isn't going to download a new client to play on a server with a very small population -- especially since that server will isolate them from other people who are playing what is essentially the same game. Look at it like this: You'll have a problem getting people using your client for many of the same reasons we're having problems getting people to use a new biller. Now, if your client supported the ctm/ss protocol, not only could it be used as a replacement for the existing client, but also be expanded on newer ASSS servers. ZOMG, you have a user-base now! ...Not much point writing a hack that can be turned off with the flick of a switch. The same goes for apps Acctually there is little point writting additional apps for SS as there isnt much in the way left to write. We have all the apps we need, true, some need some improvement, but theres little demI agree. Again, this is the point of my whole !@#$%^&*ing rant; pay attention. And I imagine there would be more to write if we had more tools to use. I say cover it now, i'm interested to see what solution you suggest.You may critize my stupidity but, prehaps not everyone is as smart as you are. I can't necesserly see the connections you can. If theres an easier way of doing stuff i will of cource be interested. I actually meant I was going to cover other topics in the posts I was quoting as I thought of them. The other nonsense sprinkled throughout this thread doesn't interest me enough to bother addressing it. Quote
PoLiX Posted June 7, 2008 Report Posted June 7, 2008 http://www.ssforum.net/index.php?showforum=426 - per snrrrub, visit here for further off topic discussions. Quote
Acer Posted June 8, 2008 Report Posted June 8, 2008 (edited) http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/Acer1001/Capture2.png Thats the problem i'm getting...And i tried re-installing it... Edited June 8, 2008 by Acer101 Quote
ThunderJam Posted June 8, 2008 Report Posted June 8, 2008 Im on my new vista laptop and getting the same problem as acer above ^^^ Quote
»Purge Posted June 8, 2008 Report Posted June 8, 2008 You can download that specific DLL it asks for here: DLL Download. Place it in the Starlight directory. But also make sure that you have GTK+ installed. Quote
ThunderJam Posted June 8, 2008 Report Posted June 8, 2008 Yea made a mistake thats not the error mine gives, thats the error you get for no gtk... The one i get says this:"The procedure entry point g_!@#$%^&*ertion_message could not be located int he dynamic link libglib-2.0-0.dll" Quote
Snrrrub Posted June 12, 2008 Author Report Posted June 12, 2008 ThunderJam: which GTK+ installer did you use? I've heard that there are other GTK+ redistributables for Windows which are broken in the way that you describe. Also, do you have other GTK+ applications installed on your machine (e.g. Gimp, XChat)? There seems to be a version mismatch between GTK+ and Glib DLLs on your machine. Purge, it's not recommended that anyone download DLLs individually since GTK+ consists of many DLLs, some of which are tightly versioned. Everything that Starlight depends on is included in the ZIP file. Having said that, the site is pretty useful if a single DLL is missing which is often the case with certain applications. The next release will likely be a single executable that installs GTK+ if it is not already installed - clearly the current deployment method isn't sufficient. -Snrrrub Quote
ThunderJam Posted June 12, 2008 Report Posted June 12, 2008 This was on a brand new vista laptop, no GTk apps, installed gtk with whatever you had included in your package. Anyway ive "upgraded" to xp on this now anyway so i dont have the problem anymore Quote
ThunderJam Posted June 13, 2008 Report Posted June 13, 2008 It really has been an upgrade though. This machine was giving me just above average performance on vista, but it friggin flies on xp now. Quote
Steigerwald Posted June 22, 2008 Report Posted June 22, 2008 In theory the source could be used to connect via a pidgin plugin? Now that would be awesome. Quote
»D1st0rt Posted June 22, 2008 Report Posted June 22, 2008 Have you ever looked at the code required to write a pidgin plugin? I don't see it happening any time soon Quote
Dr Brain Posted June 22, 2008 Report Posted June 22, 2008 Yeah, there's very little do!@#$%^&*entation for pidgin plugins, and zero for protocol plugins. Quote
Steigerwald Posted June 22, 2008 Report Posted June 22, 2008 Never actually looked, but it was worth a try mentioning it. Quote
Dav Posted June 22, 2008 Report Posted June 22, 2008 Moving this topic to the starlight forum as it now has one Quote
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